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#1153 - 11/12/05 06:09 AM Building a sand beach
Brettski Offline
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Registered: 10/07/05
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Well, my prep. list continues to grow. As mentioned in other posts, I am between construction phases of a 5a project. An access road is cut in, the timber is cleared, and my pockets are MT. It's kinda odd how the "MT pockets" thing turned out to be a blessing in that it has caused me to take time out after clearing and wait 'til next year to build the dam and bottom-scape. Darn good thing, too, because you guys are really opening my eyes to the multitude of pre-water advantages during construction. So, the next consideration.....
I want to add a sand beach. Nothing more than about 100' square, maybe half in the water. The area chosen is a nice gentle slope near the future homesite. The area (as is the surrounding basin) is currently a layer of about 3 feet of silt/topsoil with about 30 ft of clay beneath. I don't want to disturb the beach zone because it is the exact grade I want and matches the adjacent shore. This means that I plan to build a sand beach on top of this silt/topsoil base, maybe cutting a 12" deep core to accept a bed of sand.
My thoughts: Do I need a fabric to contain the sand bed AND minimize weed growth? Is this a mistake to lay this sand bed on the silt/topsoil...should I remove the topsoil and replace the grade with clay (hoping "no")? What are all the subsequent "good ideas" related to this facet that I'm not thinkin' of?
Your thoughts...?
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#1154 - 11/12/05 07:08 AM Re: Building a sand beach
Theo Gallus Offline
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Brettski:

I found the thread I remembered: Beach Sand

It discusses sources/costs of sand and possible underlayment materials (a little, at least).

My wife's experience with landscape cloth under sand has shown that it will prevent almost all plants from growing up through the sand, but after a couple of years or so, you can have about as many new plants growing IN the sand as existed before, unless you regularly remove them.
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#1155 - 11/12/05 07:41 AM Re: Building a sand beach
Brettski Offline
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Thank ya, Theo....I searched "beach" before I posted and got seemingly nuthin...?
I am hoping to get the rest of the crew to kick in. This has got to be a "natch" for most pondsters.
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#1156 - 11/12/05 08:35 AM Re: Building a sand beach
ewest Offline
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Brettski :

Sand will work its way into the underlying dirt and will tend to wash down slope. You can stop the later by using a small ridge/barrier on the down slope end of the beach. During dam construction have the dozer make a small basin at the beach by pushing some dirt from the water edge of the beach area to the deep end of the beach to make the berm and thus create a basin. We still have to add more sand every few years to replace that which is lost.

Think about your beach location wrt a pier and shade/sun , trees and silt washing in on the sand. If you will have a pier it is good for it to be next to the beach ( parents watching kids or sunning vs swimming). Also watching the fish use the sand beach to spawn from a seat on the pier or fishing for same. ewest
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#1157 - 11/17/05 11:13 AM Re: Building a sand beach
Ryan Freeze Offline
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Registered: 10/31/05
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Brettski, I'm a believer in landscape fabric. We get it in 12' wide rolls which is a pretty good size to work with. Theo is right and weeds will find their way in but the fabric will help separate the sand from the underlying soil, making the weeds easier to pull and require less sand replenishment. I do not have a beach but I know of three in my area. The one that has about a 12" layer of sand and fabric underneath is by far the nicest.

WARNING: Cat's like the sand too!
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#1158 - 11/17/05 12:13 PM Re: Building a sand beach
Brettski Offline
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Thanks, guys....
Ryan, do you have a little more direction on the fabric thing? I am familiar with the lawn & garden stuff in 3 - 4' wide rolls, but I think I remember "geo-textile" or something like that in one of the (yours?) past posts...? 12' wide rolls would "rock"...I'll bet the price does, also.
Ewest...
the plan is to keep it simple; cut a 12" deep core thru the entire beach area, above and below the water line. Line the bottom and up the edges with a roll of Ryan's geo-textile, super-duty "beach barrier" landscape fabric, and back up the sand trux. Are you suggesting that an additional berm be rolled up at the bottom of the beach area below the water line?
Regarding cats, the coyotes will enjoy their company.
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#1159 - 11/17/05 03:27 PM Re: Building a sand beach
Ryan Freeze Offline
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The last time the Company purchased the Geotextile fabric a 12-1/2'x 360' roll cost $250. It is very heavy duty. That works out to less than 6 cents sq. ft. Good deal but a lot of material. I get it from State Highway Supply. They have two types. One is woven one is fibrous. Both are good, the woven is cheaper. You may be able to buy partial rolls, find a road or bridge contractor that could part with a little, or find other uses for it such as flower beds, garden, paths, etc. The economy grade 3'x 50' stuff at the big box stores works out to about the same price/sq.ft. but is much lower quality.
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#1160 - 11/17/05 04:53 PM Re: Building a sand beach
ewest Offline
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Brettski :

