Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose advice on forage fish

Hello..
an update on my pond....levee complete...it will be 9ft max...it will be 1 3/4 acres...(decided not to buy the additional land to move the levee down and build the larger pond....

Question: what type of forage fish should i stock here in NE Mississippi? I see on here people advising FHM and golden shiners a lot. I want to have BG/RES/LMB (unless one of the experts thinks that is a bad idea), but I wanted to know what smaller species i should stock and what schedule should I follow in stocking the aforementioned species? Ihope my pond will reach capacity this winter but it could take next spring's rains to top it off.. Also, should i add some sterile carp?

Thanks in advance for advice..

What's your primary species of interest, i.e. are you most interested in LMB, or bluegill/redear? If LMB, shiners will give you bigger bass than if you didn't have them, but in my experience and observation, I've never caught bluegill as large in ponds and lakes that have GSH, as ones that don't, and I've seen in one particular instance a 100-acre lake near my hometown that used to have huge bluegill in years past, but was stocked with GSH a few years ago, and now they've overrun that large lake and the bluegill size has declined dramatically. Half of the GSH diet is crustaceans, insects, zooplankton and snails, which in other words means they're directly competing with your bluegill and redear.

FHM on the other hand are always good to stock as the sunfish and bass both will love them and they don't get large enough to avoid predation. They'll likely be little more than a distant memory within a year of stocking the bass, but in the meantime they'll give all of your fish a much better headstart than they would have had without FHM.

If bluegill and redear are your primary interests, you might want to consider stocking grass shrimp. Fattig's Fish in NE sells them, and bluegill and shellcracker both love them. They'll have a better chance of establishing a population if you have some kind of submergent weeds growing in a few places in the shallows, as weeds are their preferred habitat.

You don't need grass carp unless you don't plan to fertilize. If you fertilize the pond regularly - and in MS it probably won't take much fertilizer - you'll keep a good plankton bloom on the pond, which will make your fish grow exponentially faster, but it will also block out the sunlight from penetrating down into the water such that FA and any other weeds can't grow (except for watermeal and duckweed, and grass carp don't eat them anyway, but you probably won't get them with a new pond). Also, if you plan on feeding, which you absolutely should if big bluegill are a goal, the carp will hog the feed and make it difficult for the bluegill to get much, especially once the carp get to be thirty or forty pounds.

If bluegill and shellcracker are a priority, you might also consider stringing a few strands of fence wire a foot or two above the water in a handful of places around the pond to attract dragonflies. They lay their larvae in the water, and bluegill love said larvae and thrive on them.

Lastly, I would stock coppernose bluegill, as they grow faster and larger than normal bluegill, and tiger or F-1 bass, for the same reason. You could stock the BG/RES this fall, and the LMB next spring. The grass shrimp you could stock as soon as you can get hold of them, and the same for the FHM.

What you stock and when you stock greatly depends on what your goals are for your pond...

Most people have goals based around three ideas:

Trophy bass

Trophy sunfish

A balanced pond with nice sized bass and sunfish, but neither getting to trophy size.

When I say trophy, I mean 10 pound bass and 2 pound sunfish...

Let us know what you're goals are and we can give you better advice. Ewest, one of the moderators lives in the same state as you and probably can give your some very first hand advice. Being in the south, and with a pond almost 2 acres in size leaves you many options!

thanks...nice sized of both sounds good... headed on a cruise ship for a few days... will catch up with y'all if i can find internet access on board

Just MHO. You will not gain anything stocking any predators before you're forage base is well established. It's alyways exciting to get fish in & growing but your bass will grow to a larger size if you wait at least a year after stocking forage. If you want even larger bass only stock 100 in 2 ac.

Actually I don't know many pond managers that recommend waiting a year for bass. In the case of FHM, a year isn't going to matter; the bass will still eliminate them within a few months or less. With bluegill, they don't need a year because bass will never eliminate them and the year is not only superfluous, but they'll very likely overpopulate the pond in that time such that it will be difficult to get it righted again and could take years to do so short of Rotenone. If Cougar cared only about bass, it wouldn't matter that the bluegill were overpopulated, and it could help the bass; but since he wants good-sized fish of both, it would be highly counterproductive to wait a year to stock the bass.

