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#13069 - 09/30/05 03:10 PM Georgia Giant Growth Rates
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 8375
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Firstly, Deb I want to thank you for your participation in this forum. I think the position or philosophy of “Ken’s Hatchery” needed to be presented first hand. Welcome.

Please bear with me as my first question led to related secondary questions.

Since I have a pretty old catalog (1980’s), I know Georgia Giant hyb-bgill have been around for numerous years.

1. When were they first sold to the public?

2. In a previous post you mentioned the hatchery conducts research and development, quote- "We spend so much time in research and development......". Has the hatchery or anyone else conducted and DOCUMENTED, replicated, annual growth rate studies during the typical life span of these fish? In other words are there additional or other documented growth rates over a several year period of the Georgia Giants besides the monster 5 lb GG that has been set as a standard or goal that is shown on the Website and in the catalog? (I have not seen a recent catalog.) I assume, but maybe incorrectly, that no facility outside the hatchery has published these types of data because if data were available it would be advertised or promoted. Since you mentioned in a previous post that the hatchery conducts research and development, I think long term growth studies that document normal, annual growth over a several year period should be a basic part of one’s "research" activities.

The recent research study by WVA State College (AMJA, 2004. 66:312-318) that measured growth rates and protein diets of hybrid bluegills (sunfish) was conducted for just or only 12 weeks with fish initially sized at average of 33-34g pg.315, (3”?). I am interested in the long term or life span growth rates that have been documented or recorded on an annual basis for the GG hybrid. Many fish have been shown to have rapid, early growth rates, however, when sexual maturity occurs the growth rate significantly decreases. Does the hatchery have proof that the growth rates of GG hybrids continues to outpace or exceed the growth rates other well fed hybrid sunfish or high quality of pure strain bgill? Once maturity occurs growth rates can change or be variable depending on species and existing conditions. As you probably know, growth rates after maturity are an important part of developing a trophy fishery.

As a related subquestion, 1A. Does the hatchery have any documented growth rates for GG’s that were raised in Ken’s floating raceways? I am especially interested the variability of growth rates among individuals of a specific batch or spawn.

2. With optimum or near optimum conditions what is the typical maximum size of GG’s and at what age?

3. What is the typical life span of these fish? What are sizes of these fish (GG) when they are dying of old age at your hatchery? Any records and or photos?

4. After the initial stocking (see below, Ken's guidelines), what is the hatchery’s recommended annual or supplemental fish stocking or purchased NON-FISH additions for a pond during the duration of the typical F1, GG growth-life cycle to maintain best growth? If no post-stocking needs to occur, then are the GG’s expected to grow optimally by feeding primarily on the pond’s existing forage items and pelleted fish food?
Year 1 and number per acre: 3000 GG
600 channel cats
5000 gambusia minnows
600 large mouth OR 600-1000 smallmouth (6 months to 1 year later)
1 Aqaurius aerator
1 Bug-O-Matic Feeder
1 Automatic feeder (38% protein/22%fish meal pellets)
1 quart ocean blue pond dye (per acre 4 foot deep)

This part or subsection relates back to my basic question in part one above and I ask it because: After initial stocking, what is the annual NORMAL standard of growth rate of the GG’s (growth rate base line) so one can compare the growth of their GG fish or other sunfish with some sort of realistic standard GG growth rate? I think that the world class 5 pound GG depicted on the website is not going to be the standard, typical or normal GG growth that one can expect from these fish.

5. I suspect that many of your clients stock the GG into ponds that range in size from 0.2 – 1.0 acre. Are there exceptions or changes in the recommended stocking rates or management methods when the GG’s are used in different sized ponds if optimum growth rates are desired?.

6. Why do you recommend 38% protein when the West Virginia 2004 study indicated significantly better GG growth was with food containing 42%-44% protein? For optimum growth of most all sport fish, my experiences have also revealed that foods containing 40%+ protein produce better growth results than the lower protein foods, especially when fish are in crowded conditions (such as Ken’s hatchery guidelines), when the natural food chain base is heavily grazed and or when the fish do not have or have very limited access to natural foods (caged, in raceways, or in intensive recirculating systems).

