Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Small Mouth Bass in Texas

I think even in a 100 acre lake, the LMB will dominate the SMB and there will be little to no recruitment of SMB particularly in a Texas environment. Even lakes of 200, 1000 or more acres, LMB seem to dominate the fishery most of the time. Every now and again you do find a lake where the smallie dominates though, but they always seem to be fed by a creek that has a healthy smallie population to begin with, the water stays cooler and there is a cobble/bedrock bottom to much of the lake.

Thats very true. Here in Washington there are two lakes about 1/8 of a mile apart. One is creek fed and super deep with strong runs of cutthroat trout and a HUGE perch population and you can get some nice smallies out of there, but oddly enough you'd be hard pressed to catch a largemouth. The other lake which is mainly spring fed there are 8+lb bass in there and a very limited smallmouth population.

If my wife and I are able to buy this particular piece of property with the spring fed creek, I am really considering SMB only now. The more I think about it the more I like it. Like RB said I have several places to catch trophy LMB.

I strongly believe RB Blackshear's good review of the SMB article in PBoss magazine, probably because I researched and wrote the article. The SMB-LMB combination results in a direct competition between the two fish with LMB winning esp in small waters. The smaller the water the more LMB tend to win the game. In smaller waters there are not enough niches for the SMB to thrive thus the LMB eventually crowd out the smallies esp regarding natural recruitment. When the two are combined and when more LMB are removed or thinned, as mentioned above in the quote by Jeff Splike, the better the SMB thrive.

I challange anyone to put smallies in a small pond by themselves with a decent forage fish community and watch what happens. Smallie success is not so much about warm or cool temperatures as it is about compeyition from other fish. I've stocked smallies with out LMB numerous times with great success. The resulting size of the smallies will be dependant on the quality of the forage food base and the number of SMB competiting.

As I often suggest start with the smallies and when they don't live up to your expectations, add the LMB and they will give you a different type of bass pond. You will learn from the experiences.

How is this for info ? FYI 37C = 98.6F.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=91120&fpart=1



Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 109:617-625, 1980
Effects of Elevated Temperature on Growth and
Survival of Smallmouth Bass
WILLIAM B. WRENN


Considering that the minimum temperature
was 35 C on 9 days, I concluded that the
lethal limit was greater than 35 C and that it
was probably as high as 37 C. Other studies
support the second conclusions L.arimore and Duever
(1968) reported an upper lethal temperature
of 38 C for smallmouth bass fry, and, basing
their results on laboratory temperature-avoidance experiments and field observations S, tauffer
et al. reported that smallmouth bass could
tolerate 35 C. An upper incipient lethal temperature f
or smallmouth bass, as classically de -
fined (see Brungs and Jones 1977), was not
found in the literature The lethal temperature
of 35 C reported by Cherry et al. (1977) was
derived on the basis of a single death during a
7-day exposure period. This value (35 C) was
used as a reference level In the present study
because it was the highest lethal temperature
reported for juvenile or adult smallmouth bass.....
As a result of the growth and survival of
smallmouth bass in the present study , we found
that the temperature tolerance of this species
is quite broad, which is typical of a warmwater
species. According to the proposed temperature
classification for freshwater fish by Hokanson(
1977), smallmouth bass more closely fits
the category of a temperature theme: species
(including largemouth bass and carp, Cyprinus
carpio) that have an ultimate incipient lethal


The juvenile category

is qualified at this point because the fish were

age 0 at the start of the study, yet unexpectedly

reproduced within the following year. The

study was conducted in 12 temperature- controlled

outdoor channels located on the Tennessee

River in Alabama which is the southern

limit of the native range for smallmouth bass.



Bill Noted
Bill Cody
Lunker


Registered: April 18, 2002
Posts: 3924
Loc: Malinta OH
(64.31.90.50) Readers, keep in mind that the data Ewest provided above (July 11th post) are from laboratory stuides and they did not involve: 1. hooking from angling, 2. bleeding from angling, and 3. stressful excercise to exhaustion causing intense lactic acid buildup in mussle tissue. I think those factors will significantly lower the upper lethal temparature limit for SMB.
_________________________


Smallmouth Bass Reproduction in Elevated Temperature Regimes at the Species' Native Southern Limit
WILLIAM B. WRENN

Tennessee Valley Authority, Division of Air and Water Resources, Knoxville, Tennessee

Abstract.—The effects of elevated temperatures on reproduction of smallmouth bass Micropterus dolomieui were evaluated in large outdoor channels (112 m long; 0.05 hectare) on the Tennessee River in Alabama, the southern limit of the species' native range. Replicated treatments were the ambient temperature of the Tennessee River and 3, 6, and 9 C above ambient (December 1978-October 1979). Peak egg deposition was advanced about 8 days per 3 C increase over ambient but occurred at temperatures (18-22 C) within the normal range reported for spawning by this species (15-26 C). Peak spawning time ranged from March 22 in the +9 C treatment to April 16 in the ambient regime. Duration of spawning periods (11 to 19 days) in the four temperature treatments was similar to those reported for natural populations. Survival rates from egg deposition to emergence from the nest were about 90% in all treatments. A maximum weekly average temperature of 26 C during the spawning season will allow survival of smallmouth bass eggs and larvae. This study indicated that the southern limit of the original range of smallmouth bass was not determined by the influence of temperature on reproduction and that above-normal temperatures would not affect reproduction and recruitment to the extent that low temperatures affect northernmost populations.

Received April 9, 1983 Accepted March 19, 1984

DOI: 10.1577/1548-8659(1984)113<295:SBRIET>2.0.CO;2
Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 1984;113:295–303

Bill,

I came up with another plan. Tell me what you think.

