Pond Boss Forums INTRO New Forum Member Introduction Green Sunfish problem

My two year ould never stocked pond seems to full of green sunfish from 1/2" to 4" in length. I would like to add blue catfish and louisiana native bass. I was tokd that the greenies will over-populate, stunt and even consume the new fish I want to stock! What should I do to control the sunfish?

hd82:

Welcome to the forum. I don't think that advice is 100% true. How big is the pond, and how deep is it? Are you talking about Louisiana Native Largemouth Black Bass? What are your goals for the pond? Do you want to catch large Bass? Large Catfish and not so large Bass? Or?

If it were my pond, I'd stock channel cats rather than Blue cats if I were to put cats in my pond. Blue cats can get large enough to eat your Louisiana Bass, even if they are 2#-3#. I've noticed that in my pond, once a cat is caught and released, I won't catch it again. I caught and tagged one last April and it hasn't been caught since.

I think that if you stock fish that are at least the size of the largest Green Sunfish, they won't get eaten, at least by the GSF.

relatively small as ponds go, about 5600 sq ft. I dug it to use the dirt, mostly clay, to level a build site for my log home. It is out of an 18 acre property my brother and I bought in 2007. At its deepest I estimate it to be 10'. I stocked with channel cat in '07 the 7 months later a tornado came thru, large hail not bark off 90% of my Pine tree and and Pine Beetles began dystroying the trees, I was told the hail and winds chrunned up the water, it turned black and all the fish died. Since then I drained the pond, removed all the fish and widened the pond, had a well dug and fill it. That was a year ago. The pond is mostly for relaxation as I only get up there on weekends so I would like to enjoy catching a few fish and for my grandkids to enjoy, also my brother lives in a trailer on the property and since he cannot work b/c of his disability he likes feeding the fish and sitting at the pond watching the deer and turkeys.

GSF a problem????

I could rant and rave at you but since you are still within the 24 hour new member grace period I shall refrain.



If you add some LMB that are large enough to eat the GSF they will probably control the GSF fairly quickly especially since you have Blue Cats in there already.

I'm interested in hearing some expert feedback regarding your pond. IMHO with LMB and Blue Cats you will eventually have a forage issue (as in not enough forage) unless you actively manage your predators. Any pond can only hold a given amount of predators (I believe 50 pounds per acre is the accepted norm). There are so many variables pond per pond though. What is the status of the vegetation in your pond? If you have a lot of vegetation in your pond it gives the forage base places to hide, if you have very little vegetation it can be an open hunting ground for your predators.

Wait for expert feedback though (which certainly is not me).

Oh and welcome to Pond Boss, we're glad you found us.

I had the whole area, about .69 acs hydro seeded last year and it has taken off quite well. This gives me good filtration of run off since it is a lot of clay. The edges of the pond hace small trees going in the water, Wild Onion and some other non- grass and wild grass growth not that my brother isn't "cleaning the edges" with the tractor and rake attachment!

My concern is the size of the Green Sunfish I don't see! If I am seeing young fish, 1/2 to 3/4 inches at the waters edge along with minnows and some GSF that look to be 5" to 6" are there larger ones I don't see? I wanted to buy fingerlings but don't know what size that is. I would rather not spend a lot on 8" to 10" cats if I can help it.

Well once again I'm certainly no expert but it is possible that you have GSF larger than 5 - 6 inches (I don't know what the growth rate is of GSF and since your pond is 2 years old oops I just noticed that you drained and renovated it one year ago perhaps the 5 to 6 inch GSF are as large as they get in twoone years, experts?).

GSF have much larger mouths than most sunfish and GSF can get good sized (we have had 10" GSF weighing close to 1 pound). It is amazing to see what a 10" GSF will strike, they will hit a 4" Rapala X-rap without hesitation.

A pond can only hold so many fish. Although buying larger predator fish (as opposed to fingerlings) would be more expensive you would not have to buy many of them for a pond that size. Buying larger predators would help to ensure that the predator fish did not get eaten plus the larger predator fish would begin controlling the GSF numbers immediately. (I can't believe I'm giving advice on controlling GSF, I think I must have a fever or something).

I think you need a full medical workup.

And mental. I'm feeling two feet shy of full pool this morning.

Channel cat large enough to not get eaten are dirt cheap. Blue cats will grow much more slowly than channels and are not as hardy. Get some 6-8 inch channels now andyou should be able to get same sized lmb this fall. Just go for it.

Also get some larger bluegill now.