7. Do the GG F1 hybrids display sexual dimorphism? The reason I asked about the ratio of GG males to females is I was thinking about the possibility of stocking just male fish into small waters or using only male fish as non-problematic bonus fish in mixed or single species ponds. Male only fish would eliminate the necessity of stocking predators to control subsequent additions of substandard offspring.
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#13070 - 10/01/05 10:56 AM Re: Georgia Giant Growth Rates
Debra King Offline
Lunker

Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 556
Loc: South Ga.
Thank you for the warm welcome!

I will do what I can to answer but guessing is not something I will do. I have only been with Ken for two years, so I will easily acknowledge to not having near the experience or knowledge of you all (or even Ken for that matter). That is why I am so glad ML invited us to this forum. All be it I have read so many past posts that things are starting to run together. Regardless, give me a chance to gather the info that you have requested. They are good questions, and some that I too should be asking (or have had asked previously). Sometimes there are not enough hours in the day. We are not the “huge” company everyone makes us out to be. In fact our town doesn’t even have a caution light, and our office is an old cinder block fish-out house (with restrooms on the outside mind you; like a gas station). I am the only biologist in the office, I dispatch the fish trucks, run the lab (dissections, aging, infections,...), am working on three genetic projects (not all fish), handle a fair share of walk-in customers, keep up with the internet (emails and such), and field an overflow of phone calls. Not to mention my desks are right beside Ken so I am constantly answering questions from him. Then after 9 hours there I drive to my second job as a single mother of an extremely intelligent but wildly active 2 ½ year old. I only tell you all of this so that you will understand if it takes me awhile to gather the info you requested

Bream 2-3 pounds growing in optimum conditions would be average. We have ponds with GG weighing more, as do many of our customers, but an average would be 2-3 lbs.

I would only add minnows, insects, and pellet feed to an original stock. (more giants if the customer got cookout happy and kept out most of the original stock when caught). Keep in mind management on the customers part is very important (aeration, pond dye, ...) Each pond varies with the needs of the customer.

You are correct that “Bubba”, as someone in an earlier thread so eloquently called him, was not the norm. But couldn’t we make it that way? Would it not be wonderful if we could genetically engineer it so that we were getting 4-5 lb. And larger bream? Not a LMB angler’s dream of course, but what about a bream fisher’s dream? That is part of the “research and development” I have mentioned before. We should never be satisfied. To be so is to be bored.

I recommend the 38% as a summer feed. I don’t want to insult your intelligence by telling you how fish feed (based on temperature). You knew this before I was even born. Therefore our “summer” feed (floating pellet) is a 38% protein 22% fish meal combination that Ken developed especially for the bream. Our “winter” feed is a 45% protein (sinking pellet) that has worked wonderful both in our area and in the North where fish don’t want to come up to the ice th “chat” with you.

As far as the sexual dimorphism you mentioned, I would believe this difference (if exhibited) would only be noticed in adults. John is one of our biologists who works out in the ponds daily. He also worked in tandem with the State of Georgia through the Experiment Station for the last twenty years. I will differ this question to him, and get you a knowledgeable answer.
Your idea of a male only stock (with an abundance of minnows, bugs, and high protein feed) would ideally yield some monster bream. Especially without the bass around to compete for food. This is also a possible theory behind why Bubba grew as large as he did. The customers had stocked the pond twenty years prior with GG, cats and bass. They had well over a decade of very good fishing, then stopped catching fish. They figured they had caught everything out of the pond and were planning on selling the property so they never restocked. Eventually the property sold, and when the new owner started draining the pond he found our little “freak”. Apparently Mr. Bubba had the run of the pond for quite awhile (although he was lonely).
I want to further my degree at some point, and you might have just given me a good idea for a thesis (if you don’t jump the gun on me [it was your idea]).

Anyway, I hope this answered a few of your questions, and as for the others I will get you accurate results as soon as I possibly can.

Thank you again for your acceptance of me into what appears to be a neat “boys’ club” ;\) . You all have vast amounts of knowledge from all different views and experiences, and I appreciate the time you are taking to teach me and others.

Sincerely,

Deb
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#13071 - 10/01/05 08:56 PM Re: Georgia Giant Growth Rates
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 8375
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Deb - I am from a town very similar in size to the one you describe. I assumed that you are kept very busy on the job and most of your posts have been on your own time. I know very well that this web site can consume a lot of time. Please take your time and to gather the appropriate information. I suspect there is not very much data going to be available or released; we will see.

