Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose advice on forage fish

I agree Dave, it's hard to find anyone who can wait that long to stock bass.. I am in my second year of stocking forage in my pond and I am dying! I so want to put some bass in there!

Wow!! Guys, thanks for taking the time and putting in the thoughtful advice for my little ole pond. I REALLY appreciate it. Some really good stuff.

I had a great spawn with the BG I put in last year, and the FHM went crazy. I know the bass I just added are in "hog heaven" right now. I will get 15-20 more 8-12" bass in there by the week end. Hopefully I've caught it early enough so that the bass can gobble up the overload of BG and bring this thing into a balance for decent BG and LMB.

My pond has thousands of tadpoles and small frogs in it also, so the LMB should have a pretty good variety for supper.

Again, guys, I'm overwhelmed with the time and effort you spent for me. Thanks soooo much.

Be careful JD. You will no doubt notice that we often don't agree.

Maintaining a pond is like raising kids. It seems to change a lot over time and maintenance is always needed. No 2 are exactly alike and we can only speak in generalities. Sometimes it works and other times....

DD, point well taken. I'm seeing some consistant general ideas, and I'll adapt them to my specific situation. But, again, thanks for the help guys.

I hope to have some pic of my little project up here soon. I'd like ya'lls feed back on that too when it happens.

"Sometimes it works and other times...." we just put on our white sneakers and wade into the pond.

back from cozumel/progresso! been gazing at a really big pond, the good ole gulf of mexico...ate much seafood. my waiter in the dining room's name was Alongkot??! from Thailand
Wow I missed alot of discussion>>>>>>>>thanks to everyone for input!!

after reading all the posts, i think trying to manage for good sized of both bluegill and bass will be a little tricky even though I will thoroughly enjoy the managing(fishing) since my pond is about 30 feet from my backdoor. i have made my mind up to go more towards the larger bass. remember, i also will stock RES. i have gathered from these posts with this new goal in mind i should stock BG and be patient before stocking bass.

could y'all weigh in again with hard numbers(even if the advise differs) for stocking and also for when to stock what with my new goals in mind?--1 3/4 acre, 9ft max depth. lots of structure. NE Mississippi...should be full by spring...want LMB/BG/RES with the new goal of large bass over larger sunfish

Thanks again...also what forage species smaller than bluegill in your opinion should be stocked and when in relation to the stated species--LMB/BG/RES?

OK, as stocking numbers and other details have been so controversial lately, I will say this is just my opinion. It may not be the right opinion. It is just an opinion...

I would get FHM stocked immediately. They can't go wrong.

In the spring I'd stock:

10 pounds of GSH
2500 BG
300 RES

The following spring I'd stock:

A truck load of TFS
50 F1 LMB
25 northern LMB
25 FL LMB

That should get you off to one heck of start towards growing some large bass!

Cougar, I agree with CJB. I stocked 10 lbs. of fatheads this spring along with BG and some CC. The FH are constantly in spawning mode. It seems like the first batch spawned may be spawning already. I might be wrong. I'm not sure how long they take to reach maturity. It just seems impossible that the original 10 lbs have turned into what I now have. I bet I have 100 lbs. by now. My pond is about 1.5 acres and the entire perimeter is thick with fry. I can't imagine how thick they will be next year when I start stocking mature bass. They BG and CC are growing at incredible rates but haven't even begun to put a dent in the FH population. My BG have more than doubled in size and the CC have went from 3" to 5" to 10" to 12" since May. I still feed every day. The FH were relatively inexpensive and have been a great investment. My neighbor and I built ponds within a month or 2 of each other. We both stocked at the same time this spring. He went with all fingerlings and stocked LMB, BG, YP, GS, FH, and CC. The LMB are 4 or 5 inches now and the FH are already completely gone. He still has some GS. They gave his LMB a small head start but I don't consider it smart investment. Had he waited, who knows how much that 10 lbs. would have become. I can't begin to estimate how many I'll have next year.