Along those same lines, 100 bass is too few if he wants good-sized sunfish as they won't be enough to keep the sunfish thinned to the point that they grow to good size. 200 should be enough.

The timing of stocking bass is highly dependent on what part of the country you are in... The far south, giving the BG a year jump start is a smart move. In the north, giving the bass a year jump start is a smart move. The bass simply gorge themselves on FHM until the BG are stocked the following year... In the middle, well I'd say stock the BG in the spring and bass in the fall.

As far as pure forage fish such as FHM, BNM, LCS, SFS, etc etc... I would put them in a year before the bass. Most people just can't wait that long though. For example, I am currently stocking a 0.4 acre pond with purely forage fish. I stocked BNM, SFS and BKF last spring, FHM, GSH, LCS and grass shrimp this spring. Next spring I will stock RES. The following spring I will finally put my predators in, SMB, YP and HSB. I hope the patience pays off and many of the forage fish sustain self reproducing populations as I will not be feeding these feed and they will rely solely on a natural food wed.

I've never heard of any state game and fish agency, or university fisheries degree program, that recommends waiting a year from the time of stocking forage to stock bass. I just think this is an idea that doesn't play out in reality the way it sounds in theory, and is just needlessly causing pond owners to waste time with no benefit. Any forage species that can sustain LMB over a period of years in a pond, whether that species be bluegill or threadfin shad or golden shiners, does not need a head start on bass to fill a pond and keep the pond filled with all the forage a bass could ever eat; conversely, a forage species that is going to be denuded by LMB (FHM, for instance) is not going to be any less denuded by getting a head start. I'd certainly be interested to hear if any of the fisheries biologists on here disagree with me, but I've never once heard of any respected authority recommending this.

Regarding stocking bluegill in the South a year before bass: I live in the South. This is a really, really horrible idea for any pond owner that cares anything at all about catching decent-sized bluegill. TWRA stocks bluegill in the fall and bass the following spring; but they never wait longer than that to stock the bass, because bluegill stocked in the fall will most certainly spawn the following spring and again that summer, and with no predators in the pond to control the hatch, the pond would be overrun with thousands of bluegill by the time the bass were stocked. It has been noted many times by biologists that bluegill often spawn several times throughout the course of spring and summer. Even if bass in the 8-10" range were stocked at twice the normal numbers a year after the bluegill, they would not be able to get the bluegill in check; by the following spring when the then-thousands of bluegill spawned, even if their numbers had been significantly dented by the bass, the thousands of bluegill would spawn again, and at this point the pond would be overpopulated to the point that nothing would right it short of a heavy stocking of pike or muskie, or poisoning.

There's a half-acre pond near me that I have permission to fish, that the owner thought was going to be an acre but which ended up being a half-acre due to a leak. He stocked according to recommendations given him (not by me) for a bass-first pond, though he also likes to catch large bluegill; he was told to stock 1,000 bluegill, and he did. He has an automatic feeder on the pond feeding twice a day, and the pond has dozens of bass in the one- to three-pound range, and more than a few in the three- to five-pound range; a six-pounder was caught there a year ago. Despite the pond having an armada of young bass to the point that the owner asks anyone who fishes to keep all bass under two pounds, the bass have made not so much as a dent in the bluegill. And the bluegill average about four ounces, which is pretty poor for a pond on which an automatic feeder has been running for four years.

I don't think you realize how quickly bluegill can overpopulate a pond, CJ. They can do it just from a pond having a few too few bass. I fished a pond a few weeks ago that two years ago had big bluegill. At my most recent visit, I saw a handful of yearling bass swimming about, but not as many as the pond once had; by no means was the pond devoid of bass; and in two years' time, with still having a bass population, the pond has gone from big bluegill to a pond swarmed with runts, badly overpopulated. Giving bluegill a full year in a pond with no predation whatsoever is a horrible idea for anyone that cares anything at all about bluegill size, which the originator of this thread made clear he does.

