Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Size Difference in LM Bass Fingerling

Last weekend I spent a great deal of time surveying my newly acquired 16 ac. lake and fish biomass. Early this spring I introduced a few mature LM Bass to the lake for predator introduction to reduce the large yellow perch population while primarily stocking native bluegill to establish a good forage base fish for later. I noticed many 3-5" LM Bass fingerling but a few 5-8" very round and full bodied LM Bass fingerling. My question is could these larger fingerling bass be from some this spring spawn or are these larger fingerling from a few mature bass that could have been introduced a few year(s) earlier? I generally observed the lake in the spring before my initial stocking and fished it but only caught perch and rock bass and didn't see any LM Bass population at all? What are your thoughts about these few much larger bass fingerling from you knowledgeable pondmeisters in the north. Thanks in advance.

Rowly

Hey Rowly, sounds to me like fish from previousy established populations. Most spring spawn bass I have seen this year (SMB at least) are only now in the 2" range... 5+" seems extremely large to me for fish that would be less then 6 months old... even IF the introduced adult bass did spawn at all this year for you. Had you noticed any fingerlings/fry before this? Bare in mind it normally takes 4+ years for a bass around here, (Ontario), to reach 12" long.

Good to hear from ya Pottsy. I spent much time on the water and I didn't see any fingerling in the 2" plus range. However I did notice fry later this spring and watched them grow from 1" larger. At approx 1 1/2" to 2" the fingerling became very distinguished. The bluegill bodies elongated and the LM bass developed that lateral black line from head to tail. Today, these fingerling are in the 3-5" range for bass and 3" range for the bluegill. However, there are a few larger bass fingerling that are distinctively heavy and much thickered bodied. Given the grow rate of the average fingerling of this spring I still think a few of these bass could eat there way to this size in this shallow warm body of water with weed cover and a abundance of different size fry from multiple hatching of bluegill and insects. Any other thoughts on this matter. Thanks

Rowly

That sounds like really, really good growth... certainly with enough food anything may be possible. Given the time it should take to grow just to 12", 5-8" in only one summer seems pretty surprising. If they are indeed the product of this years spawn.. then you have found yourself some darn good breeding stock my friend. : )
So where did you end up getting the bluegill? Are they pure or hybrids that you found? (This end of town we only seem to have trout available)
Getting more time out on the pond these days eh? Are they getting close to finishing gravel operations?

Pottsy, the pit guys have removed another acre or so this year but assured me they will be fully completed by the end of 2004 and some 4 more acres of water? The bluegill are native no hybrids but have some inbreeding between the pumpkinseed sunfish I believe in some cases but most appear true native bluegill from waterways around here. They truly are multipling like crazy with great survival rates due to their weed cover (ready for that 100+ mature LMB stocking in early October). I have been trying to get some 500 5-7" walleye for the lake but it seems the weather this spring has not been good for walleye fingerling? Have you heard anything like that up your way close to the resource? Getting back to the LMB question... I have watched these fry turn to fingerling and grow to the avg size of 3-5". I must live near a nucleur plant or something. HA!HA! But when I took the 10 or so LMB this spring, I caught a few very large LMB from another gravel pit too big for me to transport to my lake (22"+) so maybe I have a good gene pool. This is why I'm going to stock the mature LMB from a variety of places. If I can build a good gene base with pro-active pond/fish management them I should be rewarded well later. Hopefully I will catch a few SMB to see if their fry grow slower that the present LMB in the same biomass and lake environment? What's your thoughts...other pond owners with bass.

Rowly

I am wondering if perhaps the LMB have a faster growth rate then SMB since they can take larger or at least fractionally larger food from a smaller size/younger age?

Same here for Walleye, I didn't get any this year either and was told the same thing, that the weather was to blame. Sounds odd to me especially for the supplier here that specializes in walleye. I also ended up playing a week of phone tag with 'Leonard's Walleye' in regards to getting some LMB to stock and finally just gave up when I could never get a time that he was going to be around to get them.

I'd say with enough forage such growth rates are indeed possible. I stocked LMB fingerlings that, being generous, were maybe 2" in June. I spotted several this past weekend that were easily 7" or more.

Wow, 5 inches in 2 1/2 months, that is excellent. Sounds like you two are doing well with the LMB.

Pottsy/SirMatt, Bill C has told me before that these fingerling fish can grow 1/32" per day or 1/4" per week under ideal summer conditions. It seems again he was right on. Pottsy maybe LMB and LMB fingerling do indeed grow at different rates under the same conditions? Any comments from pondowners who raise both LMB and SMB fingerling at the same time under the same conditions in the north. Thanks for your input and experiences...., what do you think Cecil?