Unless my math is wrong, you have about 1/8 acre pond. LMB will overspawn in one that size unless you are committed to working your butt off. It really isn't big enough for fish that go the size of blue cats. I would put in about 30 channel cats and start eating them when they reach about 1.5 to 2 pounds. They will help with the greens and ,when you toss out floating feed, the Grandkids get big eyed. Too many green sunfish is a recipe for grandkids enjoyment.

guys this GSF thing has had me pulling my hair out for about a week. i guess its true, too much info is dangerous! my head was chocked plumb full of useless info before, like who was the cast of Dallas and Knot's Landing, my girlfriend wanted to know this! now i have the crap that i read all week making me nuts as what to do about the GSF.

so i should get about 30 channel cats, which before i re-did the pond, is what i had anyway. back then i bought 8"-10" at about $1.75 each delivered.

burgermeister: Why the Bluegill if I already have a the GSF? Could it be future Hybrid Bluegill? Along with the useless info I have read I did read that BG/GSF Hybrid produce at a slower rate and hardier.

Tiny pond, only 1/8 acre.

(by the way, I don't know if you guys know this, but google does unit conversions, makes it really easy, just type in "5600 square feet in acres" without the quotes)

As other users have pointed out, this is a very small pond volume for reproducing fish, especially fish such as LMB.

Have you considered planting a non-reproducing fish, and using aeration and feeding to keep them at a high density for the pond? As others have identified, Channel Cats are dirt cheap, grow quickly, respond well to feeding, and do fine in small ponds. You could stock Hybrid Bluegill as a smaller sport fish, and Hybrid Striped Bass as a third fish if desired. Channel Cats will eat GSF, and you might consider adding a single feed-trained LMB to control the GSF and any potential reproduction by the HBG or CC.

I haven't considered much of anything as I have been focused on what to do about the GSF actaully. I'll ask again, without being disrespectful to the people who are trying to help, Why the Blugill? I think I read on one of the GSF forums here that the GSF gives a good fight, are good forage, grow to about 12", 3lbs or better and if properly maintained will not over populate and stunt growth of themselves and other pond fish.

hd82 don't over worry the GSF problem. If I understand what you have said so far about the pond, you only have GSF in the pond at this point, correct?

Unchecked most sunfish will over populate and stunt. You need a predator in the pond to eat the sunfish.

The questions for your are

(a) How much work are you willing to put into managing the pond?

(b) What types of predator fish do you want?

Every pond has a limit as to (1) how many total fish (usually expressed in terms of pounds per acre) the pond can support and (b) how many pounds of predator fish the pond can support.

IMHO, DD expressed his view about the LMB because without significant culling of the LMB they are likely to reproduce and over consume the GSF. Then you will have a pond that is bass heavy and forage light (all wolves and no sheep). So if you add LMB you will need to remove LMB to keep a predator/prey balance in the pond, which is why I asked question (a) above.

Burger just hates GSF which is why he suggested BG. (Just kidding, I'm not sure why Burger recommended BG - I'll let him provide you with an explanation for that).

If I understand what you are saying, then the CC are just something to play with or eat and not predators? The GSF are a sport fish, good fight and also tasty as a consumable food? The BG likewise as for sport and consumption but not predator for GSF? The LMB would be the only thing that stands guard and is a predator to keep the GSF in check? Since the size of my pond hogties me to how many fish and species of fish, it would hold true to say. "have fun with CC, BG, and GSF but never consume the "Predator"?

Many people like Hybrid Bluegill in small ponds because they do not reproduce well. HBG tend to be mostly male, and their offspring are usually very poor quality fish. This means that HBG reproduction can be controlled using laid-back predators such as Channel Catfish. Regular Bluegill reproduce quickly and produce fully viable offspring, so a very aggressive predator such as LMB is required to control them and prevent overpopulation.

GSF pose a few problems in ponds, mainly because they can overpopulate and stunt (although LMB control them very well) and their relatively large mouths allow them to compete with fish such as small LMB and HSB for food.

If you're fine with the GSF in the pond, I wouldn't worry about them. If you're concerned about overpopulation, add a single LMB around 10-12" to the pond. It will eat GSF, starting at the smaller sizes. My dad owned a small pond, about 1/10 acre and 5' deep. It was a seething mess of stunted GSF. We put a single 11" LMB in, and pulled him out about a year later significantly larger. GSF were still present in the pond, but at much lower density and larger sizes.

Are you willing to aerate the pond?. Aeration will allow more pounds of fish to grow and it will tend to keep the water quality better especially in a small pond. Aeration will also help reduce the chance of anothter fish kill. Aeration is not necessary for the pond to produce a few fish, but the pond, since it has steep sides and is small, it will stratify (form thermal layers) and have bad water quality on the bottom (6'-10'). A pond 1/8 acre and 10 ft deep must have very steep almost vertical sides. Over time the sides may slide in and make the pond shallower.

