Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Creating the food chain Time to think predators

I have several species reproducing in two ponds. Getting them shipped safely would be the challenge...

Great answer Travis. I second TJ's thoughts.

Here's a PSK supplier, complliments of Cecil. He has PSK, another pondmeister here just ordered some for September delivery.
Smith Creek Fish

Wow, that pricing is up to 400% higher than around here. If I could get $1 per 1-2" BG I'd solve a bunch of problems pretty quickly. That's 4x going rate at several local hatcheries here.

CJ - Thanks for the info on sunfish. I like the idea of having both PKS and RBS. I'm still looking to source the RBS though. I think I'll call to see what hatcheries are in NY.

I think the dace are local, although I don't really trust the owner I talked to though, he didn't really seem to care. Are there any noticeable differences?

I'll eventually add a few brown trout, you're right I can just take them out if I don't like them.

I went out to net a fish, but couldn't catch one. They're really fast. I've caught one before and it looked something like a blacknose dace. (I looked through a National Audubon Society field guide) It's native to my area and is often seen in creeks apparently. I didn't see anything else that was the right size, has the black side stripe and has the right shaped head. I've never seen any other fish in the swamp, but I plan on getting a trap. Right now however, the deepest part of the swamp may only be a foot deep. In the spring it gets about two feet deep.

There isn't much expense in deepening the creek five feet or so, and widening about thirty feet to around fifteen feet wide. I own a small backhoe which I could do the job with. As I mentioned, the creek is dry right now, which will make it easier. I'm not expecting a sustainable fishery, but the possibility of one or two making it to adulthood would be nice.

I added about twenty spawning beds (five on each side) using this site: http://www.helpourfisheries.com/how_to_build_a_nest.htm
Thanks for telling me about removing YP egg strands, if I do notice an overpopulation this will definitely help. I've seen crayfish around the edges almost since the pond was first filled so they've made there way in already.

PS fecundity is a topic of discussion here. I've seen resources claim PS are have low fecundity [just like the one Travis is quoting], however, Dr Dave Willis says PS regularly overpopulate and stunt for his SD SMB ponds - in fact, see the most recent PB issue to review his field research. It makes no sense to me, as RES females I've seen will produce up to 30,000 eggs, but never overpopulate. PS females lay supposedly far less, but are a also a threat to overpopulate? AP and I were trying to figure this out a couple months ago and neither of us made it out of the starting blocks.

Not trying to argue anything - I'm simply trying to figure out WHY PS overpopulate is their fecundity is low.

This source states PS females can lay as many as 7,000 eggs, but are also multiple spawners. Perhaps that's why they can overpopulate with lower fecundity while a RES, with higher fecundity, doesn't because the RES spawns only once annually.

Just trying to figure this out. Any ideas?

http://books.google.com/books?id=4s1FnZ9...ity&f=false

Not sure TJ... I would trust Dr. Willis' research but wonder what were the variables? Perhaps the pond had ample areas for the PS to hide? Also why I recommend giving the SMB a big jump start on the sunfish. Just to make sure there are plenty of bigger mouths to control the PS reproduction.

Guy's I think the phrase IT ALL DEPENDS fits it best, my layman's opinion is PS's being such a good survivor are able to withstand bad water conditions, low PH, and winter kill in northern ponds and when the predators are reduced or eliminated because of it they are free to expand.
The PS's haven't over populated in my pond and the GSH's far out number them, I believe the GSH take a heavy toll on the PS fry and the Trout take care of a large amount of the bigger PS.

I still believe if a small amount of adult PS are stocked a predatory minnow like GSH can really help control them along with your top predators.

I take no responsibility for the consequences of my opinion and observations.

Despite my urge to want to nail this down with scientific certainty - I think it's another win for "it all depends". Travis - the pond for Dave was a sandpit - steep sloped - no idea of % vegetation. Regardless, your recommendation to stock SMB first is great advice. So great, I wish I would have followed it in my main pond.

Wouldn't that (stocking SMB first) depend on what size SMB were available? (discounting the $$ aspect)

If you could stock larger SMB, then obviously you wouldn't have to wait as long. The main point I am making is you need to have a good number of SMB in the 12"-15" range before stocking the sunfish. So how ever long it takes your original SMB to reach 12"+. By then they should have had at least 1 and perhaps two seasons in which they would have spawned... More young SMB you quickly hammer a lot of the very small sunfish fry as well.

OK, I haven't responded in probably over a month. I've been spending most of my free time just watching my pond and fishing. Fatheads and GSH are doing great, I'm well on my way of my goal to walk from one end of the pond to the other. I've also added 300-400 NRBD with the help of a friend and local bait seller. He got them from a local river where they swarm in the shallows, and follow your lures in by the hundreds. I've also found out that the only fish I know of in the feeder stream are black nosed dace, which is a plus.

Water clarity is two-three feet, I used the thermometer in a bottle technique and found that that that the pond remained at 55-68 degrees even through the hot summer months, so I'm in anticipation of the possibility of year round trout.

As of right now I'm expecting to put in 50 SMB per acre next spring, and as little as 30-40 YP per acre. TJ suggested 50 perch for jumbo fishing, but I don't know if I want them competing much with my SMB. Later next fall an additional 30 RBT. No WE in the fall, I'm not sure if I'll ever add them. Can I add them whenever after the lake develops? What size would they have to be? I'm also holding off with PS and RBS stocking for a few years. I havn't found any people who sell RBS either, but there are a few who stock PS's. I'm even thinking about putting the SMB stocking off to next fall or the spring after, to let my baitfish grow another year, if I can wait...

I commend you on your patience! It will pay off in the end...

That is great you could find a source for the NRBD. Please let us know how they do in your pond. I will be curious to see if they can maintain numbers under predation, but only time will tell. The blacknosed dace won't be a problem. If they have a stream to descend into, they will be able to spawn without one, they can live in your pond but won't be able to spawn in it.

You can always add WE later in your pond's life. I'd want them to be at least 10" and 12"-14" would be better... Waiting a couple years to stock your sunfish after the SMB isn't a bad idea in your situation. Please keep us posted on your progress!

Thanks CJ, I hope I can make it another year. Who knows maybe I can get another forage species in there, I'm hearing a lot about the lake chubsucker being a super food for bass but nobody really mentioned them for SMB.

I just got through reading Bill Cody's great five part installment of SMB management on bass resource. It was extremely informative and much appreciated, thanks Bill. Anyway, I have a few more ideas, including adding at least a few half log structures to my SMB beds. Those percentages were huge! Nesting success up 137 to 287 percent, the number of nests being used up 183 to 443 percent and production of juveniles increased from 607 to 3844 percent, wow! Now that's a lot of bang for your buck. I was also thinking that I'll add YP the following fall with my test RBT after I introduce my similarly sized (probably 2-3")SMB in the spring, just to give the smallies a head start.

I've seen a few NRBD around and bought myself a cheap minnow trap, but in my small lake I don't think it's going to be very efficient, it has produced plenty of crayfish from nearby streams though.

Contact Overton Fisheries... He sells the lake chubsuckers(LSC)and I bought mine from him. They're a bit pricey, but you won't need many, perhaps just 50 or so. If you stock them now, the originals will outgrow your LMB and should reach maturity in about 3 years and if the habitat is right, should establish nicely...