Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations New pond project

Siphon would be super-easy!

Of course flow rate is going to be based on pipe diameter and change in elevation from surface of water to surface of water. I would try and get a bunch of 2" black water line and fittings (or larger if possible). Also some fittings with a Venturi pump in order to use a hose to start the siphon effect (vacuum out the air). It would be tough to do by sucking on the pipe with your mouth.

http://www.aquamerik.com/catalogue/produits.cgi?category=pompes_asuccion&lg=eng

Keep in mind you probably don't have enough pressure to be able to afford aerating the water, so the water will come out oxygen poor.

Once it proves out, you can bury the pipe and make it permanent.

Try a trash pump on it. Could use that to start the siphon. You could also make a stream and have the water enter the pond that way. Running the water over rocks/ etc will get rid of any bad gases and add oxygen.

Thanks, lassig. I just got back from the store with pvc items - I'm trying to do it with a hose down into well connected to a "t" fitting out side of the well connected to another hose running down to the pond. The top of the "t" will be used to fill both hoses, then I go to the pond and uncap that end and hopefully that will work.
After saying all that, I like the idea of the trash pump - I've got a 3" one. Once I get the water running, could I turn off the trash pump and would the siphon still work?
Thanks...

Looks like all the making for a natural waterfall coming soon to a place near you. Really when you have a siphon situation a multistep waterfall can be used for aeration near the end. It also generally comes in handy if your married to say hey honey, why dont we make you a pretty little flower bed with a waterfall next to the pond. We can put a table next to it to sit, relax and listen to the water fall.

If your water surface in the well is 30 feet below grade I believe you are right at the maximum height a siphon will pull. Not positive though.

jsec is right, the siphon didn't work. That's just to far to pull water with garden hoses.
I'm going to rig up my trash pump and give it a shot.

Trash pumps work best when the pump is closest to the water source (aka- the shortest suction hose as possible). Most will state the it can pull water up about 20'. It will be interesting to see if it does work. It may, with just a slower GPM than it would under normal circunstances.

Getting the trash pump primed might be a challenge!

I'm in the process of getting all of my pieces (pipes, pvc etc) put together and will test it tomorrow. Esshup made a good point about priming - I think I can rig it up so I use the last 15' of the old trash pump hose that will allow me to fill all 60' of hose going down into the well. If I can get the water up to and through the pump, it's all down hill to the pond. Do you think I need to prime or would I have a better chance with the pump pulling the water straight up - I can use a standard 1.5" or 2" pvc pipe with an open end at the bottom of the well and try to suck the water up the final 30' to the pump or use the old trash pump and fill all the way up to the pump. Which would be best?
As a reminder, the well appears to be 60' deep with 30' of water. Obviously, I'm hoping for a huge amount of water and not just 30' of water x a 6" pipe!!! We should know tomorrow. Thanks for the interest and suggestions.

After seeing how long it takes for a 3" 16,000 gph trash pump to prime itself trying to suck water up 8', I think you'll have better luck if you give it all the help priming that you can. I had to keep the clean-out on top of the pump cracked open so the air would escape and it still took 5 min or so to get it primed by itself. There was water in the discharge hose, but the pump would keep sucking air that was in the suction hose. I'd keep the cap cracked so the air could get out, and step on the discharge hose get more water in the pump.

It might be easiest to put a foot valve (check valve) on the end of the suction line drop it into the well then fill the suction line before you connect it to the pump.

I would put a "foot valve" at the end of the pipe that goes into the well. It keeps the water from back flowing. Then open the fill valve at the pump and fill the whole pipe going into the well. When the water stops going in, close the valve at the pump and start her up.
What's nice about this setup is that when you shut the pump down for an hour or a week, you don't have to reprime it every time.

Whatever size pipe you have in the well restricts how many GPM the pump can move, no matter how big the outflow pipe is. However, smaller might be better in this case, because how far you are trying to pull the water. The pump is not going to work as good as it is rated because of the pulling distance. Then if that water level drops in your casing, it is going to have to pull further, creating even more work on the pump. Hopefully the water level never drops.

Pumps can push water more easily than pull water. That is why a submersible pump works better.


.....Yep, he beat me in typing my response.........

Thanks guys, back to the hardware store, but thanks to your suggestions, I know how I'm going to do this - hopefully!!

Well, here's the latest. I put a regular well pump in the well and got water to flow. There's not much water there - it flowed for 9 minutes at first, and then yesterday I tried it again and it flowed for 15m+ before I cut it off (it was still pumping). Looks like about 2 gpm, so not worth the effort, but I'll find some use for it in the future.
Since the last update picture it has rained once. Some water accumulated, but I pumped it out again, and added bentonite to certain areas, and raked and packed and have it as ready as it will ever be. Just waiting for some rain. Also, I'm going to pump from the creek like I did last year. I will probably try a different type of pump - last year I used a deep well pump tilted at a 45 degree angle. It worked fine, but I ran it for about 3.5 months 24/7 and I burned it up. More about the pumps later. For people that haven't read this thread, I'll be pumping from a creek that is 75' below my pond and 300' away. I'm leaning toward a 2" gas trash pump, but do have power at the creek, so I'm open to suggestions...
The picture below shows some water I pumped in yesterday. Oh, one other thing, I have routed the water from the roof to the pond also - I connected the well hose and the run-off hose that you see in the bottom.

