Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations New Pond owner with questions

Hello Everyone,

I am a new owner of a freshly dug pond in Michigan and need some help and opinions. Beeen reading the forum and making my first post on my new pond.

History of the pond. The pond is located on a 20 acre parcel that has 4-7 feet of sand on most of the property and then nice clay very deep. A one acre pond that held 2-4 feet of water was on the property that was made from the county taking sand many years ago to build local roads (they took the sand to the clay and then stopped leaving a shallow pond).

When I bought the property a year ago I knew I was on a sand pit and hoped that I could find someone that would take sand in exchange for making me a bigger and deeper pond. This fall the county was scheduled to prepare a local road right around the corner for paving. I asked them if they needed sand and they said yes. Anyway, they took about 10,000 yards of sand for the road project and paid someone the money for the sand to dig me my pond.

Here is what they did. They drained the old pond. The stripped all the sand off of a few acres next to the existing pond to the clay. They then dug the clay and packed the clay at least 10 feet around that area leaving a pond with clay all the way to the top. It is 20 feet deep in one area.

The picture is where the project is right now. I contractor is finishing up all the sides over the next 2 weeks and making them look nice and then I will plant some rye around most the pond except a large beach area where I will have all sand. This is Phase 1.

My plans for the pond is #1 a swimming hole for the kids and second I would like to have a nice fishing hole. My Plan it to have it fill naturally that I hear will take a year or two. If I have issues I would tap a spring but will try the natural way first.

Next year they will be doing another mile of road and will need more sand. I of course will allow them to take more sand in exchange for an even larger pond. When they take that sand the pond will be about 3 ½ acres in size. Lets call that Phase 2.

Questions:

Can I put some fish in the pond and will they live if I do not have any objects in the water? I plan to have Bluegill, bass and catfish and maybe perch. Until they finish Phase 2 of the pond I do not want to buy fish. The family cottage is right around the corner of a large lake and we can catch many bluegill and perch off the dock (50 in a few hours). Is it OK to put these in the pond to get things started? Will they live without anything in the water or grass on the edge?

I am having the excavator guy put sand on top of the clay 6-12 inches deep around the pond as I have plenty of sand so that it will not be mucky. Is this OK? Want to be able to walk out of other parts of the pond it not be mucky. Is all this sand going to just wash to the bottom?

The Phase one portion I want for it to not have many objects in the water. The Phase 2 I will add an Island and objects for the fish to live and breed. Is there anything that you see the pond could use or things in the design or shape that should be changed?

A man who posts a pic of his pond on his first post... You did your homework and know we like pics!

WELCOME TO THE FORUM...

Fish can live in water without objects in it. It may affects survival rates of young, success of spawning etc, but fish will survive. I wouldn't recommend stocking a new pond with wild fish. It can be very hard to establish a balanced fishery that way and there is always the risk of introducing disease and parasites to your new investment. Fish would live without anything in the water or grass around the edge, but you may have issues with sedimentation which can affect water quality. The sand may very well sink into the muck or follow gravity to the depths of your pond. If you can line the pond with fabric and lay the sand over it or lay cinder blocks to form a frame to hold the sand in place that may help...

Take advantage of the pond not having much water in it now to put in structure. Look at the structure archives to get some ideas. Pallets, real and or pvc trees work well, a dock and or fishing pier can be nice as well. A rock pile is also a nice addition. I would plant the pond bottom with winter rye to keep erosion to a minimum. When the rye floods it will help jump start your pond's zooplankton community and be a double bonus in that regard. When the pond reaches half pool, you can stock FHM. That should be spring time. Then you can decide exactly what route you want to go with the fish community. However, FHM are a can't go wrong fish to stock...

Best of luck and again welcome to the forum!

Thanks for the help. The pond is lined all the way around with nice hard clay so I do not think the sand will sink into the clay. As you can see I have plenty of sand. That pile to the right is 15 feet high by 30 feet wide by 100 feet long. Would it help to have the escavator make a lip in the beach area down where the water is now to stop sand from working its way to the bottom? Do that instead of laying cinder blocks. I can always add more sand to the beach area.

This is phase one of the pond and an additional acre and 1/2
will be added next year. Those acres of pond I will to make for the fish with structures. I will ad some items this weekend to the backside of the pond (stumps and rock piles) but want to have the right side clear and a big beach area. When Phase 2 is dug should the sides be not so gradual like a big swimming pool like Phase 1 is? Is the current ponds bottom and sides too neat for fish?

If the pond is lined entirely with clay can I assume that water to fill it is only coming from rain and not coming from runoff of surrounding acreage? The water in it came from one rain of .65 inches of rain. It is probably 6 feet deep so far.

So I should plant rye past my predicted water line at full pool? Will it just die once the water comes up? I have no idea how fast this pond will fill but hoping by spring to have a decent amount of water.

Once again the sides are packed with at least 10 feet of clay on the sides where 4-7 feet of sand was removed. Will hard clay erode?

The water in the pond is from a fresh rain and is very murky. Will sand being layed all the way around the pond help to keep the water clear or are plants the only thing to clear up the water.