A bream of 3 pounds is a big bream; even a two pounder is big by comparison to most of the larger sunfishes. (Q1) You say "We have ponds with GG weighing more," do you mean ponds owned by Ken? Are there photos and recorded ages of these fish at 3 lbs or 3+ lbs? (Q2) How long does it take for a GG in your location to get to 3 lbs? Annual growth increments to the 3 lb mark is what my growth questions are all about. The average life span of GG would be good to know. (Q3) Can you figure out from sales records how old "Bubba was?

(Q4) from above, "Additions of minnows to the initial stocking", are these minnows mosquito fish?

I am aware that sexual dimorphism is apparent in mature or very close to mature fish. By all means ask John about recognizing male vs female GG; (Q5)at what size does "maleism" show up, is it only seasonal (breeding) and how accurate can it be? The male pure bgill that some of us have been working with have to be definately older (around 7") before they can be distinguished with accuracy.

If data for growth rate information are not available maybe Ken will allow you to do a study in one of his small hatchery ponds; he should even encourage it! Heck if all ponds are being used, he could dig a new small 0.1 ac pond and put some GG in it for the study, then reuse the pond for other profitable things when study is finished. If you start with a 0.1 ac pond and divide it in half (2 replicates, 0.05ac) that means you would still add 150 GG (3000/ac) to each replicate. That is a lot of fish in a pond 47'x47'(0.05ac, 2209sqft area). OR, a new local customer may let you use their pond for the study, if Ken furnishes the fish for free. Which is a small price to pay for your efforts, the data and benefits that he will get from those initial "at cost" fish. Put your biology background, college education, and learning about scientific method to practical use. Collect some data. The data would be very useful for future sales and promotions at the hatchery.

If hatchery pond space is limited, I don't think you would need any controls or replicates and you wouldn't have to raise other fish for comparison purposes. There are lots of published growth data available for pure bgill and "normal BG hybrids" for you to compare your GG growth results with. The study may even be publishable in an aquaculture newsletter, magazine or secondary journal. Aquaculture people would be very interestd in your results. I will gladly review and edit the final draft of a paper authored by you.

I would think Ken would be very positive for a study like this to occur. Labor would be basically free and "big" numerous long term benefits could result for him. He could even sell the adult fish when the study is finished. I am surprised he or someone else has not already done a study like this. Plus it would give you some good experience if you go back to grad school. There are numerous positives to this idea.

I look forward to whatever else you can provide about the above questions and the GG annual growth rates / life span info.
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#13072 - 10/01/05 09:34 PM Re: Georgia Giant Growth Rates
Bill Duggan Offline
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Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 608
Loc: Flatrock, Ga.
Bill, I have a question could someone get a Georgia Giant and sent it to a university lab and get a DNA study and find out the "secret formula" for Georgia Giants

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#13073 - 10/01/05 09:53 PM Re: Georgia Giant Growth Rates
Bill Cody Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 8375
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Bill, I am not a molecular geneticist, however I did take a college course in molecular genetics. I think your idea could be done, but the lab would also have to have background DNA chromosomal data for all the other sunfishes, so the test fish data could be deciphered. Not a cheap, simple, quick or easy test. I am not sure which organizations have DNA chromosomal plots or DNA baselines for numerous fishes. I do know that Ohio State Univ has done DNA work comparing walleye and blue walleye. Dr Willis or Bruce C. may have some knowledge of this topic. A web search may provide some help.

POSTSCRIPT 10-7-05
Ohio Center for Aquaculture Development (OSU affiliate) has a grant to study growth characteristics of various hybrid sunfish. The study includes GG hybrids. The study is to end in 2007. In this study they may do a DNA testing to verify the parentage of the GG hybrid.
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#13074 - 10/01/05 10:36 PM Re: Georgia Giant Growth Rates
Bill Duggan Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 608
Loc: Flatrock, Ga.
Bill you are great, but will never be a yes or no man. just kidding, thanks for the answer

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#13075 - 10/02/05 08:49 AM Re: Georgia Giant Growth Rates
Debra King Offline
Lunker

Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 556
Loc: South Ga.
Bill,
(Q3) Can you figure out from sales records how old "Bubba was? The pond had been stocked twenty years prior with nothing added by a human since.

