Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Pellet deceptions

I've made the effort over the last couple of years to find ways to fool pellet trained fish. The bigger, smarter pellet pigs are virtually impossible to catch. Granted, these are fish that have very little competition from younger fish, so they can be very selective--but just the same, we throw every thing we can at them and the very nicest ones won't bite.

Anyway, here's a listing of some of the attempts, and a small evaluation.

1. Poking a hook through a dry pellet.

Strangely enough, this is one of the better methods in respect to fooling the fish. The problem lies in the fact that you'll crack open about twenty pellets for every one that the hook goes through. And the pellet never lasts very long.

Ranking: D


2. Poking a hook through a wet pellet.

Pretty much worthless. The pellet will fall apart every time. Even in those rare, rare cases that the pellet doesn't collapse, you can't cast it without looking like you were born without a shoulder joint.

Ranking: F


3. Pom-Pom fly

This method involves buying a craft shop pom-pom, and sticking a hook through the hole. Not a bad method considering that it has the advantage of easy hooking, and the fact that it catches fish regularly. The only problems are that the attractor isn't actually a pellet, so it has no smell, and it won't float.

Ranking: B


4. The "soften, then dry out" method.

This method provides for systematically wetting, then drying the pellets. The goal is to get the pellet to a play-dough type consistency during it's drying process so the hook goes through without breaking it. It works really well, and catches fish, but has a big disadvantage in that one caught fish, or one bite even makes the pellet fall off and you have to re-tie a new hook, which is a huge hassle.

Ranking: B-


5. George's PH foam fly

Best fly for BG and HSB when stored in Ziplock bags with ground up fish food.
Use AQMX 600 size to “cull” small BGs – just right size for large BG.
Fish closer to feeder for BG and outer edges of feed “cone” for HSB.

Disadvantage for HSB is hard strike “wake” pushes fly away from fish’s mouth.
BG and HSB don’t get hook shy when feed has been limited for a couple of days and they are on a competitive feeding frenzy.
When on normal feeding schedule, in calm water they are more leader shy than hook shy.

One thing I've discovered is that this pellet seems to do really well for me right at dusk. I've had some very picky fish that wait until the last light to feed, and one of George's flies, properly placed really seems to fool the big fish that are hitting right at dusk.

I've been using this deception exclusively with my fly rod. It seems to work best this way.


Ranking: A


6. Cecil's pantyhose fly

Very pleasant surprise here. Just tried it the other night. It involves wrapping one, two or three actual pellets in some panty hose. When I first looked at it I was slightly skeptical because it didn't really look like a pellet. It took me exacly fifteen seconds to hook a fish on it though. Performed beautifully. It had the advantage of the fish attacking it, then even after catching three or four fish there was some pellet left in the pantyhose. Eventually the pellet dissolved out, but it was extremely simple to put on a new attractor. Just snip off the hose with some fingernail clippers and put on a new one. Very slight problems, with the fact that you actually have to construct these little fish killers, but it's a small price to pay.

Ranking: A+


7. Bill Cody's softened pellets.

I haven't tried this yet, but it's next on my list. Maybe bill can edit this post with a description of the method.

Ranking: none yet.


8. The NEDOC pellet presentation.

Haven't tried this one yet either, but NEDOC describes using a segment of a brown tube jig and "stuffing" it with a pellet, then running a hook between the pellet and the rubber body. Theo has already confirmed it's success, and I plan to try this in the spring.

Ranking: None yet

Bruce, I have tested extensively your PomPom, Cecil’s PH fly, and my foam PH pellet fly.
They are difficult to catagorize becasue I find that those different flies are used for different species under differing circumstances.
.
My ranking, for what it’s worth:

PomPom:
Best used for CC
Has been successful for CC, but is too large to attract surface feeders since fly sinks.
First time used caught 17 CC in two evenings and lost several long distance releases.
Each time used after being hooked, caught less and less due to hook shyness.
RANK C

Cecils, PH fly:
Best fly for CC and GC with 3 pellets in PH bag.
CC and GC get “hook-shy” fast.
RANK B

Foam PH fly:
Best fly for BG and HSB when stored in Ziplock bags with ground up fish food.
Use AQMX 600 size to “cull” small BGs – just right size for large BG.
Fish closer to feeder for BG and outer edges of feed “cone” for HSB.