Stock RES,FH and GSH this Spring.
Stock SMB this fall or Spring 2010.
Stock bluegill Fall 2010.
Stock 15 adult feed trained LMB males Fall 2011 or whenever the SMB are big enough to not get eaten.

Would that many LMB be able to control the BG?

Why male LMB rather than female ?

When I have talked to Todd he said using males won't effect future stocking decisions because they won't get as big as females.

Chris - Try it. Learn from what happens.
I'm not sure about how much assistance 15 male or female LMB will have in helping the SMB in controlling BG. There are a whole lot of "ifs", "buts", and "it all depends" with this plan. There are way too many variables that can occur to cause things to work as planned or not work as planned. One of the big variables is as the LMB grow they will tend to eat larger and larger prey (BG?). Could be pro could be con. Another big variable with the LMB is they may mostly target other prey (small SMB, lg GSH) rather than the BG you want them to eat. LMB won't read the research papers as to what they are supposed to eat.

Many pondowners tend to forget that the pond is a VERY, VERY dynamic ecosystem. That is a hard concept for many to grasp the full concept of. The more one learns about it the more complex it becomes. Even the fishery does not stay the same as when it was stocked. Add to it the continual changes in water quality, plant community, plankton community, the invertebrate community, and even subtile changes in the pond basin all contribute to and complicate the entire process. Things are always being added and substracted from the ecosystem (pond) to constantly change how things inter-react. Everything in the pond is always in a state of flux or change. Things can relatively quickly go from fairly well balanced to somewhat out of balance with just one successful or unsuccessful spawn or a plant bloom. The ability of predators being able to find prey can fairly quickly change the balance. Even water clarity often changes noticably from week to week, month to month and can affect how well fish numbers esp forage species survive. What is "balance" anyway? Balance is definately not a steady state. Balance is a relative term.

Your latest stocking plan (May 02) involves six species - FH, GSH, RES, BG, SMB, LMB(sexed). It has been often noted here and in the literature that the more species that are involved in a fishery the more complicated it becomes. This is due primarily to the specific dynamics and ethology(behavior in habitat) of each species when placed into an eco-system (here a pond). They all inter-react and are acted upon. The more species you have inter reacting the more complicated it becomes especially in terms of balance. IMO the easiest fishery to manage is one using a single species. The more species that are then added the more difficult it becomes in regards to keeping all species present in a state or conditon of balance or keeping them thriving. There are various definitions for thriving. I won't cover them here. Managing a pond does in many cases involve hands on managing to a greater or lesser extent. Knowing what to manage is truly the difficult task.

So after all that verbal throat clearing, It is a crap shoot as to how well your newest plan would do in your 0.4 ac pond. I think you may be trying to crowd too many species in to a too small of a pond for all to be a good success. They may survive, but not to the best of their potential. But for some people that degree of success is very acceptable. Anything you try will be a learning experience for you and maybe us. You are talking about only 0.4 acre of water. Not a major job (at least compared to 1-3 acres) in renovating and starting over.

I am sure that your latest stocking plan could work. Most any stocking plan or combination can work given the right amount of effort from the manager regarding additions and removals of the standing stock (fish). The main differences are in the amount of effort involved to manage and adjust the balance that developes.

Thanks Bill. Right now I have RES and 100 male BG coming.

Good stuff Bill and Chris. Discussions like this really help amatures like me.

When are you going to write a book Bill Cody?!?

Why do I feel like Jethro with a 6th grade education? I am amazed at the knowledge around here. I have learned more in the few weeks I have been on here than I did my entire life prior. You guys are good!!!

Yes, Brandon, this is an awesome place. And then you have jokers like me who have an occassional nugget of wisdom, but still feel the need to displace it with about 1000 useless posts.

Chris, Are fish coming from Todd Overton?. 100 male BG is a lot of male BG to sort and do it with 100% accuracy. Please do a couple things for us. 1. Try to be present when BG are stocked. 2. Get a photo of some of the fish (BG). 3. Measure what you think is the smallest BG and get a good 50% front end photo of it. 4. Cross your fingers the fish sorter was accurate. 5. Report back regarding any YOY you see of BG. Thanks.
I think the 100 male BG is a real good way to start out your pond. I think you will be happy with the results. Adding a few female BG later will quickly change the dynamics of the pond.

Yes I am getting them from Todd. Will do on the rest of the stuff.

I think Todd is capable of providing 100 male BG with good accuracy. I am interested in seeing what his smallest males look like, thus the photo request. In a few years if you think you need more forage fish, you will hopefully be able to get some lake chubsuckers from Todd. Chubsuckers and SMB are a very good combination. Your SMB should do real well. I am really interested in your 0.4 ac pond project. Practical fishery science in action.

If the CNBG aren't milting, I won't count them.

What I can't guarantee is what might be entering Steelman's pond from upstream/downstream......what he might receive from nature's contributing forces....

Will report positive chubsucker results asap.

I am impatiently waiting for the results!

Ok I heard something new the other day that has me wondering. My pond is in Livingston, TX approx 3 miles from the big lake. Many WT on the lake. I do not live on the property so the lead in the head method of controlling WT will only apply on weekends.
I am ready to add FH, BG, and had planned to add the F1's this fall. My fish guy recomended that I wait till spring to add the LMB or if I did stock this fall use larger fish to discourage the WT buffet. Said that the WT are not around during the spring as with the fall.......Is this BS?

Not sure about TX but in VA the WT are more of a problem in the spring than the fall...

WT? What fish is that?

Water Turkey AKA cormorant AKA pond destroyers

AKA DOA.