(Q4) from above, "Additions of minnows to the initial stocking", are these minnows mosquito fish? Yes! I happen to prefer them due to the multipurpose they serve. Do you know something negative about them?

Your knowledge and suggestions have me very intriqued. In fact, given time, I might try to use two small ponds on the farm to conduct some field research. Thank you for your offer to review and edit, but I am not sure it would come back unbiased. Regardless my sister is finishing her doctrate in English from FSU (as well as teaching)as we speak and would love to use the old red pen. But again thank you for the offer, and I would still respect your opinions once having read it. I am talking like it is already done, when I am sure it would take several years to get to where I am headed. But hopefully you can see how excited you have made me!
I will work on the other answers for you!

Thanks again,

Deb
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#13076 - 10/02/05 01:50 PM Re: Georgia Giant Growth Rates
Bruce Condello Offline
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Registered: 08/01/04
Posts: 8625
Loc: United States
I'll take credit for the "Bubba" moniker.

The picture of this giant sunfish has been the screen saver on my computer for three years so I've always been fascinated by this fish. In a way I've used the photo as the benchmark for what I'd like to achieve someday.

My problem with Mr. Holyoke and his business is that the literature that I've read, all provided by the business has been what I would classify as "scientifically dubious". For his educational credits, Ken has used a surprisingly simplistic approach to explaining the origin of this fish.

Here are my very biased original assumptions that I had before Deb came to our forum.

1. I have never believed, nor do I currently believe that sunfish raised in southern regions can achieve life spans of twenty years. I read the story of how "Bubba" was found and saw the claim of 20 years old. Every scrap of literature I've ever read about bluegill, redears, greenies, etc. indicate that even in northern regions a nine or ten year old sunfish is reaching extremely old age. Could these fish be being bred for extended life span? My knowledge of genetics will not allow me to believe this is possible without using 50+ years of genetic selection. Was a scale sample ever taken? Can't find evidence of this anywhere. Also I've taken scale samples and microscopically aged sunfish for years and old sunfish look "geriatric". Body condition begins to deteriorate. Fins show signs of extreme wear. Wr's plummet. The fish in this picture looks extremely vital to me.

2. If these fish have high growth rates (four times normal) and twenty year life span, and great vitality, why wasn't this fish ten pounds?? I know this is ludicrous, but something just doesn't jive here.

3. Why can we never see a clear photo of a mature younger fish? The photos on the website are of fish far away, and hardly identifiable. And to boot these fish have different markings than "Bubba".

4. If a study was done on growth rates, but only something like twelve week period was used, I don't see how this equates to long term growth trends. Often GS X BG hybrids exhibit rapid early growth but all things being equal, almost all states that have records for purebred BG and for hybrids, the BG record exceeds the hybrid record. Conventional thinking is that hybrids won't have a top end weight any better than the larger of the two parent species. Hybrid aggression, "heterosis", and a big mouth make GS X BG hybrids great early growers but they don't have the same genetic potential as a purebred bluegill.

5. Some of the comments made by proponents of this fish have the clear indication that three or more species of fish are involved. If this is the case, it seems to fly in the face of convention that backcrossing of hybrid fish leads to diminished viability and reproductive potential. Something not quite right here.

Now all of this indicates that either I know a little too much about this stuff, or maybe I don't know nearly enough. Regardless, I've always been suspicious of the Georgia Giant.

Now that I've got that off of my chest, I've been extremely impressed by Deb's knowledge and ability to communicate. I also felt like she'd take a little heat and fold up like a cheap tent. Boy, was I wrong there! She's tough, unafraid and believes in her position. I really like those traits and I'm glad that she's here. Most of all, though, I'd really just like to see a clear picture of a live one. To this point I've only seen clear pictures of the mounts, which are only an artists rendition of what a fish "can" look like. Sure, I can see that the mouth is large....that would certainly help early growth rates. It's frustrating, but fun all at the same time. I'm a centrarchidae fanatic and I want to learn more for selfish reasons. I think it can help me in my program to have enhanced growth rate bluegills. I agree with Bill that it would be sure nice to have some information verified using classic scientific process. If that were the case, the people of this forum would probably spread the word enough to sell millions more of these fish.
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#13077 - 10/02/05 04:05 PM Re: Georgia Giant Growth Rates
ewest Offline
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Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 16391
Loc: Miss.
Info to consider.