I respectfully disagree Walt. You need to keep in mind that most of the fisheries recommendations you find assume that the pond owners don't take an active role in fish management. They can give good advice for initial stocking numbers that will create a balanced fishery with little or no managent based on the theory that the forage will be established by the time the predators mature enough to start feeding on that forage. If it were me, I would definitely establish my forage first. If you stock FHM and let them reproduce for a year you will get a huge return on that investment. The following year I would stock 12 to 14 inch bass after the first bluegill spawn. I think you may be surprised just how much a LMB will eat when food is readily available. I don't worry so much about bluegill overpopulation. That is easily remedied with fishing. It's not very difficult to catch and remove a few hundred bluegill in a weekend if you take the time. It is something you will need to stay on top of. Take creel surveys often to determine the health of your bluegill. If they become stunted, keep harvesting. If you want some trophy bluegill, throw the biggest ones (9" or more) back and harvest the 5" to 9". Keep the small ones for the LMB. It just takes a little active participation. I think this method will definitely jump start the LMB. Don't get me started on state fish & game agencies or University programs. I'm not making a blanket statement, but I can't tell you how much bad advice of gotten from the so called experts. I can tell you without reservations that if you are looking for the best recommendations and information from people who really know their stuff, it's right here in this forum.

Walt, first I never advised cougar to wait a year to stock the bass and second, I am well aware of the fecundity of BG and their ability to stunt rather quickly. I've been managing ponds for just a couple years and studied wildlife and fisheries science in college, so I have a slight grasp on the biology of bluegill. Sometimes personal observations are very helpful, but relying on anecdotal observations solely can lead you down the wrong path. Fisheries management is very complex!

There is no clean cut answer, but southern and northern stocking ratios and timings vary. As do the ratio and timing vary for the goal of the pond owner. Also, the size of each species stocked can play a huge role in when they are stocked. Larger bass can be stocked later than smaller bass. The same is true with BG, smaller BG may take a full year before they spawn, so waiting a YEAR may be prudent. That is why it is important to advise not only a stocking rate and timing, but also the size fish to stock. There are many variables...


Personally I think too many BG are stocked in ratio to bass more times than not and BG are given too big a jump start on the bass. Particularly those looking for a balanced pond. Many more northern pond owners look at the advice given to a southern pond owner and think that advice will work for them and it leads to problems.

In the end, the management of a BG/LMB pond is not easy particularly one that is a balance as opposed to growing trophy sunfish or bass.

I believe we are arguing two different points here. I think the point CJ is trying to make is that letting FHM or BG get a few spawns in before predation will allow the forage base to maximum it's effeciency, or in other words get the most bang for your buck. You can grow ten times the number of fish you purchased to feed your predators. Thiswill grow your predators bigger and long-term save the pond owner $ that would of been spent on more forage. Keep in mind this would be a trophy predator system. IIRC in a trophy predator system you want the mean forage base size roughly 2-4" or the perfect meal for a bass.

Walt I think you are looking at the situation from the approach of a balanced fishery with diverse size distribution of each species, with a few trophies from each species. Maybe you would want your average BG a little larger say 4-6". In order to achieve this you would put LMB in sooner to start predation sooner and limit the number of BG in the pond. Which will in turn eliminate competition for resources and increase overall size distribution of the population. At the same time it will take your predators a little more work to find food and growth potential will not be maximized like it would in CJ's "Trophy Bass" model. IMO this situation should be more sustainable long term as it is a more natural environment for the fish.

I do think you both can agree that anyway you slice it FHM will not survive long term in a BG/LMB pond.

There are many management options available to the pondmeister. It is important that we know what our goals are for our fishery from day one as each action we take during our management will have long term effects. Thats why I am so glad I found this website and the magazine, too bad it was after I put it in 25 CC that I really dont want to feed. They are also taking up valuable predator biomass and will eventually have to be fished out (if possible). What a great investment???

BINGO! We have a winner... Most state agencies or universities assume the pond owner/manager will not be putting time in to manage their pond. So perhaps another question that should be asked when a person is looking for advise, is: Are you willing to invest time into the management of your pond? If they aren't stocking reccomendations may be very different!

Yeah that's what I meant above about "IMO this situation should be more sustainable long term as it is a more natural environment for the fish".