Cougar if the pond is half full I say go with Cj numbers but not reason not to do them all NOW. fhm, bg, res. Then next spring threadfin shad and the bass in June. keep in mind it may be difficult to get all three subspecies of lmb at the sametime. If faced with dilema there I feel your fine with 75 F1 and that is it.

cougar, As I said earlier, I like waiting on the bass. IMO you can actually LOOSE a years growth by putting the bass in with the forage fish. By waiting a year for the base of the new pond's forage to multiply & completly fill the void & then stock bass they will have a better chance of reaching they're greatest potiential size.
IMO if you take this approach you're bass will be larger & have a better w/r than your neighbors in 2 yrs.

not quite half full. not sure about putting in lepomis yet--though I bet i've already got a few GSF, GO GSFA!

i plan to be very patient, Ric, with the bass stocking.

thanks for the advice cj

who would y'all recommend to buy fish from considering i live in NE Miss.? Don't have a clue.

also anyone care to give me a ballpark estimate of a total price for the numbers cj suggested?

thanks

I would have to agree with Greg. Until I see hard numbers in a scientific study showing a clear benefit from waiting a year, it just seems like a nice theory to me. I've read multiple posts on here in the past month about pond owners in AL who are getting three pounds a year growth from their F-1s, in more than one instance catching ten-pound bass that are three years old, and I'm pretty sure that the bass weren't stocked a year after the bluegill and other forage in any of those. Wasn't at least one of those ponds a client of yours, Greg?

If you want a pond full of forage, stock a bunch of forage (lots of FHM, 1000 or more bluegill per acre, threadfin shad) when you stock the bass. Just stocking 1000 bluegill per acre will give a pond a bluegill-heavy dynamic that the bass will never be able to tip short of very heavy fishing pressure on the bluegill coupled with no bass ever being kept for years. Unless a different strain of bluegill that isn't known throughout the U.S. for overpopulating ponds, is being mentioned in these recommendations, all it takes for bass to have all the forage they can ever hope to eat is to stock heavy on the bluegill initially and not keep any bluegill. And if a pond owner wanted to stock threadfin, or gizzard shad in a larger pond, if good numbers of those are stocked initially, especially in conjunction with bluegill, the bass are going to have all they could possibly eat. If it's better initial growth that this method aims for, that's easily accomplished simply by stocking a large number of FHM initially. By the time the bass have gone through the fatheads the bluegill will already be well on their way to ubiquity.

I would be all for this idea if it were proven; even as a theory I probably wouldn't have any opinion one way or the other if it weren't for the fact that it requires a pond owner to wait a year that very likely is just a wasted year said owner could have bass growing just as fast in his pond as they will once they're finally stocked. I know that there was an article (in Pond Boss?) on this management plan; I don't remember any data in the way of a study. And, if the study wasn't done with prolific forage such as bluegill and shad, then here again it would be flawed. If, on the other hand, I just didn't read carefully and there has been a study or studies in which ponds stocked with prolific forage a year before bass were compared with ponds stocked with prolific forage at the same time as bass, and the delayed-bass ponds had better growth, I'll eat my humble pie and consider myself a little wiser.

Now I am like the ultimate newbie on this, but isn't the whole idea of stocking forage a year earlier just a way to save some money.

If you give them time to spawn you have to spend less on the original stockers? Otherwise just spend more stocking to begin with and have the bass sooner?

I thought that was the whole thing about it.

With FHM and GSH in particular it is a way to save money. 5 pounds of FHM becomes easily 50 pounds of FHM a year later. GSH are similar...

For growing trophy bass, I am a big fan in forage fish stock piling, particularly in southern waters. In more northern waters, one has to be careful particularly if you include BG as forage fish.

It might be a way of lessing a pondmeisters chance on introducing unwanted species as well. i.e. Your chance of getting an unwanted fish species is larger with a bigger amount of FH stockers, correct?

Walt, I believe that we will continue to disagree with timing on stocking predators. I don't recall, nor have I looked for, scientific evidence on either practice.

I know an extremely well established forage base works for me and will continue to do it. Your mileage evidently varies.

No matter what practice is used, our biggest problem in the deep South continues to be bass heavy ponds after about the 3rd or 4th year. For this, timing isn't a factor. Lack of maintenance is.