Keep it simple is a good idea as long as it works as planned. I am not suggesting anything extra. As long as you have a basin to keep the sand from washing down slope into deeper water and away from the beach you should be ok . The fabric should keep the sand from mixing with the underlying dirt. If the top of the sand is even with the top of the dirt you will get much more silt on top of your sand than if the top of the sand is higher than the dirt but constrained by a berm. Think about a sand box in the yard. If you dig it out so that it is ground level when full it will get dirt in the sand quicker than if you buy a plastic sand box (above ground) and fill it with sand. So I guess what I am suggesting is to do exactly what you are planning but take the dirt from the core/trenching and use it to make a berm on the down slope end of the beach so that you can pile the sand up higher than the surrounding pond bottom. No extra work as you have to get rid of the dirt anyway. Might as well use it to your advantage. ewest
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#1161 - 11/17/05 08:19 PM Re: Building a sand beach
Brettski Offline
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Thanks Ryan...any memory as to the name of the manufacturer of the 12' wide product? I could see the possibility of a full roll purchase if I could find it retail (or wholesale direct, if the manufacturer agrees).
Ewest...maybe I should consider a 6" core and used the excavated waste to build up a berm on all 3 sides (below waterline) to create a 12" deep pocket, elevating the top of the sand about 6" above the surrounding natural pond bottom..?
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#1162 - 11/18/05 09:25 AM Re: Building a sand beach
Ryan Freeze Offline
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Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 1284
Loc: Southwest Ohio
Here is a link to the MFG. Geotextile They also have a nice line of erosion control products
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#1163 - 11/18/05 09:28 AM Re: Building a sand beach
Ryan Freeze Offline
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Registered: 10/31/05
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Loc: Southwest Ohio
Ewest had some good suggestions. The better beach I commented on earlier has the sand piled up about 8" above the surrounding sod. Leaves seem to collect around the edges rather than in the sand.
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#1164 - 11/18/05 11:15 AM Re: Building a sand beach
Brettski Offline
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Poifect! thanx again Ryan. I have just shot off an email to a sales rep at Geotextile.
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#1165 - 11/18/05 08:08 PM Re: Building a sand beach
ahvatsa Offline
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Registered: 10/02/04
Posts: 352
Loc: Poth/McCoy, Texas
This may give some info also:

http://www.landplan.com.au/index.htm

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#1166 - 11/18/05 09:54 PM Re: Building a sand beach
ilovefishingmark Offline
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Registered: 04/21/03
Posts: 271
Loc: mtn. home, arkansas
while we are on this landscape fabric stuff...i was preparing to strengthen my spill way which was just hard clay. first i put down the really good landscape fabric (i think it was the 250 bucks a roll stuff..supposed to be guaranteed for 20 years or so...i got it from a retired landscape architect...so don't know exactly where it came from.) anway, i put the stuff down over the spill way, and was going to put down big chunk rock. i threw some bermuda seed around it and on it in the meantime... well, i got busy, didn't have time to put the chunk rock down...and within 3 months...that bermuda grass has bonded to that stuff as hard as concrete. anyway...may be a cheaper solution to spillway/erosion areas for some of ya'll. some of the seed had also come from me mowing around it, and the clippings just flew over it and whala..before i knew it...thick bermuda over the spillway.

mark

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#185610 - 09/30/09 01:11 PM Re: Building a sand beach [Re: ilovefishingmark]
Omaha Offline
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Thought I’d bump this up to get some opinions on my situation. We’re nearly completed on the excavation of the swimming area and I want to be ready to get that worked on while the rest of the pond is dug. Here’s what I was thinking (and I’ll throw in the actual measurements when I visit the site this afternoon)…

Using 8 inches of pea gravel instead of sand and using the aforementioned geotextile type underlayment. I would create a separate basin, of sorts, from the rest of the pond, then a berm separating the pea gravel from the muddy rest of the pond. I was thinking a 4:1 slope and am curious if this is enough to keep the pea gravel from falling in and just piling up on the bottom. Also, I was planning on graveling only the beach area and leveled off swimming area, not touch the opposite bank. I wanted to make sure that wouldn’t interfere. We wouldn’t use these banks, would only enter from the one beach next to our camp area.

So I’d like to know a cost/performance effective fabric to lay down and what others’ experiences have been with what they’ve used. Maybe I should start my own thread on this, but I thought the history of this one might be nice to just add onto.

This isn't the best picture of the area I'm talking about and maybe I can add a better one later. Basically, the area I'm talking about is right there where the dirt meets the grass. It's much more excavated than that now, but this is the best picture I have on this computer here.