I agree with CJB, there is no clear cut answer. It takes active management to reach your goals. Harvesting plays an import part. Walt mention a pond owner who had been using automatic feeders for 4 years and the bluegill were still stunted. The landowner asked people to remove all LMB they caught under 2 lbs. Why would you harvest the bass and not the bluegill? Seems to me someone needed to remove a few hundred bluegill or more. You can't grow trophys without harvesting. You can't have a balanced pond without harvesting for that matter. Harvesting is the best tool we have in managing an established pond. All the examples Walt mentioned didn't include harvesting bluegill. If the bass aren't "making a dent in the bluegill population" I would suggest the pond owner making a dent or even a great big hole if necessary. Isn't fishing the reason most of us got into this in the first place? Go out and catch em. Take an active role in management. I'm sure that stocking predators and forage at the same time or building the forage first and stocking the predators later will both work if MANAGED properly. I'm sure that the are many in this forum who will swear by both methods. Pond Meistering is a full contact sport. You've got to go out and get your hands dirty. Don't sit around and wait for the bass to do your job. Don't let your BG get out of hand. Be active.

Close to what I was saying... FHM, BNM, LCS, BKF and other species of SOLELY forage fish should be given a substantial jump start on the stocking of bass. At least a year... BG, YP and others, that is highly dependable, many times I would say stock them after the bass but in a size too large for the current bass to eat for a balanced fishery.



I agree, FHM don't have a shot in establishing an extended self reproducing population. However, if the correct habitat is there, BNM, LCS and BKF certainly can. However, they need time to build their numbers before the introduction of bass unless you stock extremely large numbers of them which is not possible for the average pondmeister's bank account or ability to catch and prepare large numbers of those species from wild sources. Perhaps the only species I wouldn't put in this category are GSH. With them I would just stock larger adults when I stocked the fingerling bass to reduce the risk of them overpopulating and overly competing with the sunfish.

In a balanced fishery, the stocking of 2"-3" BG in the fall followed by the stocking of 2"-3" LMB in the spring would lead to a healthy balance under most conditions. The idea is that the bass are not big enough to eat the original stocked BG but are big enough to immediately and efficiently prey on their offspring. However, southern states with their longer growing season may require the building of the BG population for a year before the bass are stocked. This is the big difference between northern and southern ponds, the length of the growing season! Even if the goal is a balanced fishery, southern ponds may need this building period. The reason, a longer growing season means bass are feeding at the warm weather higher metabolism rate for more of the year. This means the bass will consume more BG in a southern pond than a northern pond. THIS is the reason that a southern pond may need a building year prior to bass stocking, even if a balanced pond is the goal.



This is where size of fish stocked along with timing can really change the dynamics. Size of fish stocked along with numbers is just as important as the timing of the stocking.



VERY TRUE... We must also remember that even with a well laid out stocking plan, each pond is different and management of ponds is ongoing. This is so we can tweak things to keep them progressing towards our goals.

I often recommend waiting a year to stock bass. Of course, this assumes that you aren't going to stock fingerling bass.

A few basic points:

CAW25: I am not an amateur who comes on here to learn the basics, and then decides to throw around advice. If you take me as that, you are very mistaken. I currently manage several ponds professionally, and I have ten years of experience doing so, so my knowledge is not theory, it's firsthand, proven experience. I don't recommend anything unless I know it works. If you have experience managing ponds professionally that eclipses mine, by all means continue discounting my scientifically-proven, widely-accepted and recommended advice.

Regarding the pretty silly idea that game and fish agencies assume pond owners are not going to take an active role in managing their ponds: maybe your state DNR is that haphazard, but mine certainly isn't. All of TWRA's recommendations - which were one of my first sources of information on managing ponds - are based on pond owners who take a very active, sustained role in the management of their ponds, in everything from pH to fertility to pond construction to regular harvesting. I would go way out on a limb here and suggest that there are many other state game and fish agencies in addition to TN's that are actually staffed by degreed fisheries biologists who have a great deal of both academic and real-world, field experience behind their recommendations, and further that they make said recommendations not as a shoddy compromise from the ideal pond, but rather in an earnest - and very informed - effort to help pond owners achieve the best fishing possible in their ponds. Furthermore, I stated not only that I had never heard a state agency make the recommendation to wait a year from the time of stocking bluegill to the time of stocking bass, but I've never heard a fisheries biologist or professional pond manager make that recommendation either, and so far, since I posted, none on this forum have spoken up and said they would recommend it. That should tell you something.

