Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Creating the food chain bass vs. bream help!

We are located in central louisiana and our pond has been stocked with bluegill, hybrid bream, catfish, and bass. This has been the third year of growth for the fish. the problem is that the bream seem to be taking over. Anywhere you go in the pond, which is about 3 1/2 acres and 20 feet at its deepest point, there is clouds of bream all sizes. After spawning we would see bass fry, but we can never catch any small bass, only bass 2.5 to 3 pounds can be caught. This seems to make us think the food cycle is out of wack. Originaly we only stocked the bream for bass forage. Is it posible that the bream are eating the fry. The pond has ample wood cover, do you think some sort of vegitation would help and can you plant say hydrilla? Your help to these questions would be greatly appreciated.

Partial answer, some info towards finding small LMB.

I'm now in my second (slight possibility third) year of having an LMB spawn. To date, this year and last, I have only seen small (3" - 6") LMB fingerlings as a result of 1) seining (which doesn't get many - I think little LMB are sneakier/faster than little bream) or 2) fishing with worms for BG. Using the latter method, I have found them from in the weeds at the shore (have caught two little LMB on bad casts that should have only snagged weeds) to about 4' deep (right on the bottom).

After the LMB fingerlings get to 7"-8", I start catching them the same ways/places I would larger, adult bass.

Thank you for your response. The question we have is that it seems that the bass fingerlings are not making it. It seems that the only bass surviving are the ones that we first stocked. We have a fairly stict fertilizing schedule and feed the bream and catfish everyday with automatic feeders. The bream numbers are exploding and we was wondering if the bream are the cause for the low reproduction of the bass or lack of vegitation. We have ample wood cover.

It is possible that high bream numbers can decimate LMB fry.

If you can provide the stocking records (numbers and sizes stocked for each species), that would likely help clarify any problem that might have resulted from the initial fish populations.

The condition of your bass and BG (weight vs. length) can provide additional info on whether either fish is running out of food. If the LMB are not sucessfully recruiting, I would expect bass condition to be very good and bream condition to be poor. So what you know of bass/bream/catfish lengths and weights (or, if weights unknown, whether they seem skinny or fat) will help diagnose the pond.

Last but probably most important - what are your goals for the pond? Do you want big bass, big bream, or a "balanced" fishery? Your goals will define whether the present state of your pond is a problem or a good thing.

P.S. It seems like we're having low traffic, probably due to the holiday weekend, so you may not get a lot of responses until next week.

LA. welcome to the PB forum. An interesting question.

To many BG can be a cause of no/little LMB recruitment as can other factors and usually in combination. Take a look at this link on pages 10-12 on Management (balance) in LMB/BG ponds. A seine survey will tell you much about small fish status. I suggest it as a method to gather more info (in addition to creel(catch) surveys and visual info). If what you think is true, an easy way to deal with it is to buy a few LMB in the size classes that are missing and add them. Population balance is an on going matter in LMB/BG ponds so it is good to learn how to determine it and how to use it to meet your goals. Do you know your original stocking rates from 3+ years ago and any since then?

http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p1428.pdf

Theo great minds think alike.

LaFishaholic

Being a northerner, I completely understand the panic that swarms of BG can cause. Just to build on what the others have said, It does sound like you are missing a year class of bass that should be around 0.5-1.25lbs. This size class are generally very aggressive fish that eat a lot of smaller bream. They are usually easy to catch on the rod and reel too.

If you stocked the bass in 2004 perhaps they did not spawn in 2005. Therefore, there may not be any intermediate bass to find. Like ewest said, it would be interesting to know exactly when and what you stocked. Size, species and dates.

Thanks for ya'lls responses. The initial stock was in 2001 and consist of 1000 bass, 7,000 bream, and 1000 catfish. That many bream was stocked for forage purposes. Our goal is to have a balanced fishery, but with some great bass fishing. The condition of the bass and catfish are very good. The bass are "footballs," but the bream are a little on the skinny side. I do think we are over populated with bream, all the signs point that direction. If we do stock the size bass we need, do you think we have enough cover for the future spawning and fingerlings? Like i said we have ample wood cover (mabye to much), would some type of vegitation and rocks help provide cover for the fingerlings and promote bass spawning?

WOW.... That was a lot of fish to stock into 3 1/2 acres. How many of the bream were hybrids? Have you harvested any of the bass?

The conditions you describe are almost textbook over crowded bream. If this diagnosis proves to be true, my favorite recommendation is to add more predators and let them clean up the bream for you. However, you stocked an awful lot of fish initially so I would be a bit concerned about going over the carrying capacity of the pond.

Thanks for your helpful reply. We understand it is a lot of fish for 3.5 acres, but we didn't know what the mortality rate for the fish would be. We just know that we have to find a solution to the problem and we don't know what the problem is. I feel there is habitat issues with the pond. With issues i mean that there is not enough habitat that the bass feels they can spawn in, and not enough habitat for the fingerlings can survive. I would really like to know about hydrilla, if you can plant it and control it enough. If there is such a thing. We have another pond that is maybe 3 feet deep with a lot of grass and the fishing is unbelievable. Any reply would be greatly appreciated.

Go through the charts (and text) contained in the link above and see what result you get. They will help you get a better feel for pond balance.

Do you feed or fertilize the pond? If no fert. what is the water visibility depth? What is the water flow through if any? All these relate to productivity of the pond and its ability to provide for the food chain of the fish. Without enough data we are guessing. How are the CC doing ?

Recruitment is how many fish are born and survive to a certain point (usually when they can reproduce). It is made up of both spawning and staying alive and being healthy enough to grow to spawning size. That leaves 2 parts to your question. Was there a spawn and/or if so did they live to reproductive status. LMB are affected by both wrt BG. BG will eat LMB eggs and fry and small ones as will most fish. That is one part of the question which can be fixed with a few LMB to reduce the BG #s and/or by taking out some BG or both. It also results in more LMB spawning new ones. The combination will often lead to balance if you have made a correct assessment of the problem. If not then it may lead to LMB overcrowding (the other end of the spectrum). If you have wood cover then adding some shallow brush type cover may help but ,I doubt lack of cover is the problem or a good answer. More cover may aid the small LMB but it will also result in more BG surviving predation and thus effect the condition of the existing LMB.

The other part of the question is are the LMB spawning. There are studies which show that in BG/sunfish crowded ponds LMB may not spawn. The studies attempted to find out why. The info did not result in a proven conclusion but the authors indicated that the LMB seemed to sense the futility of the situation and just did not spawn or waited in hopes of better conditions until they reabsorbed the eggs.

IMO there is no substitute for enough data in making the decision you are faced with. The right answer is to gather the data or get a pro to look at the pond and make an assessment.