Disadvantage for HSB is hard strike “wake” pushes fly away from fish’s mouth.
BG and HSB don’t get hook shy when feed has been limited for a couple of days and they are on a competitive feeding frenzy.
When on normal feeding schedule, in calm water they are more leader shy than hook shy.
RANK A

Three year experience using PomPoms, Cecil’s PH fly, and george’s PH foam fly:
GC: ~10+ accidental hookups on Cecil’s PH and foam PH fly - three landed

CC: Dozens caught on all three test flies– dozens remain to be caught on development of a dynamite fly.

HSB: Dozens caught and still catchable on foam PH fly at the rate of a couple /hr most days.

CNBG: 6 - 10” catchable on foam PH fly at rate of 20 –30 /hr.

These observations are based on my experience only, and may not hold true under all conditions.
“IT ALL DEPENDS”

Bruce PM me your mailing address and I’ll send you some PH foam flys to field-test.

Bruce<

RE: #3

Have you tried a small round piece of foam, like from a pillow or craft shop, the color of pellets soaked in one of the liquid fish attractors. I've seen them for Crappie, Trout "Game Fish", and even worm and crawdad smells. They also have sprays of the various scents.

I read somewhere that you only have to be 2% smarter that whatever you are trying to do to accomplish your goal. Not sure if the guy who said that was a fisherman.

Dan

No, I haven't. Interesting idea. I have fish attractors that I buy about every year--then never use. Sounds like it's worth a try! Thanks.

You just don't see fishing tips like these in "In Fisherman" or "Field & Stream"

FWIW,
i dont know if you can get "pro-cure" bait scents anywhere outsided CA......you might look on-line......good stuff maynard.

I mashed up some pellets and added water. Then I soaked foam flies overnight. They sunk when I tried to use them. OK makes sense.

Guys,

If you're trying to catch fish that are conditioned to eat pellets why would you want to use something that smells different? Seems to me match the hatch applies here.

I have had brown trout in a pond to 12 pounds that would not touch a nitecrawler or minnow. Wanted nothing to do with them. But as soon as you throw out the pantyhose pellet all hell breaks loose. And I can also tell you flies or pieces of foam tied to look like a pellet were not very effective without the scent.

AGREED ...
But strongly and respectfully disagree on your premise that foam flies are not as effective as using the real pellet.

Cecil, if I had to catch one fish with one fly, I would use the genuine fish pellet.
I don't have to do that as you do on a business basis.

I can only catch one fish on a real pellet when it becomes "squishy" and unusable.
I catch 10-12 fish on a foam pellet fly before being destroyed.
I have thoroughly tested this method.

I agree that it is difficult to catch fish on a hook with a piece of foam only, but store them in a Ziplock bag with ground up fish food pellets and they area as effective as the real McCoy.

I credit you for the idea of a "panty hose" fly, but improvements on innovations are inevitable.

Don’t know much about brown trout – you are the expert.

Guess it’s pretty much a case of what our friend Bill Cody says – “It All Depends”

Yep it all depends George.

I think our differences may be due to different species. The brown trout is well known in fishing circles as a very picky shrewd customer. I've also been told that trout not only have very keen eyesight but they have a keen sense of smell too. One fish farmer told me they can find the pellets in turbid water by their sense of smell. It's well known that during a hatch in a trout stream fly fishing for brown trout, if you aren't matching the hatch exactly in appearance and size you might as well pack up and go home.

As far as reuse of the PP fly I have several tied up ahead of time and simply put another one on when the previous one falls apart. However I've used the same one on as many as a dozen fish. Your hybrid striped could be another story. And for some reason for largemouth bass, I have better luck putting a very small split shot on the line with a very small ice fishing float as a strike indicator. Even though the bass are conditioned to feed on floating pellets, they seem to really go for a slow sinking pellet. I think it has to do with their laziness, as a slow sinking pellet is easier to inhale vs. taking the trouble to take one off the surface.

One more thing: I'm flattered by your comment that I am the expert but I am still learning. I don't consider myself an expert by any means.

Cecil, its interesting to learn about different species from folks in different parts of the country. It wouldn’t be happening without this forum and now a bonus opportunity with Lusk’s annual conference to know many of you as friends.

Wish I could help you “collect” your humongous brown trout, but trout fishing is limited for me unless I travel, and don’t need to do that anymore with our ponds.