Lastly, and I would think this would have been the most obvious of all but perhaps it is not, my recommendation was based on actually listening to cougar's specific goals, which obviously none of you have done. He clearly stated very early in this thread, when asked which species was his priority, that he would like to have nice-sized members of both. It's very dubious, and completely unproven scientifically, whether any benefit derives to a pond managed solely for trophy bass when said pond is stocked with bass a year after forage is stocked, for the reasons I already delineated and won't do again; it's clearly and scientifically, empirically demonstrable that waiting a year from the time of stocking bluegill (which are bass forage) to the time of stocking bass, in the South, will yield exactly the opposite results from what cougar is seeking. My observations are not "anecdotal," they are scientifically proven and I only cited specific examples in a (wasted) attempt to educate. The half-acre pond I cited has had a large number of bluegill removed just this year, many of them by me; the pond that I mentioned that used to have big bluegill, has had several bluegill harvested in years past, though when the bluegill were at their biggest the pond had not been fished in some time. Here again, though, having personally corrected several ponds that at some point were overrun with tiny bluegill, I think I'm safe in saying that the other posters to this thread really know not of what they speak. It's not a situation that is remedied overnight, which is why many biologists recommend Rotenone in such a situation. I was merely trying to point out the tremendous stupidity that would inhere in cougar having to face that situation because he got bad advice on the forum he went to seeking expert advice. And it's more than a little frustrating to have significant professional experience, and offer scientifically-proven, sound, widely-recommended advice, and have it discounted by posters who have little to no experience.

Don't take this the wrong way, CJ, as I have nothing against you personally. But two years of experience working with ponds is almost equivalent to none; you haven't had time yet to really see the long-term effects of any management strategy you may have employed to this point. You may have some great ponds; they didn't get that way in two years.

Walt,

Most of us are amateurs, not professionals. Your credentials are undoubtedly impressive.

The point of this forum, however, is for all of us to get together and collaborate. I think your above post, unfortunately, will discourage all of us admitted amateurs from speaking our minds.

You might be spot on with all of your analyses on this forum, but there is nothing wrong with someone else approaching the same problem from a different angle. Disparaging the experiences of others will not help Pond Boss achieve the free flow of ideas. Your opinions are worthy, but they're not the only viable information on this forum.

I never meant to discourage amateurs - far from it. I just haven't seen any of the biologists or other professional pond managers on here have their recommendations discredited as though they knew nothing of what they spoke. It's happened several times to me recently on here, often by one poster, and it gets to be a little frustrating. I'm all for the free exchange of ideas; it just seems to me that someone with very limited experience might take into consideration the greater experience of someone else before poo-pooing his advice to posters.

It's not a different angle to state that what I just recommended doesn't work and is a bad idea. That's discounting not only my advice, but my legitimacy and ability as a pond manager.

I won't pretend to be the most knowledgeable person on here; there are some pretty smart and pretty experienced biologists and pond managers on here, and I learn from them daily. But I have managed to learn a good deal from my years of managing ponds. I don't get anything out of answering a new member's query for help other than the satisfaction of knowing I may have helped someone to have a better pond. If Bob Lusk had the time to answer every single query, there would be no need for the rest of us because it's doubtful any of us would often be able to offer better advice than he could; but that's why he made this forum, so people with lots of experience can help those with less. I don't have a degree in fisheries science, and am already self-conscious about that, as I have two master's degrees in other fields; I found this site only a few months ago, and have enjoyed both learning and being able to educate. But it's more than a little maddening to have to stop myself every time I consider answering a new member's question, and wonder whether my advice is going to be dismissed out-of-hand even if I have firsthand experience with the situation and the person dismissing does not.

You should give your advise freely. As everyone else does without reguard whether or not it is taken & applied. It's the combo of all advise/experience shared that is the value of this forum.
If you get mad when the girl you give flowers to rejects them, you'll stand not a chance. Give it your best shot & let it go.

I guess sarcasm doesn't come through on a computer very well... I've been dealing with ponds for just a hair more than two years.