I would agree that lack of maintenance can lead to bass-heavy ponds. Twenty years ago, not nearly as many anglers practiced catch-and-release, but as anglers caught on, this practice was misapplied to ponds. Anglers thought they were doing the pond a favor, when in fact, for the bass fishing at least, they were hurting it. But I've also seen many ponds in which the bass had been overfished, allowing the bluegill to overpopulate to the point that the bass could not spawn successfully and there were only a handful of bass left, or in some cases, none left.

Yes esshup... Sorting 5 pounds of FHM is a hole lot easier than 50 pounds! Having read enough posts on here, stock contamination is unfortunately way too common. It concerns me greatly considering I am doing a RES only pond with no desire for reproducing BG. So when I go to stock RES, I sure hope they aren't contaminated. I also hand sorted all the forage fish I have already put in the pond.

Wouldn't you know that a discussion such as this occurs when I'm at my pond property with limited to no internet connection.

For the most part this has been a respectful discussion. Let's keep it that way and help to provide a learning experience.

Although I realize that a stocking plan would be an "it depends" type of situation I would really like to know the opinion of several of our forum experts as to the advantages or disadvantages of a "stock everything now" or a "stock forage and wait" approaches to pond stocking.

Mark Cornwell, based upon his Pond Boss magazine biography, is a professor in the fisheries department at the University Of New York. He is a very well known and well respected individual. Has he written a similar article as the one above discussion pond stocking in southern waters? I found the article above fasinating!

I think this can become a fantastic thread if we can get some input from some of our well known and well respected experts. I'd really like to hear from Dr. Dave Wills, The Pond Doctor - Wild Bill Cody, Eric West, and obviously Bob Lusk. Any chance of some additional input to this thread?

Please note my request above is not meant to discount the experience or expertise of any one that has posted to this thread.

Ok in a hurry so I apologize if brief. Please do not take this as arrogance. I can grow the heck out of big bass in a hurry. It is kinda frustrating to read all of these theories on what works. We have tired it all and can tell you what works. If you guys come to PB I will have a talk about it.
This thread is all over the place. What does it mean wait a year??? I agree if up north probably not good. Ok now should you wait a year in the south? It depends on what is stocked and when. The key is good forage base for quality/trophy bass as described by cougar. This means higher than normal stocking rates 2000/bg/ac will not be too many if done right. If stocked summer- fall- winter – up to early March you can turn around and stock bass come June. Especially if stocked with fhm as well. Yes we get bass to over 3 lbs in 16 months (October year after bass went in in June). Even better than this for some. Can you wait until the following June sure but why? If you want to stock many less fish then sure that would work to built up even more forage. That is the only case I suggest waiting. Now if pond is not ready and you put bg in in April/May as 1-2” then yes you would wait a year and put bass in the following June. Get it? I hope this makes sense. Cougar if your pond if half full I see no reason at all to wait on lepomis stocking they do well with stocking with the fhm both built up populations and then follow with June bass. It will work if followed. If you wait another year on bass you lost a year they will still grow with similar growth rates the following year. IN fact other theories hold in some cases then you got so many bluegill the intermediate size bluegill may compete with fingerling bass for similar food source.

Cougar tons of hatcheries in ARK. If you want referral let me know. If you want to compare prices here are our prices to give you some idea. http://lakework.com/site/fish-stocking.php
I might even help you out when coming back from ark run if interested. Good luck.

You guys should read PB mag. Couple issues back was an article on the subject of LMB growth and forage in the south. I will put parts below then we can discuss.

Actual data from study so you can compare to my text.

Ponds were stocked with bluegills (mean weight 1.4 g) in mid March 2003 at a rate of

3,705 fish ha–1. The bluegill stocking rate was 50% higher than normally recommended

as we attempted to maximize food resources for largemouth bass (Masser

1992). Largemouth bass (mean weight 1.8 g) were stocked into the ponds at the

standard rate of 248 fish ha–1 (Swingle 1950b) in late May 2003, after bluegills had

spawned.



