Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Growing big largemouth, and other fish.

I think you get the best results with LMB that fit your local conditions. North of about I-40 Northerns, between there and the Gulf coast either one and F-1 will do well, in Florida south of I-10 go with Flas. The more your conditions are like SoCal or Florida the better Flas will do. The info I have seen is only for a few years (3 I think) and shows F-1 size results in between the 2 but closer to Fla. sizes but with a more aggressive nature. I will check on that and report back.

To my knowledge there is no RT equivalent for the south. Gizzard shad are IMO a mistake in ponds unless you have a big pond and very specific facts and really know and understand how they effect population dynamics and balance.

For some reason I always thought southern fish grew faster, but northern ones lived longer. Faster growth AND longer life is like having cake and eating it too. No fair!

Ranger that is what I noticed when I first read the report some time back. It is a good comparison for the fish in that location. But when that was tried in your area and a little north (southern Ill. up to Wisc.) somewhere between 100% and 30% of the Fla. died before 1yr. due to the cold. The ones that lived were smaller and in worse condition than the nort. LMB.

Here's some information as to why Massachusetts may have produced a 15 lb. 8 oz. bass back in 1975. Here is my post on a the Massachusetts section of a fishing site and the response I got:

The Massachusetts state record largemouth that was caught by Walter Balonis in 1975 out of Sampson pond near Carver -- can anyone tell me if this pond is planted with trout? Considering part of the reason the largemouths get so big in some of the California reservoirs is they feed on planted rainbows, I'm wondering if this may have been a factor in the size of this fish.

Can anyone tell me anything about this pond? I'm not interested in fishing it just want to get a feel for why it may have produced such a large fish as I frequent another board of pond owners and biologists etc. How large is the pond and what kind of species does it contain? Is it private? Has it produced other big largemouths?

RESPONSE

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Sampsons Pond is 310 acres with a max depth of 14' it is not stocked with trout. It does have a public boat ramp and has a few tournys every year.
This is NOT where the MASS State record was caught The record was caught through the ice at the Agawam River(Mill Pond) in Warham. It is a major Herring spawning pond with a fish ladder conected to the ocean.
A side note the next couple years after the report of that 15.5lbs bass from Sampsons Pond there was a 13lbs and a 10+ lbs offically weighed from there.

Wow! Great post, Cecil. Isn't that interesting? It's always something like that. Exceptional fish coming from a situation that provides for optimal foraging theory. Massive calories in, few calories out. Every single situation where you see a giant fish you can tie it to this phenomenon.

The Nebraska state record striped bass was caught near a power plant discharge. This fish was an unheard of 64 pounds, 15 ounces!! Apparently there was a time each fall at Sutherland Reservoir that the warm water discharge would attract tens of thousands of ailing, cool weather stressed gizzard shad. The striper was also, IIRC, a member of a 100 fish stocking, as compared to other stockings in nearby Lake McConaughy that were huge by comparison.

Neat deal.

And Herring are an oily fish too boot just like rainbows. One theory on why northerns get bigger in Europe is they have oiler fish to feed on.

Be right back I need to overfeed my browns one more time...

CB1 :

Very interesting. If the reply to your question was correct then you may be on to something. I am going to speculate a little below but it is worth checking on. Greg asked me to look into Blueback herring and I posted some of the results. I will find the link and add to the end of this post. In doing the research I found info on BBH and on alewives another form of herring. One of the things I noticed on the nutrition level of the articles was the high content of lipids in herring when compared to say BG or shad. I think but am not sure that RT are like herring in this respect. If so it may be that high lipid content from sea run type fish is higher and contains something extra that makes LMB grow.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000411;p=1#000000

This is one of the studies I found --look where it is from and what it is about !!!

Assessing the Contribution of Anadromous Herring to Largemouth Bass Growth
Lisa A. Yako and Martha E. Mather

Massachusetts Cooperative Fish and Wildlife Research Unit, USGS-BRD, Department of Forestry and Wildlife Management, University of Massachusetts, Amherst, Massachusetts 01003, USA

Francis Juanes

Department of Forestry and Wildlife Management, University of Massachusetts, Amherst, Massachusetts 01003, USA