Inherent Growth Capacity and Social Costs of Bluegill and Hybrids of Bluegill and Green Sunfish: Which Fish Really Grows Faster?
R. S. Hayward

Department of Fisheries and Wildlife Sciences, School of Natural Resources, 302 Anheuser-Busch Natural Resources Building, University of Missouri, Columbia, Missouri 65211, USA

H. P. Wang

Fisheries College, Huazhong Agricultural University, Wuchang, Wuhan 430070, China

Abstract.—There is interest in knowing whether the bluegill Lepomis macrochirus or a hybrid of bluegill and green sunfish L. cyanellus (F1: male bluegill × female green sunfish; hereafter called B × G hybrids) can be grown faster to food market size (225–340 g). The predominant view is that the hybrid grows faster. In this study, the inherent growth capacities (IGCs) of age-1 bluegills and B × G hybrids were determined over four successive 25-d periods (May–August 2000) by holding them individually at 22°C and feeding them to apparent satiation three times daily. The hybrid's IGC was greater during period 1 but fell to only 33% of the bluegill's over the three subsequent periods; the consumption and gross growth efficiency (GGE) of the hybrid showed similar declining patterns. The growth-in-weight trajectory of bluegills crossed above that of the hybrids at about 30 g. Gonadosomatic index values suggested that hybrid growth rates declined below those of the bluegill because the former invested more energy in gonads as age-1 fish. A follow-up study, conducted under similar conditions from August 2000 to March 2001, found that individually held age-1 bluegills starting at 30 g reached more than 100 g in 200 d, gaining nearly twice the weight achieved by hybrids of similar starting weight that were reared in parallel. The costs of social interaction in terms of reduced consumption, growth, and GGE were also quantified for bluegills and hybrids by comparing individually held fish with group-held fish over periods 1–3. Social costs reduced the growth rates of grouped bluegills more than those of grouped hybrids over the 75-d period. Our findings indicate that while the IGC was higher for the hybrids as early age-1 fish, the long-term IGC (e.g., to food market weights) is higher for bluegills; however, this result may be obscured, in part, by the bluegill's higher social costs. Reduction of bluegill social costs in certain culture settings should result in growth rates that approach their higher IGC. Also, social costs varied in response to short-term shifts in the IGCs of both fishes, indicating a previously unknown influence on social interactions in fishes.

Received: December 22, 2000; Accepted: August 15, 2001
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#13078 - 10/02/05 08:16 PM Re: Georgia Giant Growth Rates
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 8375
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Deb - The two posts above this one create even more need or impetus to do a growth rate study.

I am not sure why you think my review and edit of your potential growth study would be biased. I have a pretty long list of scientific publications with my name on them as author or coauthor. In fact, a coauthor and I currently have a paper submitted to Diatom Research for publication. I have another paper that I coauthored early this year in the same journal. Bias is something I try very hard to avoid. Once you get to graduate school you will quickly discover that scientific writing is quite different than those works created in english class. My offer for review and edit still stands. If you think I'm a tough reviewer wait till you submit a paper to a refereed journal and get your paper chopped by anonymous, professional / academic, fisheries reviewers such as Hayward and Wang cited above.
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#13079 - 10/02/05 09:06 PM Re: Georgia Giant Growth Rates
Debra King Offline
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Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 556
Loc: South Ga.
Bill,
Please reread my post (not quite so seriously) and realize I was being light-hearted. I would welcome your review should I make it that far. As for the English jab, my sister already has 13 publications and two novels (as well as having presented at several conferences [San Antonio last year, Philidelphia and England the year before], so I am well versed in the "axing" procedures of the professional/academic community. Not to mention that my father is a retired psychologist.

Would you mind including some links to your published work? Although lately I feel as though my head is actually expanding in size (about to blow)just from the readings here, I would sincerely like to see your credentials at work.

Deb
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#13080 - 10/03/05 09:15 AM Re: Georgia Giant Growth Rates
Greg Grimes Offline
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Registered: 05/03/02
Posts: 3973
Loc: Ball Ground, GA
Bruce great post. I feel the same way. Show me some good scientific proof and I will believe. Ewest just provided some that would differ from Ken's. Deb has responded well to most post but did not comment on your questions/comments?