Back to the GSF concern. If their numbers are kept low (200-300/ac; 25-35/0.125ac) and with adequate natural foods they will grow to larger sizes of often 7"-9". More / ac can be grown to larger sizes with pellet feeding and/or aeration. BG were probably suggested because if added, and with good predation they will eventually out number the GSF and not cause as many problems. However I am not sure this is totally true for a pond as small as 0.125ac and in your particular situation.

Catfish not fed pellets are a predatory fish especially CC greater than 12"-14". CC this small will not eat a very large fish compared to a 12" LMB. Larger CC 15"-16" eat larger fish and tend to be more predatory than a 12" CC because the smaller CC are eating more (a larger %) invertebrates. You will grow more and larger CC faster in the pond if you feed them fish food pellets and aerate. CC (12"-14")not fed pellets will control the GSF numbers. I am not sure how many it would take to get the job done in your pond. It depends on sizes and numbers of GSF and how big the stocker CC were. CC at 10"-12" should only cost about $1.00-1.50 each - not a lot of money. Although you might have to drive and pick them up at a fish farm. If it were my small pond I would start removing GSF with fish traps since your brother is there daily. GSF enter fish traps readily if traps are baited with old bread or similar foods - maybe dry cat or dog food. Some homemade fish traps have been discussed here previously and maybe some reader will provide you a link to those old posts and pictures.

Trappig the GSF will get the population under control cheaper and quicker than relying on predators. A 12" dia X3ft baited trap with cone ends should catch 6-20 GSF per day - depending. If cheaper and quicker is not a concern then use the larger sized stocker predators LMB-CC). A combination of trapping and predators could rapidly get the GSF number down to numbers where they are growing well and harvestable. Expect one 10"-13" LMbass to eat 275-375 GSF /yr (2"-3.5") in longer growing season of LA. Once the GSF numbers are lower and their average size seems to be getting bigger then you can remove a few of the predators and eat them and a few of the GSF. How many to remove will depend on what predators you stock. Once the GSF population in under control with a few predators present you should not need BG. GSF with a little training will eat fish pellets and grow more rapidly.

Hybrid BG are a good option for a smaller pond but they should be periodically restocked which is an expense. BG and GSF will provide ample new recruits to the fishery at low monitary cost, although managing their numbers may require a little time and effort.

hd82, GSF are the most maligned and cherished fish on this forum with a lot of friendly banter back and forth among friends.

I personally choose to stay above the whole thing and not criticize the ignorant and unwashed GSF haters. Dang, there I went and did it again.

CC won't do much of a job of controlling GSF but since they only spawn once yearly, they seldom present a problem worth losing sleep about. The upside is that they seldom over run a small pond like BG do down South. The downside is that they don't often get as large as a BG, CNBG or HBG.

If I had my druthers on a small pond, I would have a CC and HBG pond with a feeder and aeration.

Are there any advantages to CC over HSB in a small pond such as this?

I believe they can survive lower O2 levels.

Scott hit the big point... CC can handle lower water quality. They also reach larger sizes if that is your interest. In a northern pond where water temps don't get as high, HSB are fine. But realize in southern ponds, once HSB start hitting the 6-8 pound size, they really need cooler temps and higher DO and will have high hook mortality for C&R. In a pond that size, consider stocking CC and HBG with only 1 LMB to help control any HBG offspring and keep the current GSF offspring in check.

Sorry, I missed the pond size. One lmb and CC sounds like a good option to start off with. Just about gonna have to feed some, though, to get desired results. What about 1 lmb and 2 or 3 large male BG?

Thanks to all, I think the plan will be
1) 30 CC 8" / 10"
2) 1 LMB 8" / 10" if available
3) 20 HBG 4" / 6" or do you think smaller or less fish
4) Aerate pond below 6'
5) Food pellets?

Anything I missed or should change? I can't say how many GSF are in pond, I have seen a school of 10 from 1/2" to 4" and caught 7 between 2" and 5" in a matter of 30 to 45 minutes with rod and reel,this being the case without any predation would indicate to me there are well over 100 at this time. But than what do I know, I'm a rookie, just a small fry in a small pond.

Thanks to all, I think the plan will be
1) 30 CC 8" / 10"
2) 1 LMB 8" / 10" if available
3) 20 HBG 4" / 6" or do you think smaller or less fish
4) Aerate pond below 6'
5) Food pellets?

Anything I missed or should change? I can't say how many GSF are in pond, I have seen a school of 10 from 1/2" to 4" and caught 7 between 2" and 5" in a matter of 30 to 45 minutes with rod and reel,this being the case without any predation would indicate to me there are well over 100 at this time. But than what do I know, I'm a rookie, just a small fry in a small pond.