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#185612 - 09/30/09 01:31 PM Re: Building a sand beach [Re: Omaha]
Brettski Offline
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#185618 - 09/30/09 03:20 PM Re: Building a sand beach [Re: Brettski]
Omaha Offline
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Always great to go back and check out your well documented project Brettski. Thanks. Does my plan sound pretty reasonable compared to what you did? I'm using pea gravel instead of sand and my area is in a sliver of a corner of the small pond.
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#185673 - 09/30/09 08:07 PM Re: Building a sand beach [Re: Omaha]
Omaha Offline
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Ok, it's approximately an 40' x 80' area I have to work with. How does my plan look and how much rock will I need?

EDIT - found a material calculator and it looks like I'll need about 142 tons. Does that sound right? That sounds REALLY high?


Edited by Omaha (09/30/09 08:11 PM)
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#185678 - 09/30/09 08:31 PM Re: Building a sand beach [Re: Omaha]
Brettski Offline
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The main players are the quality of the geotex fabric and a good, firm perimeter berm to the correct depth. I cannot say from experience, but I gotta think that pea gravel will stay in one place (on a slope) as good or better than sand.
Lyle and Scott Kriebel built a pea gravel beach at their project (I think...???) There are a couple others that frequent the forum that did the same. Hopefully they will kick in some input.
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#185681 - 09/30/09 08:35 PM Re: Building a sand beach [Re: Omaha]
teehjaeh57 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Omaha
Ok, it's approximately an 40' x 80' area I have to work with. How does my plan look and how much rock will I need?

EDIT - found a material calculator and it looks like I'll need about 142 tons. Does that sound right? That sounds REALLY high?


3200 sq feet at 6-8" deep is a VAST area to fill with pea gravel. Am I understanding you correctly? At 35-45/T you're talking about 5-6k in pea gravel. How much of this area do you want to rock, and how thick?
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#185682 - 09/30/09 08:38 PM Re: Building a sand beach [Re: teehjaeh57]
Brettski Offline
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In my area, washed 1/4" pea gravel goes for about $10 per ton. You can knock a buck or so outta the price by going to the next size up (forgot the exact name), but it goes up to about 1/2" dia.
(pricing is quarry direct)
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#185699 - 09/30/09 09:29 PM Re: Building a sand beach [Re: teehjaeh57]
Omaha Offline
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 Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
 Originally Posted By: Omaha
Ok, it's approximately an 40' x 80' area I have to work with. How does my plan look and how much rock will I need?

EDIT - found a material calculator and it looks like I'll need about 142 tons. Does that sound right? That sounds REALLY high?


3200 sq feet at 6-8" deep is a VAST area to fill with pea gravel. Am I understanding you correctly? At 35-45/T you're talking about 5-6k in pea gravel. How much of this area do you want to rock, and how thick?


I can shave up the area of course, but the area I was looking at, from measuring today, is 40x80. Pretty large I know. I'll have to look at it a little more and maybe get a little creative.
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#185728 - 10/01/09 07:32 AM Re: Building a sand beach [Re: Omaha]
Theo Gallus Offline
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You should consider all possible alternate beach materials to see what's acceptable that costs the least.

Around here, the lowest cost fill/sand type stuff is limestone screenings, which runs from large sand down to dust in size.
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#185736 - 10/01/09 08:33 AM Re: Building a sand beach [Re: Theo Gallus]
Omaha Offline
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Ok, I'll try to put this down in pictures. This first one is how the pond should look once the excavation is complete. That half circle going into the pond is our camp jetty, where we will likely spend the majority of our time. Lots of plans for that, but for the time being, the swimming area. Just off the east side of that jetty.



This is what I really wanted, but it's obviously very large, possibly unnecessarily so, and thus, much more expensive.



Here is the less expensive option. Less room, but possibly still feasible for what we want. A nice swimming area for the kids. Like everyone here, I have so many ideas for this area, volleyball, rope swing, etc. and I want to make sure that I don't short change ourselves and end up with a less than desirable swimming area.



So I guess what I'm asking, my latest question anyway , generally how big do you want to go? This is a 2/3 acre pond. My son and his friends love to swim probably more than anything else. I want to make sure there's enough room for them to enjoy themselves (while I fish ;)).

Anyway, I could use some "If I was you..." type answers.
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#185747 - 10/01/09 09:33 AM Re: Building a sand beach [Re: Omaha]
ewest Offline
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Is there a water inlet just north/top (end of pic). I am concerned that silt does not wash in on the beach. I would check other fill options. Sand on top of gravel works well and cuts the rock amount down a bunch. Pea gravel costs too much and larger size hurts the feet. Big gravel covered with sand may be an option. White sand (masonry) not red road sand. Rock gets slippery over time with growth and or silt , sand does not. Sand can be raked to clean it up rock no so easily.
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