Rowly

I have no doubt that bass can grow rapidly under ideal conditions. If you've ever planted fish in a new pond with an almost unlimited food supply you will know they can grow explosively.

As far a smallmouth vs. largemouth, I have seen rapid growth with smallmouth in my pond too, although not with the lastest group I bought from a different source.

I purchase 50 to 100 five to seven inch feed trained largemouths every year and put them in a large floating cage initially to keep them from being eaten by the larger bass in the pond. I've had 5 to 6 inchers go to 10 to 12 inches from May to August although that was the maximum with many a little smaller.

Cecil, thanks for your thoughts and good growing to all!!!!

Rowly

Northern Bass Growers. Your SMB will not grow as fast as the LMB because the final maximum size of the LMB is greater. You guys knew this; ..
Record or near record SMB in Canada is a 9 lb 13oz beauty whereas in the US, it is a fish almost 12 lb from Dale Hallow TN. The LMB Canadian record was a 14 lb 12oz fish whereas the US record LMB was 22 lb 2oz. The LMB tops out at several pounds to almost twice the poundage as the SMB so growth obviously has to be faster for LMB. Both have similar life spans. Growth of the SMB will always lag that of the LMB under similar yet optimum conditions.
PS The smaller maximum size of SMB does not make them any less desirable.
SMB have their place in pond management; however I do not like to mix them in the same pond with LMB. Each has their own predation preferences and niche.

So true Bill but... That smallmouth world record of almost 12 pounds you speak of was disqualified a few years back and the next biggest smallmouth out of Dale Hollow took it's place. I know because I recently refurbished and repainted it. It was 10 lbs. 14 ounces. Seems the guide put a few fishing weights and a lower unit of an outboard to make it weigh more.

I believe the 22 lb. 4 0z Lmb should be disqualified. There never was a picture of it and it was taken home and eaten. That wouldn't satisfy record keepers today.

I can take you to an area of Lake Michigan where the average size smallmouth is bigger than the average size largemouth just about anywhere. Of course that does not mean they grow faster or get larger. I saw a pic of a smallmouth from this bay that had a 21 inch girth! I was supposed to find a replica blank for it, but could not find one with that big a girth. You should see the crayfish forage in that bay! Before spawning they blacken the water they are so thick, and the smallmouth are not far behind.

You may want to disagree, but I believe I am getting the same growth out of some of my smallmouths that I am out of my largemouths. They also seem to coexist O.K. with the largemouths although that may be because the largemouths are primarily feeding on pellets.

Cecil - Are we having a bad day?? Consider the Lk Mich. SMB are genetically more adapted to the cooler waters and are probably better at utilizing crayfish for forage. Does not suprise me that they average larger than the LMB in the same habitat. LMB is a little out of his realm in that area. Make sense? (Side Note: In LK MI where the crayfish are abundant , are zebra mussels also present?)
Reverse the tables and put SMB & LMB in a really warm (80-90 deg year round), mucky bottom, weedy pond and compare growth. And only bgill for forage.
I did't say you shouldn't or couldn't mix LMB & SMB. In fact I did the LMB/SMB mix thing in my old pond which is how I came to this 'new' philosophy. I said I don't like to do it. I feel it creates some sort of unfair competition which relates back to the stress thing between predators that I related to in the large bgill -Pelican Lk post.
By my definition - your LMB & SMB are coexisting OK, only if they are both reproducing and recruiting YOY into the community. That is the true test if a species is successful in nature. It has to reproduce so offspring repopulate after death of the parents. Don't forget your basic principles of population ecology.
I've got to get out to see your shop. I've got a SMB that needs refurbished.

Bill,

Sorry. Didn't want to give the impression I was having a bad day. However I wasn't implying that the largemouth would do as well in Lake Michigan. Just that in some enviroments they can put the average size of largemouths in their own favorable environment to shame. Not many waters where every largemouth that gets reeled in is 4 or more pounds. That happens with smallmouth in some areas of the Great Lakes. In this particular area they are even heavier than other areas of Lake Michigan. Real footballs.

Never any disagreement on anything you say. Just bringing up points of interest. I've had people misunderstand me and assume I am trying to "one-up" them. That is not the case. I just like to share info.

Come over any time. Just tell me when you are coming so I will be here. I think I may take the trout out next weekend or the weekend after and transfer the brookies to another pond. If you come out then it may be interesting.

Take Care and I always look forward to your responses.