Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Renovating a Pond or Lake? Old Pond, Level has fallen 4-5 feet

Hi, new poster here. I live in Hampton Cove, Alabama (Huntsville). I built a home in this subdivision 4-5 years ago, next to a beautiful old farm pond. According to life long residents, its been here for over 50-60 years. I can provide google maps (3202 dry stone circle, owens crossroads alabama).

When we moved here, it was filled to capacity. There was this thick wirey, tall grass all around the edge (gone now). A road near the edge suffered serious potholes so the pond was drained a bit for road repair. Then, they dug up the road and installed "bib" liner, then rebuilt the road. After they filled the drainage ditch, the pond never refilled. It was always thought to be a spring fed pond (it is not a collection pond, higher than surrounding land). We have been in a 3 year drought but have had lots of rain lately. Yet the pond continues to drop to lower levels.

The owners association thought the bib liner somehow created an unintended drainage path. I kind of agree. The owners association brought in an expert who said it was the drought. Its probably a mix of both issues. They have voted to do nothing. (I'm running for the board next year). The collection ponds around the area do well.

One final thing, and I doubt this seriously, but my brother in law (avid outdoorsman) thinks river rats are part of the problem (big holes at the edge of the water). Can river rats burrow so deeply as to keep a pond from refilling?

What do I do about this?

Mike

Absolutely. Get a gun.

Seriously? Got plenty of guns. Not sure the city would appreciate me doing this though.

Can someone point me to stories & facts about this issue?

Any members here from Huntsville, AL (or nearby)?

Mike

Think about it. You build and pack sandy loam to hold water and the rodents poke holes in it. Of course they can cause leaks.

I and nobody I know built this pond. It's way old. Who even knows what technology was used originally to build it (estimate 50 years old, perhaps older). The pond was incredibly healthy before the city lowered it for road repair. There were no rodents along the edge when it was full (that I was aware of). After it lowered (and stayed low) is when the muskrats showed up. Seems first I have to kill the rats. Rat poison work on these? (I assume so, kills anything).

Once they are gone, then what?

Here is the problem. I need advice... facts, something I can take before the home owners association to get things moving. Getting a gun and so on will not move them (ok, it might, but I don't wann spend time in the lockup either ). If there is an expert (here) who lives within 50 miles or so, please contact me.

Mike

SlackKeyMike
Welcome, Hope you will get some info that will help.

Rodents, can sure be the problem, Good news you will be able to see the problem. If their holes are draining the water you will be able to see it somewhere on the down hill side.


I should know this but help me out a little, What did the road crew install? What is "bib" liner?

Otto

Well, I can find nothing yet on the Internet about "bib liner". Its the term the road construction foreman used when describing what he was doing.



This picture was taken well before my house was built. Still looking for an update. At the bottom of the pond near my house, there is a fully exposed finger peninsula. Thats where the rat holes are. The pond is nothing more than marsh land now. The drainage ditch has a large diameter pipe feeding it. THis is where I thing the rat holes are draining to.

At the top near the road, there is probably a road drainage pipe that water is escaping to because of the bib liner (think of it as a pool liner). Installing the liner probably created a pathway to the road drainage system.

Mike

One more thing. Note the unfinished road to the right of the pond. It was considered "low land" that was not permissible for building. It was after the pond lowered that permission was granted to build on it. I suspected at the time a linkage, but who knows.

Mike

SKM,
In my area, I can check on the internet for DNR owned wells to monitor the water level. This may allow you to atleast see what the water table is doing, if you can find a well near the pond that is in the same aquifier (provided there is not any containment layers affecting the water levels).

Well, I could find nothing on well levels.

The rat holes apeared after the pond was mostly empty. So they are essentially at the bottom of the pond.

Wish there was a way to test for leaking.

What is required to repair these? Heavy equipment? Just a shovel?

Mike

I realize that most here believe the question has been answered, and I appreciate it!

I need to know of any test that I can do to prove water is making it from the rat holes to the two drainage ditches (bottom of picture). Both have drain pipes emptying in to them. Is there some safe chemical tracer or dye that I can pour near the rat holes, and a detecion test I can use at the drain pipes?

Mike

Food coloring?

How about this....
http://www.brightdyes.com/

google "tracer dye"

Thanks...gonna try some of that yellow green from Kingscote Chemicals.

Mike

OK...a couple more thoughts and questions.
You said that you thought the rodents (river rats...are these the same as muskrats?) showed up after the water lowered. As I understand it, muskrats create their dens so the entrance is just below the water surface. This, combined with the thick, tall, wirey grass could have made you unaware of their presence all along. They might have already been there before all this started.
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...after they filled the drainage ditch. Not sure what you describe here. How did they fill it? Is it a drainage ditch (which should be empty during drought) or is it an impoundment? The aerial seems to show it holding water like a small pond. Are we suspecting that the pond is seeping into this drainage ditch? If yes, and there is not alot of precipitation runoff occurring to affect any water levels, you should shoot the elevations of both bodies of water to see how they compare.
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...just curious; how did they lower it, and where did they send the water?
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...and finally.
Can you describe the destruction and re-construction of the roadbed in question? How far down did they dig? What did they use to replace it (medium and equipment)? Is there a drainage culvert underneath the roadbed?