THE CUTTING EDGE – SCIENCE REVIEW
By Eric West





A recent article of interest Population Size, Survival, and Growth of Largemouth Bass One Year After Stocking in Four Ponds by Steve M. Sammons, and Michael J. Maceina, in 2005 Proceedings of the Annual Conference Southeastern Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies 59:241–250.



I will point out that based on studies like this and their personal observations private fisheries scientist presenters at last year’s Pond Boss Convention recommended stocking small bluegill at 2000 per acre (twice the old stocking rate) in southern largemouth bass ponds to achieve good growth rates. Notice good growth rates not trophy LMB. The use of the word trophy in the study refers to Anderson Wr and condition indices not 10lb LMB. Note Proportional Stock Density (PSD). Three new size categories - preferred, memorable, and trophy - were developed to accompany previously established stock and quality lengths.


Due to the high bluegill stocking rate (150% of the normal suggested rate), largemouth bass presumably had an abundant food supply. The relatively low density of largemouth

bass, coupled with an assumed unlimited food supply, allowed these fish to forage at close to maximum rates, leading to rapid growth and high condition or relative

weight.



Bioenergetic models estimated that the largemouth bass population in these ponds consumed between 132 and 171 kg ha (roughly 150 lbs per acre) of bluegills in the first 300 days after stocking to maintain the observed growth.



Each population of largemouth bass was predicted to have consumed 4.2 to 6.7 times their own biomass in bluegills in 300 days to maintain these growth rates and biomass.


Recent research has revealed consumption-dependent error in many bioenergetic models, including the one used in this study, which was particularly large when growth rates were fast . Thus, the percent of maximum consumption by largemouth bass estimated in this study were likely underestimated which probably indicates that the bluegill densities in the ponds used in this study may not be great enough to meet predator demand in the future, leading to slower growth, poorer condition, and a possibly lower production of trophy-sized fish.


The fact that the high consumption rates of largemouth bass found in this study were probably underestimated serves as warning of how delicate predator-prey balances are in small ponds, and how easily predator demand can exceed prey supply if predator densities are not strictly controlled . One of the most common themes on the Pond Boss Forum is overabundant largemouth bass in ponds. This study plus current recommendations of 2000 stock size bluegill per acre appear to be a remedy for the tendency of southern ponds to quickly (2 to 3 years) get bass crowded.



Actual text :

Thus, the P-value and

consumption by largemouth bass estimated in this study were likely underestimates,

which may indicate that the bluegill densities in the ponds we used in this study may

not be great enough to meet predator demand in the future, leading to slower growth,

poorer condition, and a possibly lower production of trophy-sized fish.Subsequent year classes of largemouth

bass in these systems are not likely to exhibit the fast growth observed in this study,

as largemouth bass densities increase (Irwin et al. 2003).

However, the fact

that the high consumption rates of largemouth bass found in this study may have

been underestimates serves as warning of how delicate predator-prey balances are

in small ponds, and how easily predator demand can exceed prey supply if predator

densities are not strictly controlled (Geihsler and Holder 1983).



This was in fertilized ponds with small stocker fish BG (1500 per acre) in March followed by LMB (100 per acre) in late may after the BG had spawned. Results were fast initial growth in LMB with the forage base being overeaten if viewed in terms of continued ability to sustain the pond. Other studies upon which this one relied showed in older ponds up to 1.5 X LMB per acre with diminished forage and slow growth.

Eric, do you have the author's permission to reprint that?

Ok, so they stocked LMB AFTER BG had spawned once. It didn't work. That's why I like BG and Fatheads that I can walk on before adding LMB. And, even when I wait a year, I often wind up with too dang many bass compared to forage. Lots more than I can cull.

However, this is a controlled pond. Lots of mileage can vary.

The study or the PB article ?

Yep and cited.

I am embarrassed that I haven't been a regular subscriber to pond boss mag. I shall remedy that!

Thanks for the input on the #'s from everyone.

Thanks Greg, I'd love to talk with you...so you are a fish supplier?

Thanks for that info Eric--by the way, my name is Matt Waldrop==cougar is the mascot of the school at which i teach/coach

i also need to learn to post some pics on here!