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#236587 10/03/10 04:35 PM
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I discover a new resident in the pond today, I think its a Whatzit? OK, I know thats not the name, can someone tell me what it is?




Also, 2nd set of pics, are these GSF. if so why are they blue? I'm having hard time with fish id, the larger GSF have a spot on the dorsal fin and they are green, right? HBG don't have the spot on dorsal fin and look like the last pic?


What is the easiest way to tell the difference between GSF and HBG or BG when they are 1/2" to 1" since I can't really see the spot?

Last edited by hd82; 10/03/10 04:36 PM.

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hd82 #236588 10/03/10 04:46 PM
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Your "whatzit" appears to be a backcross between two HBG. After the initial GSFxBG cross, subsequent generations as in when two HBG cross, often have to say it very unscientifically screwed up babies! What you are seeing is a very screwed up baby...

As far as your last two photos, the top one appears to be a pure GSF. Just because the fish's name has green in it, doesn't mean it is only going to be green or it will have any green in it at all. I see lots of gray squirrels around me who are mostly brown. Color variation in nature is common. The last photo appears to be a first generation HBG.

Your pond is fairly small, with that mean limited areas for your sunfish to spawn. This means you're going to get lots of crossing, back crossing and with it all kinds of genetic surprises...

CJBS2003 #236595 10/03/10 05:37 PM
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The last two photos are of the same fish, just different angle? Is it GSF or HBG?

I just stocked the pond in Aug with 25 CC 6" - 8" and 30 HBG 2" -3". The GSF are a gift from Mother Nature. I have some GSF in the 5"-6" range, also many, many maybe 1000's of fish in the 1/2" to 2" range. I have been using a trap and catching 100 - 200 a weekend. I am trying to weed out as many GSF as possible. I also stocked 5 LMB in the 3" - 4" range but have seen at least 2 in the 6" - 7".

The pond was drained and made bigger in 2008 but not stocked until this past Aug. I guess Mother Nature has given me a variety, back cross HBG, LMB and YOY HBG?

I wonder what else will turn up?

Last edited by hd82; 10/03/10 05:40 PM.

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hd82 #236600 10/03/10 06:28 PM
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Technically, it is still a HBG. Deformities are common with inbreeding hybrids. Not too many fish have offspring that are an improvement of the original parents beyond the original crossing.

Florida X Northern LMB are one of the few that offspring do well, but the strain differences are more climate related than biological IMO.



Rainman #236652 10/04/10 08:31 AM
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That one pic looks like the one that ewest posted of the GG.


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
esshup #236656 10/04/10 09:00 AM
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Pics to fuzzy. The last one looks like a GG which is a type of HBG (but not ,as best we know, a simple GSF X BG mix). HBG , BG and GSF can have a dorsal spot. See this thread.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=1341&Number=14459#Post14459

What's new (since the last report) can you tell us about the HBG ?



Last edited by ewest; 10/05/10 08:55 AM.















ewest #236670 10/04/10 10:14 AM
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I guess I'll pull out The GSF the grandkids are catching as they are Green and have the spots on top and bottom. As for what I catch in the trap some GSF and mostly the 1/2" - 3/4" what I think are HBG, the GSF I take out and the others I put back.

For the life of me I go from no fish to a variety of fish, I stock 25 CC, 30 HBG (3-4") and 5 LMB 4" in Aug. Now here it is the beginning of Oct and I have at least 2 LMB 6-7", HBG or GG 1/2 to 3/4 inches, back cross HBG 2" and who knows what else.

The one positive note to all this is that since I spent 3 weekends and a couple of weekdays to clear the pond I can now enjoy seeing whats in there! This is the best part of all knowing that I have accomplished phase one, visibility! The grandkids love watching the fish. The next step to accomplish is getting them to eat pellets. My brother throws food twice a day but still no takers. I guess the minnows are in such large numbers I'll have to wait until they get thinned out.