When Phase 2 is dug should the sides be not so gradual like a big swimming pool like Phase 1 is? Is the current ponds bottom and sides too neat for fish?

I'd keep the sides at a slope where a person who was in the water could easily walk out. Like CJ said above, fish will live in the pond, but lack of structure/cover will make it easier for predators to find the fry.

If the pond is lined entirely with clay can I assume that water to fill it is only coming from rain and not coming from runoff of surrounding acreage? The water in it came from one rain of .65 inches of rain. It is probably 6 feet deep so far.

So I should plant rye past my predicted water line at full pool? Will it just die once the water comes up?

It all depends on the slope of the surrounding land, and if the sides of the pond are built up higher than the surrounding land. I would plant rye all the way down to the current water level, it will stop any erosion on the ponds' sides as it fills with water, keeping the pond at the depth that you want. The more erosion, the shallower the deepest part will be. The rye will die once it's under water for a while, and help get the building blocks of the pond in place (nutrients/bacteria/plankton). I had a problem when digging my pond with the water filtering down thru the sand until it hit the clay, then it ran into the pond, taking a LOT of the sand with it.

Will hard clay erode? All soils will erode, even rock. It won't erode as fast as the sand will, but it will erode. Fast enough to be an issue? I'm not sure. Did any of the hard clay erode with the last rain? If it did, then you'll have erosion.

The water in the pond is from a fresh rain and is very murky. Will sand being layed all the way around the pond help to keep the water clear or are plants the only thing to clear up the water. It depends. Plants won't clear up the water if it's particles that stay in suspension, I think Alum will clear it. Rainman has more experience with doing that than I do.

It looks like the project is a good one, and easy on the wallet!

Welcome to Pond Boss Patrick, we're glad you found us. And thanks for joining in a posting!

The sides right now are at a level that somene can easily walk out. Many of the pics of ponds that were made for fishing that I saw on this forum did not seem to be like that. They seems to have teirs, sunken islands and uneven shoreline.

Right now my pond guy is cleaning up the sides. He is actually pulling more sand from behind the clay sides and pushing the clay that is stacked up on t sides into the hole. So except for a sleding hill he is making with some of the clay the ground will be level with the land and not built up around the pond. The old ponds water level was 2-3 feet below ground level but the sides were all sand. Hopefully water level will rise now that they are packed with clay to the top.

I do not see much clay eroding but the sand definately will that he is placing on top of the clay. He is placing sand half the way down to the top so I want some of it to fall to the bottom anyway. Will have to wait until spring to see what the water does with regard to clarity.

What exactly is "Alum"?

Project should be done by end of next week. Is this too late to plant Rye? Is Winter Rye different Rye or are they the same thing?

As yes so far the project has been very easy on the wallet - especially when I have been getting paid for all the trees cut down to make room for the pond! This is the best part so far -lol!

Depending how far you are up in Mi., it's getting late in the year for planting. I'd be tempted to plant winter wheat or winter oats and then overseed with rye. As long as it's not below freezing the wheat/oats should come up. I planted some a couple weeks ago and it's almost 6" tall now (winter wheat and buck forage oats).

As for alum, it's not a slam dunk. To save a bit of time, read as many posts as you can here: Muddy water

I am about half way up in Michigan. I think I will wait until spring to plant. Will still need to drag around the lake with a harrow rake with a UTV after the excavator gets done.

Also it is still very early and I have no idea if I will have a muddy water problem yet - or even enough water.

Erosion over the packed clay will erode trenches into the bank as water runs toward the pool. Eroding water is what has made your existing water muddy.
It is getting cool in mid-Michigan for planting grasses. If you get some seed planted this week-end, some types will sprout before winter if weather stays mild. Mix fast sprouting types with oats,wheat, or spelt. Planting seed on the sloping banks will mostly wash seed into the pond. Snow cover in mid-MI will usually protect new growth. Usually unsprouted seed will sprout in spring.

I doubt you will need alum. Your water should clear by itself once you get the grass established on areas where water runs over the soil into the pond.
Since your water is pretty turbid, I would wait till spring before stocking any fish. Very little plankton (food chain base) grows in muddy water. Add 5-10 gallons of water from the adjacent lake as plankton seed. By spring some plankton will be established enough for minnows and fingerling fish. Imlay City fish farm is in mid-MI. They have a good diversity of fish.

Phase 2 pond. I would consider building a second pond instead of enlarging the existing pond. A second pond will allow you to have a second type of different fishery. Pond 1 could be largemouth bluegill, pumpkinseed sunfish, catfish. Pond 2 could be yellow perch, smallmouth bass and or walleye.
Enlarging the first pond will cause another severe muddy water event increasing the amount of mud & unconsolidated clays in the the basin. A larger pond is a little more difficult and more costly to manage compared too 2 smaller ponds.