My best “Bow” was caught in a N. Georgia river.
I caught it on scud fly, but it was burping fish pellets from upstream feeders.

Wow I bet he put a bend in your fly rod!

Cecil, I’ve got to “eat crow” about foam/vs. “real”ph pellet flies.
Do I eat with mustard or ketchup – or is that when you have to “eat your own words?

Anyway….this morning I tried again your version ph fly at HSB “grow –out” pond for transfer to main pond, after much frustration with numerous un-successful attempts with the foam version.

I have some huge “cull” Arkansas strain CNBG in this pond that I removed from main pond. They have intimidated the HSB stockers into complete submission and won’t take anything short of dynamite – so I tried your version on them

Caught 5, 10-11 inch HSB stockers on 10 of your flies, but couldn’t keep the small BG’s off them…
They work...

Went to main pond and caught 10 or 12 HSB 2 - ~5# on foam ph flies tho….!!! :p

I’ll tie up a bunch of your version for next week’s “transfer fish” because they don’t last long with HSB…
Thanks..

Heck George, it sounds like the fish were biting that day.

I've edited my original post to include data from George's foam fly. It's been very effective. Although I've severly curtailed my angling at my own ponds because the water is very, very warm, this has been a good way to scratch the itch if I have a free five minutes before returning home.

Bruce and Cecil, a quick up-date on pellet flies.

If not for Cecil’s pantyhose fly, with actual AQMX pellet, I would have never known that we had 1.5# RES in our “grow-out” pond..
Cecil’s pellet fly sinks to where the RES live - I can’t keep small or larger sizes off the hook.
SERENDIPITY...

Regarding the foam pellet flies, sometimes the darker pellets work best – sometimes the lighter brown works best – maybe same as lures and flies – dark colors cloudy days/ stained water - light/bright colors - clear water – sunny days…

FWIW - Foam pellet fly my over-all choice.
Cecil’s ph pellet fly for special usage...
"It all depends"

Ps: Observe an AQMX pellet fly dropped into a glass of water.
It will swell up and change from a dark brown to a very light color.

(I just reread Bruce's original, editted post).

Last year, I had virtually the same experiences Bruce did with dry, wet, and wet-then-dried feed pellets, except I don't think I had the patience to atttempt hooking enough dry pellets to actually get one on a hook instead of just shattering. My results with wet-then-dried pellets were 1) hook a fish - 50% of the time and 2) need a new pellet after one cast - 100% of the time.

This year I have not run out of my favorite bait, earthworms, yet because I sort of killed off all my wife's strawberry plants last winter (it was an accident, honest) and I have been sneaking out and watering the dead strawberries 3-4 times a week to keep the worms there active and shallow. Once or twice a week I turn over a little bit of the patch and get some more worms.

I think I will try Cecil's ph pellet bundles, when I can find some old ph and spend a little indoor time tying them up some night. Bruce's review of them is very encouraging.

I have some pom-pom and foam pellets flies (thanks to some good PB friends!) to try after I've had enough practice time to be able to actually cast with a fly rod, instead of just making gordian knots.

Bruce: How hot is the "very, very warm" pond water at the Conderosa?

83-85 degrees. Ouch. No dead yellow perch, though.

What depth did you take that temp? I cannot believe this, it's raining again here! I was headed down with my father today but will wait and check weather. I will check my temps. Will be an interesting comparison. I was 85 last year at this time (pond filled for first time on 7/4 and 7/5 '06.
http://s19.photobucket.com/albums/b165/ahvatsa/?action=view¤t=DSCN4038.jpg

Al is that the same day it overflowed ?

My ponds are circulated, so there is very little stratification.

I'm 82-83 deep and 85 shallow. Super high oxygen at all depths however.

I have had good results with pellets wrapped up in a dish towel (don't let the wife know)and crushing them to a powder, put in bowl and add 1 egg to bind together, then roll into small balls about the size of a larger pellet. You can use them as is or you can add them to boiling water for about 20 seconds. They stay together pretty good and if boiled I can catch several fish on one ball. Works for me.

this is my first post, great mag. even better info. i recently tried a pantyhose fly on my trout pond. worked great on both bt & rt, but did catch more bt

Welcome aboard, AP!

We're glad you've joined us.

Bruce