Here is a pic of GSF caught in July before stocking pond, they are green with spots unlike any GSF I have seen here




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hd82 #236687 10/04/10 11:01 AM
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Those look like typical GSF that I have seen...

CJBS2003 #236708 10/04/10 01:04 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, I am thinking I read here on the forum something about the number of spines in the dorsal fin being different on GSF than HBG, 9 vs. 11?

I think that would be the definitive solution to my IDing the two. I might be color blind but I can count


Sometimes ponds are like women, a small one takes less to manage and more time for pleasure
CJBS2003 #236800 10/05/10 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted By: CJBS2003


Your pond is fairly small, with that mean limited areas for your sunfish to spawn. This means you're going to get lots of crossing, back crossing and with it all kinds of genetic surprises...


And you get more interspecies interbreeding with turbid water as the fish can't see who they're having sex with! grin


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Cecil Baird1 #236819 10/05/10 09:13 AM
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GSF – WiscFish

Tail, dorsal and other fins: Slightly Forked or round tail. Dorsal fin with 2 lobes, broadly joined by a membrane and appearing as one fin, the first with 9-11 spines and the second with 10-12 rays. Pelvic fins thoracic. Adipose fin absent. Anal fin with 3 spines and 9-10 rays.

BG – WiscFish

Tail, dorsal and other fins: Slightly forked or round tail. Dorsal fin with 2 lobes, broadly joined by a membrane and appearing as one fin, the first with about 10 spines and the second with 10-12 rays. Pelvic fins thoracic. Adipose fin absent. Anal fin with 3 spines and 10-12 rays.

HBG will be somewhere in between. With the overlap in dorsal spine #s (9-11 and 10) I am not sure spine counts will work. I have not seen the info on HBG having a set # of dorsal spines.
















ewest #236881 10/06/10 02:50 AM
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Thanks Eric, it was a shot. As for color, I have noticed that when I catch a known GSF it is very easy to see it is light green. I then put them in a bucket of pond water with a areator until later. When I get around to sorting them out what I knew was green is now more blue! That being said color depends on a lot of variables and really can't be used as a determining factor in Iding when it comes to Sunfish.

Perhaps I'll have to print pics of fish with other differing characterists and take them with me to the pond as a cheat sheet until I can train my eye.


Sometimes ponds are like women, a small one takes less to manage and more time for pleasure
Cecil Baird1 #236882 10/06/10 02:55 AM
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Cecil what a distrubing thought! I guess what goes on the bedroom stays in the bedroom or spawning grounds in this case. As long as I don;t end up with torpedo shaped CC with a black stripe, a LMB mouth with whiskers and spines everything else will be just morths.


Sometimes ponds are like women, a small one takes less to manage and more time for pleasure
hd82 #236887 10/06/10 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted By: hd82
Cecil what a distrubing thought! I guess what goes on the bedroom stays in the bedroom or spawning grounds in this case. As long as I don;t end up with torpedo shaped CC with a black stripe, a LMB mouth with whiskers and spines everything else will be just morths.


No worries; different spawning methods and DNA are too different. grin Believe it or not, my response was serious although it sounded tongue in cheek. Among sunfish species that have similar spawning habits e.g. bluegill, redear, green sunfish, hybrids, etc., there is more of a likelyhood interbreeding if the water is turbid (can't tell each other apart) or spawning sites are limited.

To show you how much visibility matters, researchers have caused bluegills to interbreed with redears by cutting off the colored portion of the eartab on the redears.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 10/06/10 06:55 AM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Cecil Baird1 #236917 10/06/10 09:10 AM
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Visual , acoustic (sound - grunts and clicks) and chemical (smell) all play a part in lepomis (BG, GSF, RES, PS etc) recognition. Lack of spawning areas is a big factor in small ponds as is extreme turbidity.

Lots of good posts here on color and how it changes and works. Keep in mind how light penetration and diffusion through water effects color.

















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