Yes, it is true the muskrats could have been there all along. But their dens would have been at the high water mark, making it unlikely to create a drainage path.

If you look at the picture above, there are actually two drainage ditches that connect to the creek. One near my house, and the bigger one on the other side of the pond. Calling them drainage ditches is prolly not a good use of the term. At the end of each is a large outflow pipe that is part of a system of drainage pipes used to control runoff (roads, etc). The one on the right is 5-6 feet lower than the one near my house.

The pond was initally lowered by cutting a new drainage ditch from the lower right corner of the pond to the large drainage ditch to the right of the pond. This lowered the pond by over a foot or more. After the road construction, the temporary ditch was refilled

As for the road construction, the area that I circled was dug up and down about 2 feet (or a bit more). They encountered no water in doing this because the groundwater level had been lowered by lowering the pond. (it is possible that groundwater from that direction may have aided in resupplying the pond since mountains are 1/2 mile to the left). They placed a liner (like a pool liner) in the hole, then filled with gravel, then dirt, then resurfaced. It is thought that water in the pond, or water working it's way to the pond now flows around this liner and into the road drainage system (and thus out to the drain pipes in the ditches). No culvert under the road bed! Prolly a big mistake.

Meanwhile, with drought conditions, the pond has lowered even more (evapaoration) to the point where the muskrats can now burrow into the bottom (or bottom edge) of the pond, creating new pathways to the ditches and creek. So when it rains, it possibly flows out there now.

Fixing the rat holes may allow the pond to fill with normal rain, but if there is a pathway out on the north end, it will continue to stay low (but not as low as it is now).

Brettski, you are getting closer with your questions. I had not thought about ground water seeping down from the moutains as a source for the pond. What do you think?

Mike

If some of you would like, I can post some current photos... tell me what you want.

Mike

Mike
Start with a shovel and a few bags of concrete. They are cheep so maybe more than a few. Fill as mush as possible, they well set up on there own from the moisture in the ground.
We can always call in the heavy equipment.

Otto

more questions.
Give us an overview of the pond level changes over the past 5 summers that you have lived there (the good ol' days). Then, use "zero" as the brim full level and describe the level changes that occurred during these recent events. Include the relation to any excavation that occurred.
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I can't provide much thought to the groundwater idea; I'm thinkin' it's probably not a player.
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Another thought: my pond contractor built a pond once and the thing would never hold brim full. It always slipped back to about 1/2 full. Ultimately, they discovered an old farm tile inlet outside the pond (in the surrounding field) and ran a probe/sensor. It ran right to the edge of the pond. They dug it up, removed the hidden tile drain, and the pond filled.
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Are the 2 drainage ditches dry right now? Or, do they hold some water. I'm wondering if there is a way to determine if water is flowing thru them even though there is no precipitation occurring.

It has gone down about a foot a year. Faster in the beginning. Not it just stays where it is.

There is no reason for the drainage ditches to stay full... they rise and fall with the creek level. Actually, I am not sure why they are there in the first place... the city could have run pipes out to the creek. The big one is significantly big however, I have seen it full during bad storms.

What do you all think about me using tracer dye to see if the rat holes lead water to the creek?

Mike

You have to eliminate variables. Substantial holes in a pond bottom that start at a level even to the depleted water level are a player in the equation. So, yes, the dye will be a good way to eliminate the rat hole variable. The issue will be an accurate test. If the water level in the pond has stabilized, then we believe it is no longer escaping. You need escaping water as a vehicle to carry the dye. What would your plan be?
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The is another alternative. Theo's daughter, "E", has studied muskrats extensively. Her current research is developing the Rat-cam to attach to trained rodents for just this purpose. Ohio muskrats seem to be particularly receptive to not only filming, but have shown signs of mugging when the rat-cam is present in a pack. Once this distractive behavior is curbed, tunnel training will begin. You may be eligible to participate.
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(sorry; I lost control at the end)

Ha!

Well, when it rains, there should be some water moving. Thats when I would apply the dye.

Mike

SKM,

In reference to Brettski's train of thought about the drainage ditch and your comment..."The pond was initally lowered by cutting a new drainage ditch from the lower right corner of the pond to the large drainage ditch to the right of the pond. This lowered the pond by over a foot or more. After the road construction, the temporary ditch was refilled".

Do you know what type of material was used to backfill the ditch? Could it be that the material used was porous enough that the ditch still acts to drain off water from the pond? Couple this with 3 years of drought and some burrowing water pigs and its the "perfect storm" leading to your problem.

No expert here, just my thoughts.

Russ

Not a chance. By the time they filled it back in, the pond was already lower than the drainage ditch (and never came back up).

This is what leads me to believe that the road constuction and bib liner led to the pond's demise.

Mike