Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose HBG degradaton

Welcome back to Pond Boss Rick. Interesting thread - I hadn't read it before or don't recall reading it (which could mean I read it yesterday afternoon and simply forgot).

Glad you're back posting with us.

I'm thinking winterkill. I remember several small lakes (ponds, really) on the Canadian shield having only minnows in them, because any larger fish (YP, WE, NP) that get introduced into them routinely die from low oxygen under the ice. The small minnows have a lower oxygen demand and survive in breeding numbers.

Any future large fish stocking could be kept alive through some snow removal or enough aeration to keep a small area ice free.

Theo,
Well.....we’re definitely within the “shield” area. Whether you call it Canadian or Precambrian, I guess depends on where you live. A cousin of mine, now a retired DNR officer in Ohio, calls it a Swale. The locals in the U.P. refer to it as a Bayou. To me it’s a pond.

I think I’m going the same direction as you as far as the cause of the die off. I am, however, having some trouble on a couple points. Would all of the original stocking die off just due to larger body mass, or would some survive? Even one or two? Also, what about the last couple batches that were spawned last year that, by ice over, would have been no larger than the minnows that survived. Our original stocking was with fish the size of a quarter and was done in early August. The minnows average 1 1/2" to 2". Some get up to 4". The winter kill theory is the best we have, but all the pieces don’t fit.

To add to my last post there are cormorants hanging around, a pair of Bald Eagles nesting 100 feet from the pond, and a new fact I just found out. A neighbor on one side whose property is slightly overlapped by our pond could possibly have put something in the water to kill a Beaver he’s sure we have. We are just as sure we don’t have a Beaver. The first two would not get all the HBG’s, and the last would get everything.

rick

What all will die in a Winterkill depends on how bad the low O2 gets. The biggest fish are the most susceptible. Like you pointed out, we don't have any way of knowing exactly what happened.

Rick,
My pond had severe winterkill this year, all my rainbows 18" ,and brook trout 14" died, but the golden shiners, and pumpkinseeds did ok. Pumpkinseeds are suppose to be cold tolerant, but i wonder if HBG can take low DO, and cold temps.

Theo and AP,
Thanks for the input. This pretty much lines up with my thoughts even though I didn't want to think it.

Guess that's why this pond has only had minnows in the 40 years I've known it. No sense trying to re-stock. They'll just continue to be wiped out every couple years.

IMO this pond is not worth the trouble or cost to set up aeration. It is pretty much unattended from October through April. Is there a species that can survive better in low temps and low DO?

rick

Perhaps one of our Northern tier PMs or Pros would know if any fish worth catching might survive Winters in the pond consistently.

If you were in NY on Lake Ontario - Bullhead would make it if they aren't already there. I doubt your situation is much different then some that I'm familiar with.

The "ponds" like you describe that do "OK" on lake ontario - have :

1. an inlet & a "cut"
2. or at least a "cut" in the dune - to the main lake.

Obviously in either situation your local fish run the risk of escaping - but at the same time you get a pretty neat natural fishery with the "cut". its also their way in and out in the event of low oxygen.

On of my favorite spots (Sterling Creek Pond at Fair Haven NY) has Crappie, Northern Pike, Bowfin, LMB and even EEL during the summer months - and Rainbow trout, Brown trout and King Salmon in the fall.


F-H

Contrary to some of the literature cited here, we've been using male greens/female BG to make our hybrids, and never seen any evidence of reproduction, despite the fact that this cross is supposed to result in a much higher incidence of female offspring, than the reciprocal cross.

I know that the hybrids are claimed to have much lower fecudnity, and MAYBE all the resultant fry are eaten before we see them, but we've NEVER seen any.

JHM are you using hybrids to try and make more hybrids ?

Here is some info. There is more info as well some consistent some not.


HYBRIDIZATION OF FISHES IN NORTH AMERICA
(FAMILY CENTRARCHIDAE)
by

W.F. CHILDERS
Illinois Natural History Survey
Urbana, Illinois
U.S.A.


4.1 Sex Ratios of F1 hybrids
Sexually mature F1 hybrids were collected from each population and sexed. Of the 10 kinds of viable F1 hybrids, seven were predominately males (RB, BR, and BG were 97 percent males; WG were 84 percent males; and RG, GB, and BW were approximately 70 percent males), two were approximately 50 percent males (GR and RW), and one was predominately female (GW was 16 percent males). Ricker (1948) determined the sex of 428 BR F1 hybrids in Indiana and found them to be 97.7 percent males.

In this paper R refers to red-ear sunfish, B to bluegill, G to green sunfish, and W to warmouth. Matings between individuals of different species are designated to P1 crosses and the resultant hybrids are designated as F1 hybrids. F2 hybrids are those produced by mating an F1 male with an F1 female. The P1 cross of a male bluegill with a female green sunfish is designated B × G and the resultant hybrids are designated BG F1 hybrids; GB F1 designates the reciprocal hybrids.



4.2 Reproductive success of hybrids
The reproductive success of each of the 10 kinds of viable F1 hybrids was investigated in one or more ponds. The occurrence and abundance of F2 hybrids were determined by seining, trapping, shocking, poisoning or draining the ponds after the F1 hybrids were one or more years of age. RB, BR, and BG failed to produce abundant F2 generations when in ponds which contained no other species of fishes. In contrast to these results, BR F1 hybrids produced abundant F2 generations in two ponds in Indiana (Ricker 1948). The other seven kinds of F1 hybrids produced abundant F2 populations when stocked in ponds containing no other fishes. Three of the seven kinds of F1 hybrids which produced large F2 populations when stocked in ponds containing no other fishes were also stocked in ponds with largemouth bass. RG F1 hybrids and GB F1 hybrids, when stocked with largemouth bass, produced only a few F2 hybrids. No F2 hybrids were found in the pond stocked with BW F1 hybrids and largemouth bass. WG F2 hybrids and GW F2 hybrids were stocked in ponds containing no other fishes. Both of these F2 hybrids produced large F3 populations.

No, we start a new batch every year, using male greens and female BG.

We usually keep their progeny up to 2 1/2 years, and have never seen fry or fingerlings in any of the ponds where they (F1s) are held for growout (each year class is held in a separate pond). They certainly DO makes nests, etc, but have never seen offspring.

Next time I move some, I'll sacrifice a few and sex them.