Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Stream Mitigation Costs....question from a newbe..

Folks,

Discovered your site a few months back when we started researching pond construction. It has been an invaluable source of information for someone like me with zero knowledge in this area. I also purchased and read Perfect Pond..Want one. Loved the book and recommend it to anyone just starting out with their pond building dreams. I think my Pond Boss subscription is on my X-Mas wish list now as well.

We have run into our first potential snag in the pond planning stage...my guess is I am dealing with a misunderstanding with our local Army Corp of Engineering group, but I wanted to check with people on this forum to see what they have experienced.

The Army corps agent said there are Stream Mitigation laws that require new pond builders to deposit $$ into a Stream Bank for any pond that affects streams flows beyond approx 300 linear feet from the dam to pond-end. In our design, we are taking about 1000 linear feet of run-off stream (using 2 run-off streams to get a much larger drainage area) and building an embankment pond using using an 18 foot dam at its highest point at the convergence point of these two run-offs areas. According to our NRCS agent, the topography of the land was perfect for building a pond at this point. Now, these run-offs are NOT official "creeks"...they dry up shortly after rains in the summer months. However, the Army Corp person did not explicitly define what a "stream" is. According the the letter of this law, we might have to deposit huge dollars into this "stream bank" to compensate for modified water run-off. No way in you know what I will ever pay these fees....it would be government-approved theft for the rates they would charge. We will simpley not build the pond.

Questions on my side...

1.) Has anyone on the forum dealt with stream mitigation and stream banks? Sure sounds like something major land developers, highway planners, and others might deal with if they affect a river or major stream, but not a farm owner like us...
2.) What defines a "stream"? Who can help us in defining this term as it relates to a stream bank?
3.) What recourse would we have if this law really applies to us? I find it hard to believe a 1.5 acre farm pond would affect stream mitigation laws...but again, I have no experience here. The Army Corp person has at least forced us to investigate further.

Any and all advice on this front would help.

By the way, for those interested, I have been following advice from you guys and from the Perfect Pond book from the start. I was hoping to get some pictures of the site posted so you could follow our progress once we started breaking ground. Here is what we have done so far...

1.) Local NRCS agent has been on-site and has taken several soil samples. As I thought, looks like we have plenty of good clay to work with (being in tobacco-growing region..no surprise there)

2.) we have identified our prefered site and with the great help from our NRCS agent, we surveyed and mapped the pond site As a side note, Pittsylvania County, Virginia NRCS has been fantastic to work with. I expected almost nothing from them, and have gotten instead years of pond-building experience, access to contractors, and even a complete set of Engineering drawings. I couldn't be happier with the help they have provided.

3.) I have a set of engineering drawings for the whole project (Dam, spillways, etc). I was just getting set to get some dirt movers to bid the project when the Army Corp dropped this stream mitigation bomb on us. My NRCS guy said he heard something like this has just come into play, but he had no real advice for us. Until I resolve this one, we will be stuck.

Thanks againg for any and all advice you all have.

John

Hello John and welcome to Pond Boss. Thanks for posting. Hold on and I'm sure some of the forum experts will be able to help you out.

If you were out West, I would recommend Mike Mitchell at Queen of the River fisheries consulting (Colorado) in a heartbeat. He may still be the man to see.

If Lusk or someone else doesn't have a closer consultant, we can get you in touch with Mike.

Thanks, Theo...if I do not hear back from someone else closer to Virginia, would love to talke to Mike.

John

I am no expert but from 20 years of working with our local Trout Unlimited group on instream restoration, have dealt with many factions, ( NRCS, Local County Engineers, Local Hydrologists, Ohio DNR, Ohio Division of Wildlife, Ohio EPA and also federal ACoE) so nothing suprises me, I believe you would need to look up inside Virginia Law the "definition of Stream", each state is different and here in Ohio, stream is not defined but the term "Navigable" is defined as "any flow, from one property to another , that even at high water, is large enough to float a log downstream, shall be considered "Navigable"" so if something that small is called navigable, I bet your seasonal stream has a name and shall be considered a stream which may make you responsible.

I suspect that these regulations were put into effect to help keep folks from mining inside stream banks ( thats popular here in Ohio for gravel companies to just start mining inside stream beds) and this is a way to get rehab money put back into the coffers to replace the riparian zone alone the stream beds.

Wetland Mitigation is what Wal Marts are famous for, they buy swamp land for nothing, move a ton of dirt around, build on it and at the same time are required by law to "replace" the wetland they destroyed somewhwre else and they are still millions of dollars ahead of buying expensive commercial property.

Back to the point, I suggest contacting the Army CoE folks and getting them onsite ASAP to see what you have planned and that way they can see what your plans are and how you are not going to be impeding the riparian zones and by adding water onto the property you ll actually be able to increase wildlife and inducing a full time wet ecosystem. I imagine they may even be able to offer you assistance ( financially through grants) if you are able to add specific types of trees, grasses or wildlife planting to enhance what may have been detroyed in the process.
I will tell you these folks are not the ones to piss off, and youll get tons further towards getting an exemption from them in writing with suger vs raising cane with them, I know from vast experiences dealing with govt agencies, they have nothing to loose to make your life hell.

Last point, here in Ohio, an 18 ft dam is no longer possible to be built unless you personally cover the flooding Insurance downstream in a bond. Therefore all the old large farm ponds here in ohio have all had there dams recently inspected by FEMA and if it didnt pass, the lakes had to be drained, this is because the FEMA Flood zone maps have all been updated since we locally have had over a dozen 500 year floods in the last 10 years, Go figure that one out eh?? Long story short, I wouldnt push how big the dam will be to them and find out just how big you can go without any permits and go from there.

Good luc and keep us in the loop.

Salmonid ( Mark)

Welcome to the forum...

There are a few Virginia members on here. Best of luck in getting things straightened out!

John,

First, welcome to Pond Boss. You will get lots of help.

This document should at least help with some definitions and links: Virginia DEQ Water Impoundment Guidance

I'll put out some feelers in the morning with friends here in WV who should have counterparts in VA. I hopefully can find a knowledgeable contact to assist you on your side of the border. I've also got some soil scientist friends in Fauquier County who work closely with the DEQ in doing wetlands remediation. I'll see if they have any good contacts. Lastly, if you've got access to a good excavating company in your area, they can be very helpful in getting any necessary permits.

I'm always glad to see another "local." I'm just over the border on Route 50 west of Winchester.

Regards,
Ken

I'm not quite sure whether it's hilarious or sad, but the Walmart nearest here was built on a swamp.

Check this company out: http://www.vawaters.com/ They probably can assist you in your needs and advise you on what to do...

In a I believe, New York State, Wallmart built on an Indian burial ground. When asked by the Native Americans if they could relocate they refused but installed a plaque and some Indiana artifacts as a concession.

I think they also took the Chief to the jewelry dept an gave him $24 worth of their finest.

Obscure AND classical.

This looks a lot like my first post on pondboss. Glad that episode is all over.

Ken,

Document is very helpful. Our plan sure fits under all the guidelines I see in this document. However, does not seem to cover stream mitigation. I'm going to contact Virgina Waters and Wetlands (note from another person on the blog....thanks much for this lead). I'll get to the bottom of this one way or another.

John

I think you will find them very knowledgeable... If they can't help you out, no one can! They specialize in wetland and stream mitigation. How much they'll charge for the consultation is another question all together! HAHA Best of luck!