Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations New pond

Beautiful fish.

Generally speaking, which would you consider hardier...BG or CNBG?

First, I concur 100% with what ESSHUP says above.

One more thought to muddy your thoughts, and it isn't something you have to decide on immediately. But, somehow none of us mentioned the possibility of hybrid striped bass (HSB).

They are hardy. They pretty much come feed trained. They grow fast. They are fun to catch. They are delicious. And, they do well in nearly all U.S. climates.

Like the catfish, these would be "put and take" fish -- that is, they are not going to reproduce in the pond. You have to restock ever year or two, depending on how many you take out each year.

These photos are from a small Pond Boss gathering at our friend Sunil's pond in southern Pennsylvania. It shows Todd3138 with one of Sunil's hybrid striped bass and "Rainman" Rex with one of Sunil's largemouth bass. The two species can co-exist quite well. Through good management, Sunil has a fishery that most pond owners wish they could have.





Sunil also has small mouth bass, yellow perch, bluegill, trout, and I don't know what all else in his pond. The small mouth bass, yellow perch, and trout probably would not do well in your southern location, but you have other opportunities. The ponds in our mountainous area are frozen over this time of year, and they don't get real warm in the summer, so we can raise different fish than you can raise. But, you too have many types of fish to choose from.

Just more to mess with your mind ...

Good luck,
Ken

Thanks for all the comments! I went back and printed out a list of all the Fish Acronyms yall have. Someone's got this to a science! But.... I think you left out one (ACC) ???? Humm What about Albino Channel Catfish?? Yes I said it Albino has anyone on here stocked these fish? I have the opportunity to do this and I was wondering if this would work in a LMB pond? I thought the ACC would not get over populated because the bass could see them easily and eat them up?? Maybe I am getting to carried away. I am just excited I guess. So if I stock ACC, CNBG, LMB. CNBG first wait after they spawn then add the ACC and LMB????

HV

Search for Albino Catfish

One caution -- albino catfish are not "white catfish" as alluded to in the link Omaha posted. I have white catfish in my pond, however they are not albinos, and only their whiskers, bellies and lower sides are white. White catfish look very much like channel cats, but they are stockier, and they do not grow nearly as big. They are native to streams and rivers that dump into the Chesapeake Bay and the Gulf of Mexico, and a few other places in the south and eastern US.

The albino catfish that I am familiar with are true albinos, and the ones commonly sold are albino channel catfish. They are just channel catfish that are devoid of pigment, just like albino rabbits or deer.

Also, channel catfish generally will not successfully reproduce in small ponds. They are mostly a put-and-take fish unless you have a pond of several acres or more. If they do reproduce, and you have bass, the fry will quickly get wiped out. The young catfish tend to be very slow reacting and they congregate in large "balls" that predators can wipe out pretty quickly.

Can anyone shed any light on this? I would like to make sure I don't pass along incorrect information, if in fact I haven't already.

I doubt that you will find CNBG North of the Mason-Dixon line due the cold winters.

Ken, CC will spawn in smaller ponds if they have spawning habitat. They are cavity spawners, so by placing 30 gallon drums with one end cut out, or other similar containers in the proper locations around the pond, they'll spawn in smaller ponds.

The acronym list is no means complete, it's a work in progress.

So I can ask the hatchery folks or ask you guys... Can someone tell me the ratio of CNBG to CC to LMB. I will stock CNBG first then after 2 or so spawns stock CC and LMB?? Why couldn't I stock the CNBG and CC together? Then later stock the LMB? And for my size of pond .65 20% of pond will be covered in structure? Sounds a little much 5,000 sq give take? Maybe someone can help with the math a little better.

Sprkplug: thanks for asking about the BG to CNBG. I could stock both but not sure about ratio. I just want to get the stocking ratio correct the first time and manage this pond correctly. I am getting a water test should I wait for the water to get clearer we have had a good bit of rain lately. Here in the south we should stock Jan - March so I have a bit of time.

Thanks again,

HV

Essup, yes they are cave spawners. I lived in Natchez, MS for a long time and we would take drums make holes in the drums let them be for a week then go back and pull the drum up and catfish would be in them. Never went "grabbin" though. They would get in the water gloves on and swim down to catch them either out of the ground or in drums.. I guess if I can catch the CC with line and hook I could use this method.

HV

HV, your math is right on the area.

As for stocking rates, what are your goals for the pond? Large LMB, large BG? Or something different?

Esshup, my goals would be LMB pond if I could not have it that way I would go CC/BG pond. Hey at this point what taste better LMB or CC?? LOL. Question on pellet fed LMB will the LMB still eat out the CC before they got to a good size? I assume LMB will eat both but my chances will go up to having 2lb CC at some point??