I`w used artifiscial grasmats from soccerfields/tenis courts, as carpeting on the soil to keep it in place or stabelise it.
Gett them for free or ewen sometimes get payd to come and pick them up.
I'l throw out the seeds, and roll out the carpets, then I'l seed again where ever needed on top off carpeting the grass seeds drop thru.
If I plant threes or bushes in it,I youst us a sharp showel and cut a X in the thurf, lift up and stick it in.
It reinforce the ground, so i don't leave tracks when I have to drive on.
These turfs are changed on a irregular basis, in the sportfields,so there is a constant but irregulare suply.
PAUL

Patrick asks "Would it help to have the escavator make a lip in the beach area down where the water is now (instead of cement blocks) to stop sand from working its way to the bottom?"
This earth berm technique works as I have used it to hold pea gravel in the beach area. Have excavator tamp or pack the top of the lip or dirt curb/berm to firm up the mound of dirt. With out packing it to can easily wash away during heavy rains. If you have a beach area with sand and want to keep sand in place until it is unindated with water cover the beach area with cheap tarps or sheets plastic weighted at the edges.

As a Pond Doctor, is my experience with pondowners that they make the swimming beach area way too large. Keep in mind after a few years, to keep the beach from turning black under the surface, the area will need frequent activity or a regular manual raking. Nature cleans beaches in lakes with regular strong wave activity which ponds do not get. Raking frequency will depend on amount of wave activity and rate of accumlation of organics such as leaves/dead algae. Manual raking usually needs to be done monthly to keep beach fairly clean and not looking or becoming black/septic.

The Phase 2 project is to make the current pond bigger which is my main goal. I want a BIG pond! Having bluegill, bass, perch and catfish is all I want. I want to be able to drive a small boat on it. If I can more people to take sand in exchange for getting the pond bigger there may be more phases.

I will have the excavator add a lip to the bottom of the beach area. That area will have lots of sand but other areas will have sand too. I have an unlimited supply of free sand on the property so not worried about sand.

I am assuming that I will have to drag my beach area on a regular basis for it to stay nice. Dragging it with my harrow rake will be easy with a Polaris Ranger and take just a few minutes. Also was under the assumption I would add some sand to the beach each year. If I did not have an unlimited supply of free sand I would most definately have a smaller beach. This is a little better pic of the main beach area. You can see one spot in the middle where there was a little errosion. I will have the sand 18-24 inches deep at the top on the shoreline after the pond is full.

What Next? Winter seems to be over in Michigan and 2 weeks of extremely warm weather has melted the snow and pond. Since the last pic the pond is now about 75% full. We did not get much snow this year or I think it would be almost full. The water is a beautiful clear blue green color that you can see very deep. Sand has been placed around the edges of the entire pond. Except for the areas that I want to stay all sand for a beach I plan on putting some rye grass seed. In the summer the pond will be expanded and about another acre of pond will be added. Here are some questions. In that area I will add structure for fish and the current pond has none. Will fish live even though there are no plants currently on the edges of the pond? Will fish live with no structure? Will fish reproduce with no structure? What else needs to be done?

PatrickMell, a late welcome to the forum. I have not noticed anyone else say this so i will. Its very easy to control erosion with hay. Hay is cheap to buy, it normally cost $3 per sq bale for last years cuttings. Square bales are easier to use since can be torn apart, round bale are tough to get apart. Apply it liberally all over the pond area to control erosion. It will also help start the building block/food base in the pond. I used 25 sq bales on my .89 ac pond, and at $3.00 each that was cheap erosion control. My yoy love hiding in the hay, it gives them good cover in the begining.

Thanks for the post. Are you saying to put hay around the banks or in the pond? I was going to put hay around the bank after I put some Rye seed. What I need to know is if the fish will live even though right now there is no structure or weeds in the pond. Would start with blue gill and minnows. Pretty sure the minnows would be fine.

Patrick, You can go ahead with the minnows and bg, they will be fine. Take the hay and sprinkle it everywhere, in and out of the pond and on the beach. Take several bales, break them apart into big chunks and toss them in the water. They will sink in a few days. When they do you will have instant grass in the pond for the minnows to hide in and eat the stuff that grows on it. every pile i have in my pond holds hundreds of minnows in the grass as well as just hanging around it for safety. I see bg hanging near them picking off the minnows as well. Its great instant habitat. I also took a few bales in the boat and tossed them in the middle of the pond where they sunk after a week or so. From what i see at the waters edge, the bales in the open water are doing the same thing just deeper in the pond. A big bonous is that if you put down rye seed then hay over the top it makes it harder for the birds to get to the seed.

The biggest thing right now to pay attention to is getting the ground around the pond covered.

The rye grass is good, but until it grows, the hay will help keep things in place. Two autumns ago when my pond was filling, a huge rain hit (6 inches in Ann Arbor) and washed all of sand and dirt around my pond into the pond. It was a mess, and I probably lost a couple of feet in my deepest part of my pond.

Seed down to the current water line. As the pond continues to fill, the grass underwater provides cover.

Time to think about spring stocking. What an exciting time!


Where are you located (hold up your hand and point)

Ok Thanks. Right now the pond is like a freshly cleaned swimming pool, but it has only been 10-14 days since it was frozen. Even the big lake down the road has virtually no weeds right now. Will try that.