Abstract.—Juvenile anadromous river herring (alewife Alosa pseudoharengus and blueback herring A. aestivalis) spend the first 3 to 7 months of life in headwater lakes of coastal systems. Systems that support herring often produce trophy largemouth bass Micropterus salmoides. Even though biologists, managers, and anglers have speculated about the value of anadromous herring as a key prey for resident predators, the contribution that herring make to the diets of these predators has not been assessed. Herein, we quantified largemouth bass diets in two coastal lakes, Santuit and Coonamessett ponds, that contained anadromous herring, and we used bioenergetics modeling to evaluate the importance of herring prey to largemouth bass growth. During May through November 1994, largemouth bass diets consisted of various fish species, crayfish, and other invertebrates. Although not the most important prey overall, herring were the most important fish prey consumed in both lakes based on number of individuals consumed. In both lakes, herring were primarily eaten by largemouth bass that were fewer than 300 mm in total length after mid-August. Coonamessett Pond largemouth bass ate more herring and other fish prey and achieved better growth than did those in Santuit Pond. Bioenergetics modeling simulations revealed that water temperature does not explain the presence of trophy largemouth bass in southeastern Massachusetts. Because largemouth bass grow better on a diet that includes herring, we conclude that juvenile herring are an energetically valuable and a potentially key prey for largemouth bass. However, factors other than energetics mediate the use of herring by these resident predators. Further investigations into spatial dynamics, size structure, and foraging behavior are necessary to understand the mechanisms that drive interactions between largemouth bass and anadromous herring.

Received: August 19, 1998; Accepted: March 1, 1999

East West:

I am in California and fish the lakes here were we catch these giants. In Southern California the surface water temperatures range from a low of 54 to a high of 83 degrees on the average. Current water temperatures here are 65 degrees and slowly warming. Temps. should be at 70 degrees by the end of the month and then reach mid 70's to low 80's by August. Trout are stocked starting in late October through April in most lakes. I do not of a single public lake that is not stocked with trout here. Hatcheries start stocking trout when the surface temps get below 65 degrees and stock up to 65 degrees. Our bass essentially get 5 to 6 months of trout feed. Most lakes stock every other week and the size of the trout stocked depends if they are being provided by the CA DFG into public lakes and ponds or going into pay / private lakes and ponds. Typically DFG trout range in size from 6" to 12", with most common being the 10" - 12" sizes. Private operations generally buy the 12" / 3/4 to 1 lb. trout plus stock some of the hybrid monsters up to high 20 lb. trout. Current cost of trout is running $ 4.50 per pound delivered. Generally minimum order is 500 lbs. per trip with 2,000 lbs. required to established an order. The cost of trout has sky rocket in the last few years due to fuel and feed costs and demand. Most hatcheries will not sell trout under 3/4 to 1 lb. fish as it is not cost effective for them to sell smaller fish. Many lakes, even those as small as 40 acres stock 25,000 to 150,000 lbs. of trout during the trout season. Late in the year these same lakes then stock 10,000 - 100,000 lbs. of 1 - 3 lb. and larger channel cats. The fish here take a few weeks to start adapting their feeding to trout. However, within a month of the regular stockings, the larger bass are keyed in on feeding almost exclusively on these steaks with fins. So much so that I would say that the vast majority and all seeking 5 lb. largemouth and larger throw only 7" - 10" trout imitating lures. If you are not throwing swimbaits in tournaments here and the fish are eating the swimbaits, you will have your clocked cleaned by the competition.

Our lakes here have massive schools of threadfin shad, plus decent bluegill / redear populations (others high depending on vegetation), crawdads, black crappie in many lakes (however, not very abundant), channel cats, carp, and some silver side minnows, golden shiner, tilapia and hitch as well. There is a tremendous difference in the frequency of catching a bass over 10 lbs. here for the lakes that have trout stocked and those that don't. Do trout produce these fish over ten pounds on a consistent basis here - absolutely!

Dave

Water depths of the big bass -

Besides during the spawn....giant bass in California are most frequently caught in 15' - 30' of water here in California year round. The Floridas tend to feed for short periods of the day and move up from deep water or suspended over very deep water and move up to key structure spots where they can use the structure as a barrier to trap and then catch trout or shad. The addition of striped bass in many larger impoundments has seemed to make the larger bass more pelagic and they tend to suspend more over deep water more so in the days when stripers were not as abundant.

Dave

CA DFG must have a heck of a budget to be buying all those trout.

DaveB :

Thanks for the great info. That substantiates what I had read from the studies from Calif. and reported on earlier in this thread. It seems the combination of high lipid fish like herring , RT and TShad and year round growth seasons where water temps stay between 50 and 80 make for the growth of large Fla. strain LMB. If you can catch one take a pic and post it here.