Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Creating the food chain Another Minnow Question

My new pond (1/2 acre, Northern Ohio) was filled in April and we put fathead minnows in late May.

Now I'm seeing some fish that are about 3 inches long around the edges in the gravel. I haven't been able to catch one, but they appear to be mostly brown with two cream colored wide vertical stripes that start behind the gills.

The fish seem to burrow in the rocks, usually are in pairs and chase away minnows. I assume they are spawning. If they are spawning at that size, I guess I have nothing to worry about getting an over-population of unwanted fish since the predators I'll be stocking this fall should take care of them.

Anyone have a guess as to what these fish are?

Would it happen to look anything like this?

[img]http://tinypic.com/5tym9v[/img]

That's a logperch found it your part of the country.

percina caprodes...otherwise known by some as Johnny darter. Is that what you saw?

Thanks for the photo, but it doesn't look like the fish. The one I have is thicker, mostly brown, with only two cream colored bars.

Dang, you've gone beyond my shallow knowledge base...some else?

Rocky1:

I made a quick search and did not see an obvious answer. It would be easier for you to spot a match . Try the following site under minnows , suckers, or one of the other headings. I think you can come close. ewest

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/efish/index.html

Male fathead minnows in breeding condition will have the banding coloration like you describe. Maximum size for old, well fed fatheads is 3"-3.5". The behavior that you describe is probably territorial defense between two males. Fatheads often spawn under rocks.

I love to watch them during spawning. Is this what you have. I do. http://www.cnr.vt.edu/efish/families/images/jpegs/fathead.jpg

The fish you have are definately fathead males in spawning condition. Today I saw two males with the banding wrangling over a spawning territory. The picture that RennyK referenced was not a real good example of the typical color banding of fathead males. The banding is definately distinct vertical bands.

Thanks Bill. At least I don't have any foreign intruders.

Minnow question

In the pond I’m working with I have identified three different kinds of minnow. All three are from the Dance family. The pond is thick with minnows, due to an absence of predators until last week. Why do I only see fat head minnows being discussed? The Dance in my pond are much faster than fat heads, and would probably be much harder for bass and sunfish to completely wipe out. Granted this pond is spring feed and used to be part of a creek so water is cooler than most ponds.

Are there other small minnows that are good for stocking other then fat heads, and the much larger shiners?

John Boat, I could be wrong, but I believe the minnow family you are referring to is "DACE" as opposed to "DANCE."

Maybe someone else can confirm or reject that.

Sunil :

You are correct. See the web site referenced in my post above and look under minnows. ewest

I would have agree that what you are most likely describing is minnows from the Dace family, but as I looked into things I found a few sites describing a Dance minnow family. Now is it just a misunderstanding or a typo on their part, who knows but the ones site I have attached below is from the DNR in Illinois. I would hope they have it correct. Either case interesting learnings here.

Here is a site with southern redbelly Dance minnows :
http://dnr.state.il.us/LANDS/education/fish/minnow.htm

And here is a site with what I am more used to as the Dace family of minnows:
http://www.coordinatedreview.org/PA_Exec/Fish_Boat/pafish/fishhtms/chap11.htm

I didn't think there was a Dace and a Dance minnow but I guess I learned something new today.

Eric :

Great name . I am one also.

I think but am not positive that is a typo in Ill. material. Look in the web site in my post first above and look under minnows . It lists the So. Redbelly Dace same fish as Ill. One of them has it wrong . I bet it is a typo in Ill. info. ewest

Thanks and I am sure you are correct. I have always known it as a Dace family but with the way different areas around this country call things, ( I am tired of trying to figure out what is a perch and a sunfish based on where your from LOL ) I was thinking that if the person was from that area then he may know them as such. I personally would rather go by the correct name ie. Pimephales promelas then at least we would know what we are looking for. But alas maybe thats the nerd engineer in me that likes dealing with facts and verfiable details.

As for the DANCE or DACE minnows I am sure they call themselfs something entirely different and as such we are both incorrect!! :rolleyes:

Basically any minnow that can spawn in a pond and produce a decent number of offspring each year is good in a pond setting. Many of the creek - stream minnows require stream influence or habitats for successful spawining. In most ponds the bass will fairly quickly eliminate most of the smaller sized minnows and shiners including the dace. Exceptions are in ponds with weed beds that act as expansive refuge areas for the minnows.

