Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Moving away from SMB/YP pond only

Good morning and long time no see to many of my friends out here. I am in the middle of taking my YP/SMB pond and adding more diversity. I am down to about 10 Mid sized SMB (14-18") and about ( major guess here ) 50 or so YP in the 3 inches to 16 inch range. I am still not getting any feralized YP eggs. I have added more males and the pond has tons of structure and weeds for the YP to do their thing. The SMB have done a great job of bedding down each year and producing young that promptly get eaten. he FHM are not there anymore as I lost them to the big guysd one or wo years ago in he big dry spell.


Thus to make up for the missing FHM I am going to introduct some BG ino the pond as well as some Rock Bass. I am hoping that they will establish a good forage base that will take up where the FHM left off. I add in Crayfish each year and they seemto hold their own longer and beter than the FHM but never see many around on the shore line between the fish and the racoons.

I just thought I would give a long overdue update.

Good to see a report ! How do you have 3 inch YP if there was no reproduction ? Are you having 0 SMB recruitment to adults? What about GShiners or another (minnow type)?

HeY Eric, Nice to hear from you again!!

I have added a few smaller YP last fall and this spring from other sources. Thus I know a few 3 inchers, Everything I have pulled out on my own is between 12 and 16" Some real big lunkers over the past 6 years!!

The SMB I saw one or two last year that made it to about a 4 inch size but nothing lately. I think because of the amount of SMB and YP that are larger I have lost most of the new YOY type fish.

I have ried Goldens in the past and they tend not to handle the thermal shock or new conditions very well when adding themin. I let them adapt to the temp while in their bags/containers but still seem to lose them soon after. I did see one Golden about 1 or 2 years ago that got to be about 10" bu have not seen him lately.

Rock bass for forage? They are another predator aren't they? An even bigger mouth than a Green Sunfish. I've caught them on minnows so...

16 inch perch? Pictures?!

I have would love to have a Tiger Team with Bill Cody and Mark Cornwell figure out why your YP have never reproduced, Eric.

I can get a few pics next time I pull out the YP. Some real monsters been sitting on the bottom. Not fat but long and big hump back. My Bull frogs have gotten giant as well. I have never seen frogs as big as they are this spring. I have many that are about 10 inches without outstretched legs. I will try and grab a few pics of those as well. I think they have all done well because I have done very little fishing on the pond and have been feeding them like mad!!

I put one or two 4 inch Rock bass in this spring because my 5 yr old caught them in a creek and wanted them to make their home in our pond. I don't think they lasted long once they went in but I wont tell him that!!!

As for Green Sunfish do they even qualify as a fish?

Hey Eric,

Ever considered adding white suckers for forage? I would think they would do well in your pond.

Theo I would welcome that as well. I think if I remember back a year or so that Cecil suggested and I believehad the right idea that my SMB may have gotten to the slower growing male YP and as such took out a vast majority of the males and left the larger females. That is in effect why I have been adding some new Male YP from other locations when I get a chance to see if I can do something to help the situation along.

White suckers??? The creek suckers? I havent thought about them as an addition. May have to look them up.

Interestingly enough my 15 yr old who sarted the pond with me has no interest in the pond anymore and the 5 yr old can't get enough of it. The one thing he is always upset about is that for the most part the YP and SMB are not fish you see at the surface all that much. Thus that is also why I was considering some sunfish to add to his excitement as well as being the snacks for the real fish!!!

Eric,
Thanks for a pond status update. As I recall (my mind is often fuzzy) your pond is sort of small (<1/3ac) isn't it. What is the pond size?

With little natural recruitment, could it be due to too few or sparse natural refugia (weed beds) or the pond is at, near or ABOVE carrying capacity and recruitment is suppessed or limited due to habitat and fish biomass constraints?. First thing, I look at when recruitment is poor is proper habitat, 2nd, an appropriate food supply for young hatchlings, 3rd maybe poor spawn success, 4th too many predators with too little food. Maybe you are expecting too much from a small pond?

For at least now I would hold off on adding R.bass primarily for reason what Cecil mentioned. For adding new types of fish remember to remove an equivalent existing number of fish for each new import. As for the BG at least for first stockings why not try for all males. If you make a mistake in selecting all males then reproduction will occur which is what you are now already planning to happen. This brings me to the next point.