HV

I believe Lusk once said that you can stock cats with the fatheads and BG.

If you stock BG and CNBG, expect a lot of crossbred mutts.

In .65 acres LMB can turn into a problem due to overspawning. I would rethink that idea. And, the smaller the pond, the more hookshy they can become.

If you are going to feed, and stock 6"-9" CC, your CC will be 2# in a year. If you stock feed trained LMB, I'll bet you would see about the same growth on the LMB.

I think LMB are easier to catch than CC, especially if the fish has been caught once before.

Taste is a personal thing, it all depends on how they're cooked.

With your sized pond, you will have a more "fishing friendly" BOW if you go with managing for large BG rather than large LMB. You can have a lot of 1#-2# LMB, plenty of panfish and some CC.

Yes, you'll have mutts with the CNBG/BG mix, but they won't be inferior mutts.

I like Ken's suggestion of tossing in some HSB. They fight hard, but OTOH, they will just about fight to the death when the water is warm. Either plan on catch and keep when the water temps are warm, or make a O2 tank to revive the fish like George1 did.

If the CNBG are from good genetics, you could see 9" or larger fish within a year. See ewests post above.

If you want to manage the pond for large BG with LMB and CC as a secondary fish, then the LMB overspawning will work to your advantage.

Ok so if I go this weekend to the hatchery and get CNBG or BG how many inches and how many? At this point it will be ok to get CC and how long how many? How long do I wait to put in the LMB how long and how many? If I can get this answered I'll be all set minus the water sample which I can bring my water and they will test it for free at the hatchery.

HV

Find out and post what the hatchery has that you can get -right now if you show up. Nothing worse than having a plan and haveing to scrap the whole thing because the hatchery does not have one part of the order.

So BG are hardier than CNBG. Thanks esshup, that's what I thought.

Are CNBG the same as BG? If they are different what is the difference?

CNBG are different from BG as they were native to southern parts of the country mainly Florida I believe. They grow faster than BG but water temperatures around 46 F give CNBG problems and may experience a fish kill.

Sounds good but what makes a CNBG? Like Warmouth hybridize (crossbreed) with bluegill and green sunfish. The reason why I am asking is that I can not find CNBG. All I can find is. Bluegill, Green sunfish, Longear sunfish, Redbreast sunfish, Redear sunfish, Warmouth.

Can anyone answer what makes a CNBG?? Or is that another name for BG??

HV

CNBG, Lepomis Machrochirus Purpurescens, are a subspecies of Northern strain BG, Lepomis Machrochirus Machrochirus. They share many of the same qualities and preferences, with a few exceptions, the most notable being the CNBG intolerance for colder water, as jludwig mentioned. They appear to be the faster growing of the two strains, and I have seen it reported that they will achieve a larger size than the northern strain. The recent pictures posted over at BBG by Bruce Condello, showing northern strain fish pushing the three pound mark does tend to make one wonder, however.

They can display a distinct copper colored spot, or band on their noses, from which they get their name.

Almost all sunfish can hybridize. A BG and CNBG cross is not hybridization as they are the same species. They do not have bad offspring. BG are more cold tolerant. BG are not hardier in southern climates. Either BG or CNBG or both will do well in south MS. CNBG will get a little bigger and grow a little faster in that location. I will post and old article I wrote for PB.

Not sure this is the final copy that went in PB mag. Order the mag so I don't get in trouble with Bob for posting old articles ( I don't do this much and not at all with new articles)

THE CUTTING EDGE – SCIENCE REVIEW
By Eric West


Coppernose Bluegill vs. Regular Bluegill – which one for you?


A question we often get on the Pond Boss Forum is should I stock Regular Bluegill Lepomis macrochirus macrochirus or Coppernose Bluegill Lepomis macrochirus mystacalis also previously classified and referred to as Lepomis m. purpurescens . To answer that question we should look at the traits of both and use the one that will work best for the particular goals for the water in question. As we all know traits come from genetics. So what is the difference in the genetics of Coppernose vs. Regular Bluegill? Well it started a long time ago and it took a long time to get there. Here is the basic story. Millions of years ago peninsular Florida was, like it is today, connected to the mainland. Bluegill were present all over the eastern US. Sea level rose and peninsular Florida was cut off by the sea from the mainland creating two separate populations. Bluegill on both the mainland and on the peninsula continued to evolve separately each influenced by local conditions with a divergence time of roughly 2.3 million years. After a few million years of this separate path sea level fell and the two land masses were connected again. However the two bluegill sub-species were now a little different genetically. The rivers were connected and the two subspecies migrated and integrated in a zone along the deep southeast where the two sub-species mixed. If this sounds familiar it should – it’s the same story as the Florida Largemouth Bass and the Northern Largemouth Bass where the divergence time between Northern (M. salmoides) and Florida (M. floridanus) bass is approximately 2.8 million years. If you know one story you should have a fairly good idea of outcome of the other. Surely as a pond owner you have heard the bass story. Florida Bass get bigger under the proper circumstance and do not due well in cold climates. Yes Bluegill have a similar story.