I had one Georgia Giant in my pond from client who bought them 3 years before. It was 1.3 lbs big boy. We were taking them out of the lake but knew one would not be a problem in my pond. He would out compete all bluegill for food. He was caught many times and was dubbed "steriod bream" by a friend. He was weighed the last time at 2.1 lbs about 2.5 years after I put him in. Reason for all this, he is gone. He has not been seen since early spring. I guess he died and if so lived about 6 years from original stocking at 3 inches.

Only one example here...Duggan how old are your fish? Have you seen reproduciton? What is average size?
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#13081 - 10/03/05 09:51 AM Re: Georgia Giant Growth Rates
Bill Duggan Offline
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Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 608
Loc: Flatrock, Ga.
Hey Greg want to hear about your trip. My GG are now 4 years old. But remember I have not followed Kens plan at all(sorry Deb). I stocked Coopernose and Redears the second year mainly because this board was scaring me to death. Also I fertilize with excellent results and feed with lower protein/%fishmeal Ken recommends. The GG I catch which I consider the origional stocking are all over a pound with some 1.5 lbs. I am having good reproduction but I don't know if they are GG F-2s, Coppernoses or GG/coopernoses Hybrids. I am careful to look for any signs of Greensunfish and have not seen any. IDing sunfish is something I am not as good at as Bruce ect so I mostly look for the large mouth as a GG

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#13082 - 10/03/05 10:30 AM Re: Georgia Giant Growth Rates
Greg Grimes Offline
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Registered: 05/03/02
Posts: 3973
Loc: Ball Ground, GA
Ok BIll it was fun, killed lots of doves. I did see one thing applies here. There were water snakes that hangout at fish feeder. When it goes off they go out and catch the smaller bluegill and little gambusia minnows. Brush country is unique place.

Ok so good percentage of stock still living it seems is pretty good after 4 years? Can you post a pic of offspring? Are they growing as well as first stock of GG?
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#13083 - 10/03/05 10:51 AM Re: Georgia Giant Growth Rates
Bill Duggan Offline
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Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 608
Loc: Flatrock, Ga.
Greg I am not sure I should in fairness to Ken because of my stocking methods. I don't want to post a GG/coopernose hybrid and everyone jump on the F-2s being so different. Did that make any sense?

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#13084 - 10/03/05 11:23 AM Re: Georgia Giant Growth Rates
Greg Grimes Offline
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Registered: 05/03/02
Posts: 3973
Loc: Ball Ground, GA
that does make sense since you did sotck bluegill. I still think that was critical for your early bass growth.
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#13085 - 10/03/05 01:23 PM Re: Georgia Giant Growth Rates
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 8375
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Deb - I will email you at work address about a list of my publications and presentations.

You should be getting an idea of the general opinions of the doubts and vague facts regarding the GG hybrids. More and more it is becoming evident that we would really like to see you be able to get some QUALITY photos of the GG's that are 2 lbs or even 3 lbs. The fish can come from Ken's hatchery stock or a pondowner near the hatchery. As Bruce said if someone can produce some reproducable, scientific growth data about GG's then Ken's market would definitely increase.
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#13086 - 10/03/05 03:14 PM Re: Georgia Giant Growth Rates
Debra King Offline
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Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 556
Loc: South Ga.
Ok Greg, you promised to leave my thread alone so jump ship \:D . Just kidding. I guess I can play with you like any other rattlesnake. I just called John, our biologist out in the field, in reference to some literature on growth rates. He stated some literature did exist (stored in basement), so now I have yet another project. As for the pictures we have none on file other than those pictured in the catalog. But, just yesterday they were catching 1 1/2 to 2 pounders for a fish fry in the pond behind Jason's home (Ken's son). John said that they were set to drain this pond (stocked 2 years ago) in the next month or two, so I will have enough pictures then to hopefully satisy everyone, even doubting Greg. You all might want to go to O'Neal's website also. He filmed last Spring at a pond of a customer of ours in Tifton, and they were popping GG's over a pound. Maybe he has shows on tape for sale.
I will make believers out of you all yet. \:\)

By the way Greg since you are so dead set against the GG, yet you admit to learning alot while in the field, why don't you grow some GG's under your program and report back to us? Just a thought! You have stated all of the complaints that you have had to deal with on them, but were these fish grown with your knowledge and expertise? ;\)

Deb
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#13087 - 10/03/05 03:28 PM Re: Georgia Giant Growth Rates
Debra King Offline
Lunker

Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 556
Loc: South Ga.
Oops, sorry Greg, wrong post! You keep popping up in places when I feel just comfortable enough to be there. Kinda like a little brother ;\) ! I can't learn if you keep pestering me \:D \:D \:D !!!

