Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Soil questions compaction in wet conditions

This probably answered somewhere else.

We are re-working the catfish pond. The basin was never compacted so it never held water well. Only parts of the basin ever had water as it never held enough to fill more than a quarter of the pond. We have drained the remaining water but the basin is still wet and mucky. I want to strip the top 6" off and then compact the soil, add DB200, roll, add 8" of good clay and roll again. As we rolled the mini-excavator into the pond it sank about 2 feet into the muck. We were able to drive it out but are concern that it might get stuck. I am planning on taking 1 month off (June) to allow for some drying time before renting more equipment to strip basin.

QUESTION:
Basin is 2-3 feet deep before hitting rock

There is no standing water in the pond at this time unless it rains.

1. Will one month be enough time to allow some of the moisture to leave?
and firm up the muck so equipment can work in the basin?

or do I need to wait longer?

2. After 1 month will a wheeled skidloader be able to handle the muck

or will I risk getting stuck?

3. How firm or dry (not mucky)does the soil need to be in order for a smooth shell or sheepfoot roller to work and not get stuck? If a mini-excavator sank what will a heavy 23,000 lb roller do?

Or as the roller begins will it firm up the soil immediately to allow movement?

4. Since the soil is mucky, would a sheepsfoot or flat shell vibrating roller be better?

Which one could handle the muck better?


Hopefully these questions make sense to you all.

thanks

Kurt,

Sounds like quite a project. Hopefully one of the dirt moving experts will chime in with opinions.

We've got some drainable ponds that we drain down in the fall and then seine the fish out of. It doesn't take long for the surface to appear dry, but the problem with silt is that it doesn't have the porousity that normal soils do. Thus it gets a hard crust on top, and there are no pores in the soil structure to allow air (and hence water vapor) movement through and out.

I'm just guessing, but I bet it will take a lot longer than one month to get enough drying and strength in that material to support much of anything. Plus, since you are in IL, you know how wet and humid it can be there in the summer.

I'd think your best bet might be to use either a dragline or a long reach excavator to pull out as much of the slop as you can, and then work in clay from the edge in, pushing it out with a dozer and compressing it to some degree. Then use the dozer to pull the sheepsfoot packer over top.

The bad news is that this is big equipment, which equals big costs.

Bill

Your looking at 3 months at best! Just remember if you do get it stuck and try pulliing equipment out going up a bank you are asking for a chain snapping right through the back of your truck and into your head. Break a chain on flat surface it fly under the truck , from a bank its at you.

Oh PS I have done it

not too optimistic. The areas that are mucky are relatively small since most of the pond never received water. One area is roughly 150 by 20 and the other area is 50 by 30 ft.

I have limited access to heavy equipment so......

I know this sounds laughable but could we not dig the muck out by hand?
If we dug down one foot removing the first layer of one foot and spreading it out on the dry part of the pond, this would leave one foot of muck.

1. one foot exposed should have some drying to it (not much I understand)

2. Since that only leaves 1 foot left, most equipment I would hope could manage in 1 foot of muck.

3. The foot removed and spread out would dry quicker and be easier to move later.


The basin is 2 ft deep before rock (pond in total is less than acre)

Time I have, not so much money and heavy equipment.

Laughable you would probly drown in muck no joke that stuff could kill ya.

Kurt,

I admire your can-do attitude, but that muck is about as heavy as wet concrete. I dug out a 10 x 12 ft area by hand about 4 ft down for a boat slip. I filled 5 gal buckets 1/2 full and carried them about 20 ft up the bank. I was about 35 yrs old and in very good shape when I did this. After about 5 hrs my biceps were cramping up so bad that I had to keep my arms straight. I could hardly get out of bed the next am because of my sore hamstrings.

"Conan the Barbarian" was just on TV and when you mentioned digging your areas out by hand, I thought of the scene where Conan get bound to the grinding mill and spends his youth pushing that around, eventually just by himself. I you dig you holes out by hand you might end up with a body like Arnold, albeit hormone free....

Seriously I would suggest getting a part time job and saving some money to get a long reach excavator or drag line in there. With the size you mention, I'd think they could be done in a day. At $100 or even $150/hr, that would be a much better approach. That would depend on having a place where they could place the material until it dries. You may need to move it twice, but that would sure be much easier.

Bill

We dug out one of our ponds that was filled with slit and muck. Piled it around the pond in huge piles and waited for it to dry out completely. Even with weeds growing in it, it took over two years to completely dry out.

Something with 4x4 and farm tractor tread might make it through.
If so leaving ruts through it every couple days in different directions would dry it out much faster. First take something about an inch diameter out there and poke down through the mud to something solid to double check the depth of the mud.
Got any friends that do mud runs?

Good news. Since water had not been on the pond for long (pond leaked, I guess that is not good news, I'll take what I can get at this point) the muck is only 6 inches to a foot. After that the ground is solid and for the most part has dried out. We were able to drive the equipment over the mcu with virtually no sinking.

This is primarily an excavated pond in which we dug out the rock and laid down a clay liner of 2 feet.

Starting in july we will remove 6 inches of the clay, compact (not compacted by excavator)add DB200 compact, add 8 inches of clay and next layer of DB200 and compact.

With the riprap removed and the new clay dug out roughly 500 cubic yards of new clay, I am thinking we have a plan.

stayed tune for "the next adventures of moron and his pond" only on this channel.

The 6 inches of clay removed, that is coming from the pond bottom? Do you plan on re-using it along with additional clay from another source to make up the additional 8 you intend on laying down? Just curious as I'm in a similiar situation. Bottom was never compacted and pond won't hold water.

Yes. I am stripping off 6 inches and then compacting with a layer of DB200. After stripping off 6 inches there is at least of foot of clay remaining. Then using the 6 inches plus additional 2 inches of new clay with another layer of DB200 laying down 8 inches and compacting.

The catfish pond is not real deep, only 8 feet max.

Sounds like a plan, unfortunately I will be doing the same this summer, once the remainder of the water is gone. Good luck and pics would be great showing your progress, if possible.

I have most of the pics under the main thread "starting the dream" under pond construction.

The long cresent shaped pond is the catfish pond and the one we are working on now. Once the skidloader arrives in july, I'll post some newer pictures.

Hopefully if all goes well, we will tackle the main pond in aug and finsh up the 3 grow out ponds and swimming hole next summer.

That only leaves the man-made creek and the marsh to finish. My wife is going to kill me if she reads this.

no you cannot get proper compaction in wet conditions. proper compaction is achieved by having the correct moisture content in the dirt and then compacting in lifts with the right machine...

as far as using a skidster to get the muck out... you said you have 2 feet to get out in the basin and then its rock??? id take and ramp that skidster in there, ie - cut dirt away as you go in to build a nice shallow ramp....get down to the rock so your driving on the rock but scooping out the muck. you should be able todrive down in, get a scoop of muck and then back out with it....it is the same way we dig pools. the only questionable part is if you can get down below the muck and onto the rock without getting stuck.

I lost access to the larger roller and with work starting in 3 days I am in a bind. I posted this on the main thread "starting the dream" but it might be more seen here.

I found a small roller 1 and 3/4 ton 36 inch vibratory drum smooth shell.

Will this work under these conditions.

Stripping 6 inches off basin leaving 1 foot in place

rolling basin
adding DB200 and rolling
adding 8 inches of new clay and DB200 and rolling


Pond is 10 foot max average 5 feet

Will the smaller roller provide enough compaction. I can not find or rent anything bigger but do not want to waste time if there is no hope.

please chime in with advice.