And Walt, it's nothing personal either... Don't take it that way. I just like you am gaining nothing from this forum. I don't sell fish, I don't sell pond management products and I don't have plans on becoming a fisheries biologist. So I like you give advice based on the 17 years I have managed ponds for friends, family and myself along with the knowledge I gained while studying wildlife and fisheries science in college.

Again, pond management is extremely variable what your experiences may have been can often be very different from what my experiences or another member's experiences are. So we post what WE think would be the best methods to attain results. If they are different from other posters whether they be fisheries pros or amateurs is irrelevant. It is, in the end up to the person seeking advice to sort through the information given and decide how they want to manage their pond.

Lets start with this :

Bob Lusk
Lunker


Welcome to the Pond Boss Forum. This is the place for sharing information about the enjoyment of private ponds in a fun, family like atmosphere.

All posts and discussions should be done as if you were talking to family or friends. Any post that appears to the management to be not in keeping with its standards will be be deleted and the maker banned from the Forum. This includes any post that could be seen as mean spirited or offensive and/or directed toward any individual(s) or any post with dirty words, or containing comments of a sexual, religious, racial or political nature or not deemed to be in "good taste". The use of any personal contact information such as E-mail address(s) or use of Private Messages must follow the same standards.

If you wouldn't say it to your Mother, don't say it to us.





Next some things to keep in mind.

No one has all the answers.

Every pond is different.

State level Mgt agencies provide info on the beginners level as that is their charge because most ponds are not managed by biologists but by people who need to keep it simple. They generally do not give cutting advice because it carries to much risk for the average pond owner. Many of their mgt books are written on tried and true 1940s basic mgt principals - which were written for food production not recreation as the primary goal.

If you will notice the real experts on here rarely say things like "do only this , this and that" because they know what I said first above - that there are few absolutes in pond mgt



Surveys of state level stocking reccommendetations clearly show great differences and variety but each is basic. They are vastly different on some subjects.

Every one in this discussion has some good points and some not so correct. That is ok so long as you state your point and don't direct comments to other individuals. It is not a good idea to tell someone they are wrong or crazy. Thank each of you for sharing time and effort here. I encourage everyone to keep an open mind and strive to learn as much as you can.

Thank you Eric, if my posts came off as personal attacks they weren't intended that way. Sometimes the exchange of ideas, even among friends can be a bit boisterous. I am sure Walt would say the same thing.

CJ you and Walt are both valued members of this Forum. You both have a wealth of good info to share and help to give others. Differences of opinion are ok as they cause all of us to challenge our on beliefs and search for answers - that is how one grows. It is good for readers to see several opinions and then make up their on mind or seek more help.

Keep Bob's rules in mind when posting . Thank you guys for your participation.

Ouch! Where do I begin? Who discounted out of hand everything you said? There's more than one way to skin a cat. I happen to prefer to build my forage first and stock the predators later but both methods will work (I thought I mentioned that.) My main point, which I mentioned several times, is management. I don't care which method you choose it still takes management. Be active.

As far as my "pretty silly idea that fish and game agencies assume pond owners won't take an active role in fish management" I refer you to the State of Ohio pond management guide. They basically tell you to stock bluegill and bass in the typical numbers per acre .......and then don't touch it for at least 4 years so as not to offset the balance. I guess you could call that passive management. They also so you can add CC at rates of 100 per acre as a "bonus" fish since they won't compete with the LMB and bluegill. I guess they eat water. The fish farm I bought my fish from (which is ran buy a degreed fisheries biologist) insisted on stocking hybrid bluegills only so I don't overpopulate. I sincerely thank him and his pet green sunfish. A local DNR guy told me not to worry about Rusty crayfish. It seems they "are just better at being a crawdad than other types". His exact words. Sure the bass eat them as well as they do other types. He forget to mention that they will eat every plant in your pond. If I could train them to eat my lawn I would be OK with it. I guess my point is that bad information comes from many sources, including those with nice peices of paper hanging on their walls, which I have (big deal).

Republican or democrat, Catholic or Protestant, stocking predators initially or stocking after the forage is established, I'm sure both sides have more common ground than disagreements. Isn't discussions like this what this forum is about? No need to get personal. Nobody is questioning your knowledge or experience. If anyone was "dismissing out of hand" what was being said....Que the disclaimer EWEST.....look in the mirror.