How big of hose/line did you use the first time in filling the pond?

Used 1", and only got about 12gpm. Could I use the 2" trash pump with the 300'
of 1" pvc pipe? Also, I'll need to do something to try an increase the amount of gas the pump will hold. The pump will be set next to the creek, and pull the water up about 5' before it pushes it up to the pond.

I disconnected the gas tank on the pump, and connected up an outboard motor tank. I'll make a pile of dirt so the tank is higher than the pump. Just make sure the vent is open on the remote tank, and I also like to have a shut-off in the fuel line somewhere.

I've had better luck with a remote tank that has the line coming out of near the bottom of the tank vs. one that comes out the top. The little motor on the pump doesn't suck as much fuel as the outboard, and any little air leak will let the line lose prime, causing the pump to stop. That won't happen with a tank with the fuel line near the bottom.

That's why I asked the size you used, to get a better handle on your situation. You could use the old 1" line. However, I would tend to go 2" if that's what your pump is. You can shop around and find the discharge hose lower priced sometimes. Heck, if you lived closer I would lend you mine, but the shipping is a killer. If you switched to 2", you'll be amazed how much faster the filling will go. I am guessing that it will push aprox 3 times the volume of water than the 1". I had it all figured out at one time when I needed it. Another benefit, you would get more volume of water per gallon of gas. If you could rent a 4" trash pump and hose, I would imagine that you could get it all filled in a day or two (maybe others would know exactly). Of course, your water source would have to keep up with it.

Thanks, for the help. Scott, if it were possible, could I take the cap off of existing tank and tightly seal another tank (rubber made container or 1-2 gal jug) on top - making a much larger gas container. Don't know why that wouldn't work if it were sealed properly.
F&C, Unfortunately, I buried the 1" pvc with the power lines (in the same hole) and it would be risky for me to replace the 1" with 2". As you mentioned, I don't think my creek could keep up with a 4", but a 2" is possible. I'm hoping for some rain, and then see how much water is needed, plus that should raise the creek back to where it was last year.
A few years ago, when I was building a larger lake, I went to a Fire Station in Atlanta and asked about buying some old fire hoses for water transfer - they gave me hundreds of feet of hose free! It worked great...

If you can seal it tightly, then it should work. But, remember that the cap that is on the tank now is a vented cap. If the gas from the added-on tank leaks, you might have a fire.

All I did was pulled off the fuel line from the carb and attached the new one. Not a lot of monkeying around at all. Just make sure the tank on top is empty if you do it that way.

Hi Randy-I had a similar situation to yours, with respect to distance and height, pumping water from a pond to a garden for irrigation.



As a fairly inexpensive and easy to install compromise, you could try using the 1 1/2" black pipe that can be obtained at HD or Lowe's in 50 or 100' rolls. My 2" pump, the cheapest one I could get at TS, seemed to tolerate this increased resistance without any ill effect, and the amount of water moved is impressive. Pump has not been babied and still going strong after 3 years, I don't run it all the time, but many many hours each season.

Oh, and Scott, that's a GREAT idea on the gas tank! I've been trying to think of something to allow the pump to run for a long time.

Thanks guys. Scott, I like your idea - it was dark this eve, I and didn't get a chance to see how hard it will be to do what you suggested. I'm going out of town for a couple of days but will figure it out when I get back. Yolk, I have found a lot of black pipe down in the woods (200+'). The word is the previous owner tried to pump water up the hill to a swimming pool. Do you think that if the first 200' from pump to pond is 2" and then the last 50-100' is 1.5" black pipe, it will work?? The 2" trash pump that I have works great, too. I've used it many, many times and it still works great.

I would sure think it would work.....as I mentioned, the pump I use is able to accomplish the lift through a 1.5" pipe, and I would think that the weight of water though a 2" pipe, though much more than in a 1.5" pipe, would be more than offset by the reduced resistance through the thicker tube. If I recall correctly, the pump came with a vertical rating, but I can't remember what it was.

I'd try to use the tools [tubes] at hand as much as possible before I bought anything-that's how I started with the 1.5" in the first place.

Remember also that air cooled engines can sometimes burn a little more oil than liquid cooled ones, and for that reason they usually come equipped with low oil shutdown systems when they are to be used in an extended run type of situation, such as on a generator. Trash pumps may or may not have this option from the factory, depending on the engine manufacturer.

If they don't, and you increase the run time by adding an external fuel tank, be aware that you need to remain vigilant about checking your oil...

Good point Tony! My engine is a Honda, and it has that feature. The guy that helped renovate my pond had a Mitsubishi engined one that did NOT have that feature. The sand that it was sitting on eroded, and the pump tipped over while it was running. It didn't run for long after that and fixing the oil starved motor would have cost more than buying a new one.