Coppernose Bluegill get bigger under the right circumstance but do not flourish in colder climates. In fact Coppernose are susceptible to poor results and substantial winter kill in northern US regions as are Florida Largemouth Bass. So how do you tell Coppernose and Regular Bluegill apart. Take a look at the pictures included. The Coppernose has a copper band across its head/nose in adult males, has fewer and wider vertical bars, has orangish/red fin margins and tail coloration , 12 anal fin rays and often light/white fin edges most visible when young. The Regular Bluegill has 11 anal fin rays and none of the other traits mentioned.

So how do they compare? Here are some points from a study on the subject titled Performance Comparison between Coppernose and Native Texas Bluegill Populations by John A. Prentice and J. Warren Schlechte in the 2000 Proceedings of the Annual Conference of the Southeastern Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies , Vol. 54 at pgs 196-206 looking at growth (size at age) , survival and catchability.

Coppernose Bluegill were significantly larger than Native Bluegill in all scenarios tested with the largest observed difference being 19.2 mm total length (.756 inch) and 33.5 grams ( 1.18 ounces) over 2 years. At 3 years there was a 16 mm (.63 inch) difference on average and at 4 years 24 mm (.945 inch). With other fish species present there was no difference in angling vulnerability between the types. Spawning activity of the brooders began at the same time (last week of Feb in 1995 and first week of March in 1997) and produced the same size offspring for tagging at the same time each year ( mid-April) in what appeared to be similar numbers. Survival of young of the year Coppernose was substantially greater than for Native Bluegill.

Before you draw to many conclusions note this was in Texas where the weather is close to that of the Coppernose’s native range. That is a critical key to success with Coppernose. While there is an often cited study titled Cold Tolerance in Two Subspecies of Bluegill by , A. J. Sonski , K. E. Kulzer , and J. A. Prentice, in the 1988 Proceedings of the Annual Conference of the Southeastern Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies , Vol. 42 at pgs 120-127 , that states Coppernose and Native Bluegill have similar cold tolerances the key is the test was done on bluegill all from the same area (Texas). Its purpose was to determine if Coppernose could survive the Texas climate. There is substantial observed and anecdotal evidence that Coppernose do not do well in cold climates (roughly north of the north line of Arkansas/Tennessee extended) . In the far northern US Coppernose become subject to high winterkill rates. This would be consistent with their similar relationship to Florida Largemouth Bass which have repeatedly been tested to do poorly and die in cold climates. The study first cited above was also in ponds with no supplemental feeding. Reported scientific evidence is substantial that in ponds the most common cause of reduced growth is a shortage of food. It is not known how much, if any, of the early growth difference between the two sub-species was due to limited forage. The two sub species will integrate (inter-breed) with the offspring exhibiting mixed traits and no apparent negatives but there is very little published data on them.

So the answer to the question should I stock Coppernose Bluegill or Regular (native) Bluegill or both is – it depends. Your location (climate) and your goals are key factors. If you are in the Deep South or the Southwest (including Southern California) and not at high elevation (Appalachian, Rocky or Sierra Mountains) Coppernose should be considered. In short is your temperature profile similar to those areas? To some extent management practices and the existing bluegill population, if any, are also possible factors. Whichever type you choose keep in mind that the most important factor to growing nice bluegill is to be sure they have enough food to eat and not to much competition.

See this link from the archives done by Bruce and the other mods.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92482#Post92482

Understood!!!

Thank you,

HV

It’s all about genetics - I don’t know why anyone would mix CNBG and native BG in a new pond in Southern waters.
This morning I caught several close relatives of the above CNBG that ranged between 1 - 1.25 lbs @ 9-10+ inches - almost as broad as they were long.
52.5 degree near surface water temp this morning and no fish feeding but hit sinking pellet flies. Supposed to hit 80+F this afternoon so maybe will come to feed this afternoon - if not I’ll turn off the feeder.
Pure Florida CNBG genetics are very important!

From my fishing in southern waters, if I lived where CNBG would survive, I wouldn't stock Northern BG in my pond. I'd go with a 80/20 mix CNBG/RES.

Update..

I held off this weekend from getting any fish. I bought some pond fertilizer 40lb sack. Since I have a new pond over half full and filling got around 8ft to the spillway. Wondering if I can go ahead and add the fertilizer?

Thanks,

HV