Deb
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#13088 - 10/03/05 08:03 PM Re: Georgia Giant Growth Rates
Ric Swaim Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 1902
Loc: Surry Co NC
I haven't commented directly on the GG yet so here goes.

After reading all these threads I am left with the impression I get from a good salesman.

It should be after 40 yrs in business a simple matter to provide data, pictures, ect to back up all the great claims of GG's.

It is dificult for me to believe no pic's are on file after 4 decades of growing a particular & special quality fish, and no data has been collected.

Several questions have been answered but in a tactfull way as we expect a politician to respond. Many were evasive.

AND , What happened to Ken? No offense Deb, but it would be nice to here his views.
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#13089 - 10/03/05 08:08 PM Re: Georgia Giant Growth Rates
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 8375
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Deb - When they drain that pond be sure to get some length measurements and acurate weights. Also make note of the varability in sizes of GG's esp those that seem to belong to the same year class. you should be able to easily recognize the different year classes due to disparity in size. Some scale samples from proper body areas would be appreciated by Bruce Conello. Do you know the proper area of the body for collecting sunfish scale samples?
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#13090 - 10/03/05 08:21 PM Re: Georgia Giant Growth Rates
Bill Cody Offline
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Field Correspondent

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Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 8375
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Deb, I have another question about this topic that you should be able to fairly easily answer or at least get some data for it.

What is the largest size of F1 GG's that the hatchery can produce in one season? i.e. The best size of GG available from the first spawn of the year- May to November or early Dec? Actual measurements no estimates and a photo of one or several next to a ruler would be nice.
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#13091 - 10/06/05 10:07 PM Re: Georgia Giant Growth Rates
matthew Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 8
Loc: ohio - appalachian foothills
The reason Deb, or Ken, don't produce proof of their claims is that there is none. This is old news, a super bluegill grown by a pro with "patents". Sorry, but only the name is patented, according to the patent office. Ken is a big time salesman (conman?), selling the typical bullshit hybrid bluegill that revert to greenies, but with a clever marketing spin and push. I can't believe that there is even a thread for this, GET A CLUE!! If this was the real deal, you would see piles of evidence, and unending testimonials, not to mention numerous state records. Where are they? They grow a few big fish, so what? The standard bluegill has some impressively sized specimens as well. Anyone that buys this line of crap from Ken deserves what they get, lighter in the wallet with a pond full of plain hybrid bluegills. Give up on demanding scientific review and use a little logic. No credible objective evidence, decades with no buzz other than that produced by Ken (lots of fish sold, where are all the tickled shitless buyers with ponds overrunning with 3 pound gills?), deceptive marketing language (patents, special strain, available no where else). This is a new twist on an old idea, it's called a scam. ANYONE WANT TO BUY A BRIDGE IN BROOKLYN?

Just my dumb hillbilly opinion, ready to get fired on with abuse.

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#13092 - 10/07/05 09:23 AM Re: Georgia Giant Growth Rates
Debra King Offline
Lunker

Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 556
Loc: South Ga.
Bill- Thanks for the suggestions! That is exactly what we will do when we drain (ruler as well as using scales for weight), and yes I can handle the scale sampling properly. I can also handle the one season question, as it will be around November when we drain that one pond (should not be a problem to “test drive” the other ponds for an accurate growth on a season one F-1). The info that others have referred to is there, it is just a bunch of information buried in a mound of paperwork that I have not had the time to get to. Pictures have been posted, and more will follow. Documents will also, but I fear that even a fish up against the side of the head would not change the limited views of some.
I do not believe I have evaded any questions. I have requested time for research, but have not evaded anyone (also am a scientist, not a salesperson).

As for bridges, they are also good for jumping! :rolleyes:

Deb

Sorry again Bill \:\( ! Just could not keep my hands tied down ;\) .
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#13093 - 10/07/05 09:46 AM Re: Georgia Giant Growth Rates
Bill Duggan Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 608
Loc: Flatrock, Ga.
No problem I think Bob Lusk calmed things down

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