Do you have a dock? If so consider building a small fish cage or two; maybe each with a different mesh size (1/4"&1/2" or 1/2"&3/4"). First retry some g.shiners in a cage to get them established and used to eating pellets. Release survivors after a couple months. Do the same with the BG or male BG. Get them to a size you can separate then release. This way survival is more reliable and they will be pellet trained so competition with other resident fish is reduced somewhat.

Also if you have snails in the pond consider pumpkinseed sunfish?. I plan to get some from north west NY this spring (www.smithcreekfishfarm.com). I see they have g.shiners. Your main problem with GS was possibly a transportation problem (or they were too small?); too many fish in too little water (packaging) in too warm of conditions that involved too much stress during hauling?. Retry some in a cage and get them to a larger size before release; even if it first takes a yr or 2 in a cage. A few GS and some BG are compatable in a cage together.

IMO of suckers for a pond. 1. if it is suckers you want be sure you get suckers and not creek chubs or some other chub. However neither will spawn in a pond at least not a "normal" pond. Hatcheries that sell suckers do not get them from eggs or fry raised naturally or brooded in a pond. Eggs are stripped, fertilized and hatched in jars similar to walleye. Pond hatching of suckers, at least to my knowledge does not work, or else hatcheries that need suckers would do it. No one sells or raises chubs for for bait or other purposes the same reason.

YP recruitment, Could be as Cecil mentioned, the larger smallies are reducing a majority of the male YP and not enough eggs are getting fertilized. A lot of nuances possible here. Nuance is my new buzz word from B.Lusk - Nuance: a slight feeling, tone, variation, feature or factor that is not obvious and contributes or is an influence. Another cause could be that plankton is not adequate enough for hatchling development or hatchlings, esp slower growing males, are getting consumed before they reach 6". IMO One of your problems is you have too many big bass considering the pond size, and forage species base, i.e too many larger bass are wacking all the small YP. ONe approach is to change the predator factor or change the forage base and things you are considering at least with adding BG or r.bass. Several other features in the system can also be tweeked. Reduce number of larger bass and more YP will survive. Consider that each bass eats about 3-6 lbs of forage a year that is a sizable number of small YP to be loosing from a pretty small pond. For example: for 2.5"-3" YP there are abt 125 per lb. 3-6 lb /bass is around 175-750 YP /bass/yr times maybe 12-16 smb 9"-16" equals 4500-6000 YP per yr. It is no wonder you have a shortage of small YP. Granted the smb eat other things than YP but I think you get the idea.
On a lighter note you mentioned "my 15 yr old who sarted the pond with me has no interest in the pond anymore". Ya his hormones have probably diverted his attention to other forms of local "wildlife" - the girls.

Bill, Your memory serves you better than mine does. He pond is between 1/10 and 1/4 acre. I have tons of plants/weedbeds and structure around the edges now such that the YP and minnows have places to hide and spawn. We did have a long dry spell about 2 years ago that I lost about 4 ft of the pond and most of the FHM and plants around the edges. It is fine now. As for the YP spawning I have tons of ribbons around but none fertilized. All just sit in he weeds and sticks/structure and rot.

As for the fish cage. I made one last year and tried it with FHM but they found ways out so GS might be a good choice to try again. As for the GS I get them from a place less than ).5 miles from my house so I dont think its anything with a transportation problem. It could be an issue with size and stress but not with transportation.

One thing I did this past season is add in a new water source to the pond from the road culvert - two 6 inch lines both running about 150 feet to siltation pond and from there through riprap into the full pond. I started off by putting some FHM in the siltation pond to see if I can get some going in there and then move some out as they start to reproduce.

Eric, I suspect your 15 year old will come back to ponds/fishing at some point in the future.

I was away from fishing for better than 30 years with the exception of one vacation, before I got rehooked when I built my first pond.

I am sure he will get back into it someday. He stil loves fishing but only in a lake that he and my late father used to fish in together

Use your cage this year for some GS and BG. See what happens. Maybe just leave shiners in long enough to see if they live and becomed trained to pellets. Check with the hatchery to see if shiners are raised there of imported. If raised there ask if you could get some of the larger breeders. Or find out when delivery arrives and get some really fresh ones.