Fathead minnows are promoted heavily because they are readily available and easy for hatcheries to spawn, raise and transport. I never saw or heard of a hatchery that sells dace. I suspect they are hard to raise in a typical pond setting. I would like to obtain dace that can spawn in a pond.

John, do you know the three species of minnows that you have in your pond? It will very interesting to see which species is able to survive after two or three years "pressure" from predatory fish.

Turns out that this pond used to have a creek running though it. The pond currently has a main spring that flows out over a large gravel bed. There is a second spring that I was unaware of at the end of what looks like a finger off the pond. The finger has a slow flow and the bottom looks like a creek bed. Both these two areas have been fence off so the carp, or larger predators cannot get into them. The pond also has two large weed beds that are also fenced off with a mesh fence that doesn’t allow carp or adult predators in. The ponds outlet runs about fifty yards down to a wetland with a creek running though it. The person that built the pond diverted the main flow of this creek away from where the pond is now. In times of very high water the pond a wetland flood into a low forest border area, which must allow fish to cross over.

Because of the flow from the springs and the once or twice a year hook up with the wet land this pond has most of what you’d expect to find in a Potomac drainage creek. So far I have netted and identified- Rosyside Dace, Longnose Dance, Pearl Dance, and Fat Head minnows as well. In addition to the Dance I have caught two Potomac Sculpins and a Northern Hog Sucker. This is in addition to the grass or Israeli Carp with dominate the pond. I have stocked 8 Musky, and two Bowfins so it will be interesting to see what happens.

There are also a few sunfish that I cannot identify. They are small and have weird stripes. I have only netted a few so they are probably newer arrivals.

While on the subject of minnows. I believe I have these guys in my pond Stargazing minnow .

Along with gambusia minnow/mosquito fish. Those being the only minnows I know of. Both have been in there for years beforehand and so I don't know how either even got there .

Will feeding fathead minnows during the spawn pull them away from the spawn?

Allchca - You "guys" have to be very carefull about using internet pictures or picture keys for identifying minnows and shiners.

I doubt very much that you have the Stargazing minnows in your pond. Stargazing minnows are known to only occur in eastern Tennessee and western VA. If you have them in your IN pond, you have a new Indiana distribution record for this fish.

JBoat - You have a unique pond habitat that most will not have in a "normal" pond setting. It will be very doubtfull that others can get dace to spawn in a "regular", noncurrent, warmwater pond.

RSwain - Artificial feeding of fatheads will not deter them from spawning. It would probably induce better and more prolific spawns due to better body condition or plumpness from feeding for the adults.

Thanks Bill,
I was conserned since so many were comming to the feed.

Bill,
Yes I see your point.

That site only covers fish that inhabit virginia. So I may or may not have something else. Unless you know from elsewhere that it only lives in west virginia/east tennessee of course. But even with that I do believe that is my mystery minnow. Same shape, same coloring, same characteristics. It seems like the mouth might be a little higher up on mine(might be how I held and looked at them) and color is slightly washed out on mine. They live in the brighter part of the lake where most of the fish have brighter colors anyway though so I think that might be it.

Letting one sit out for awhile then put him in the water clears the coloring up for a better look. Did that with the 9" warmouth I caught last weekend, let him sit in the boat for 2 hours then revived him and put him on a stringer. I went and looked at him later and all I could think was "now THAT's a nice looking warmouth ." If Rocky1 can get a look at one with its "default" colors he can look through the pictures at EFISH and maybe at the least find one that looks kind of like it and go from there. What do you think?

Hey Allchca, If you get one or two of those stargazer minnows pickle them in vodka or 100 proof whiskey. After a couple days, drain off the excess liquid, put the fish in an alcohol damp paper towel, inside of a zip loc bag and mail it to me boxed or in a padded envelope. I will verify the actual species of the fish. I have lots of academic training in minnow and small fish identification.

I think Bill is responsible for all those tequila bottles with worms.