It sounds like you have ample shoreline shallow depth (0-2ft) vegetation but how about submerged plants that form deeper under water weed beds? What are the deep dwelling species?

Eric,

It's too bad I'd have to go to the expense and test and sacrifice 60 yellow perch to give you some but I have a cage full of male perch.

From what I have read numerous male perch follow around the females at spawning time and my past perch producer suggested a male to female ratio in ponds of 15:1 for good fertilization.

Would Talapia be a better test since the "all male BG" wont reproduce? They would die off in the fall so it would be easy to get rid of them if the experiment didn't work out.

Bill, I will try the cage to see what pans out with the GS. As for shore weedbeds I am fine in the 0-3 ft range. Then my pnd drops off rapidly to 12 - 15 ft, thus no deep weedbeds, just structure that I have added in there.

Cecil, it is a shame. I think its crazy what they have put in place to ensure healthy fish!! I have been trying to get to the male to female ration you have suggested. I can tell you that I see about 30 ribbons of eggs out there and when I put the YP in there were only about 60 all together if I am remembering correctly. I have added some smaller ones over time to help the male to female ratio but I think you were dead on as to what happened to the smaller males and the larger SMB. As for the YP that are there, I have never seen such large females!!!

Bender, I don't think my water is warm enough to get Talapia for any length of time to get any growth out of them. Have you done this in your climate? I also do not have a source that is close enough to supply them.

I have a pond similar to yours - I based my stocking off your threads - 1/10 acre, SMB, YP, GS,FH. I have not seen YP ribbons on the shallow structure, but I have seen schools of yoy swimming around. I think they are using two big pine trees that I sunk in the deepest part of the pond ~25'.

I have not tried Tilapia yet, but if I can find a supplier I will try them this year. Check out the Stocking Tilapia - please weigh in thread. Sounds like even with a short growing season there is chance at a couple good spawns. They grow rapidly and spawn at ~4" -See Page 4 of thread.

Not sure where you would get them in NY, I am still looking for a place in MI.

Eric, have you checked you local bait shop for large GS, some of our bait shops around here do sell them by the dozen.

Shorty, Thanks I have checked the local bait shops and I have gottensome form them and they are typically the ones that don't make it. I am now at thepoint of capturing them wild from a bay about .5 miles form my house on Lake Ontario. During this time of year I can pick up some really nice ones in my minnow traps and nets.

Bender, I am looking to see if I can find any that will deliver to the area but nothing yet.

Eric, what species of fish are you trying to catch in your minnow traps and nets? Be sure you identify the species correctly. There are several species of shiner found in the Great Lakes, some more suited to pond life than others.

Golden Shiner


Spotfin Shiner


Spottail Shiner


Emerald Shiner


The golden and spotfin shiners are the better two species for pond life. The spottail and emerald shiners will survive in ponds, but may have a hard time reproducing.

Tilapia are sold by http://www.cobleskill.edu/academics/agnrschool/fisheries/fishaqua.asp Not too far from you...

Hey Eric.I have a 1/2 acre pond about 10 feet deep in upstate NY.
After my rainbows died of old age a couple of years ago I introduced 2 pairs of yp .The next spring I was infested with perch fry(looked like moving clouds in the water).I don't have much in the way of cover or structure,but they still managed to reproduce.The pond is way to small to support much more than a few dozen adults so I tossed in a hand full of mature Large mouths.They thinned them out pretty well(along with my enormous frog population).This worked out real well till this winter when my standpipe blew out.If I can't fix the leak I will try and catch the survivors and transfer them to my settling pond while I drain the remaining water and repair it.The bass make for exciting catch and release fishing for the kids in the summer and I can satisfy my ice fishing habit in the winter with a few perch fillets.

Here is the link for Fish Farms that are registered with American Tilapia Association. Fingerlakes and Laughing duck are listed as New York Tilapia Farms.

CJBS2003's spot looks pretty good too. The experts will need to give the numbers but I wouldn't think it would take too many 6-8" Tilapia to accomplish your goal.

Laughing Duck is closed, and I think Fingerlakes in a wholesale seller only. Might not sell to the individual pondmeister...

Guys, for Tilapia in NY call Morrisville State College, Aquaculture center 315-684-6423, I think the guy in charge is named Ryan, they use to have them.