Pond Boss
Posted By: Mike Whatley New 1/4 acre pond - 04/27/18 05:22 PM
Ok, here goes. My apologies up front for a lengthy post.

This pond is about 1 1/2 years old. It was dug on a 1.5 acre lot as a borrow pit to build my house on in SW La. Maximum depth is 12ft with virtually no subsurface structure. Mainly just a bowl with steep sides and one small area that has a slightly shallower grade. It has a 6 inch overflow pipe as an exit, but the inflow is coming from natural runoff from my and adjacent properties. Due to building my house I didn't have an opportunity to build any artificial structure or cover.

Upon initial filling the water soon took on a nice green color and had about 18 inches of visibility. Then came hurricane Harvey and 56 inches of flood water over the top of the pond that stayed for a week.

Prior to the flood, the pond had self propagated with GSF, bullheads, and a variety of minnows. After the flood the nice green water was tannic brown and stayed that way until just recently. I'm guessing the spring rains have flushed it out a bit. Now I have an algae bloom that's reduced the visibility to less than a foot and is pea soup in color, but I think it's only at the suface.

My idea for the pond was to stock it with CNBG, FHM, AND CC since all can be attained from a local hatchery. I'm willing to live with the GSF and Bullhead if I can keep them under control. I've seen as many as 100 of the BHC ranging from 12 inch adults to finglerings down to about 3 inches. I've placed a crab trap in the pond baited with fish pellets to try to catch some of those bullheads, so far unsuccessfully.

I've spend many hours here and elsewhere trying to get my mind wrapped around what I need to do with this pond, but to be honest, the more I read the more confused I'm getting, with Ph, alkalinity dissolved oxygen, so forth and so on. I've found an aerator system that will operate at 12 feet with a single diffuser that I intend to install as soon as the budget allows and hope that will help get the water straightened out.

Is there anything I can do in the meantime to get this algae bloom under control? My budget is limited presently so I've considered buying a bale of wheat straw and spreading it in the pond (barley isn't available here) but I hate the idea of having all that straw sinking to the bottom and creating another problem.

The pond is very close to the house, so esthetics is pretty important, but I want this pond to be viable and productive. Not a big fan of dyes either.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Posted By: Matzilla Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 04/27/18 06:25 PM
bait your bullhead trap with canned dog or cat food with some holes punched in it - keep moving the trap around until you catch them. You'll end up with some gsf in the trap from time to time

aeration should help with the heavy algae bloom a bit
Posted By: Mike Whatley Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 04/27/18 06:47 PM
I've been considering doing just that. I haven't seen the catfish do much feeding on the pellets, but a lot of the GSF and minnows have gotten the idea. With the bloom being what is, their feeding has deminished somewhat lately. I think my population of minnows is mixed between mosquito fish, common river minnows, and something else I haven't been able to ID. They've got a redish tail and are a bit larger than the mosquito fish and some have black vertical stripping. I'm hoping they aren't baby Choupique (Bowfin).
Posted By: Quarter Acre Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 04/27/18 06:53 PM
Welcome to the club, you have come to the right place. I'm a bit of a novice here, but I can tell you that the GSF and BHC are typically an undesired fish to have in a pond. They reproduce more than most and eventually overpopulate the pond and their growth stunts due to too much competition for food.

I am very curious how you ended up with both in the pond. If it was from flooding high waters then it may be something you have to live with and manage the best you can. If not, and it was some fluke, like a neighbor kid sneaking in and stocking your pond for you then that would be a different matter. I am going to bet that most advise would be to kill the pond and start over with your desired species so long as the likelihood of getting the BHC and GSF back in the pond is minimal.

Otherwise, if you don't want to kill the pond, you should consider stocking some LMB along with the CNBG and CC along with removing as many of the BHC and GSF. These stocked fish should be large enough that your existing populations can't eat them. The LMB should help control the GSF, BHC, and CNBG recruitment. They are eating machines. A common thought for small ponds is that they are not easily managed for big LMB, so, you use the LMB to eat the young of that year (YOY) so that your populations don't get out of hand. You don't want the LMB to get so big that they eat your larger CNBG so you remove any that get over 13 inches or so.

Anyhow, food for thought. I struggled with the thought of my 1/4 acre pond getting overpopulated and decided to go a totally different route involving HBG, RES, and HSB...not near as much recruitment, but feeding becomes more important.

I am very interested in your green water concerns because I went something similar last year. It went away on it's own after a early summer rain flushed the pond.
Posted By: Quarter Acre Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 04/27/18 06:57 PM
Here's a quick read on my green water last year...

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=35937&Number=470475#Post470475
Posted By: Mike Whatley Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 04/28/18 12:17 AM
Hey Noel.

Yeah, I've considered killing the pond and starting from scratch.

The first fish we saw in the pond were prior to the flood. Both BHC and GSF had shown up. My guess is birds transplanted them as we live on the edge of swamp bottom near the Sabine river. Just a couple hundred yards from a bayou. I'm sure some also swam in with the flood water, just as some swam out. There's no telling what may be lurking down there. I removed a river eel about 2 feet long last weekend.

This area has never been prone to flooding in the past, but has flooded twice in two years. Prior to that, not in over 20.

That reason alone has me apprehensive about spending a lot of money on fish. I can catch CC and LMB to transplant so my intent is buy CNBG and FHM and fish the crap out of the BHC and GSF. You know us cajuns will eat anything!!

The color of the pond has improved slightly today and there's three BHC swimming in a cooler right now. One about 10". I'll keep them there till I have a mess and give them a grease bath! They're not bad eating when their small.

I failed to mention earlier that I built 6 wire baskets and stuffed them full of straw. Don't know if it's near enough to do much good. They've been in the water just a few days. I figure I have around 265k gallons of water so 6 small pillows wont make much impact. Probably need the better part of a bale to do any good, but that's a lot of grass floating around and sinking to the bottom. I'm wondering if anyone here has had much luck with this technique and hope they'll weigh in with some info.
Posted By: Mike Whatley Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 04/28/18 12:43 AM
Just read your attached post Noel. My water is nearly that brilliant green. Maybe I'm being too anal...lol. Still, the visibility needs to be better.
Posted By: Mike Whatley Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 04/28/18 01:11 AM
Correction....ISN'T nearly that
Posted By: Mike Whatley Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 04/28/18 12:47 PM
Ive been doing some more reading here this morning regarding aeration, and as is typical for me, I've confused myself yet again.

I am intending to install an aerayion system, but my main reasoning for it, besides providing a less stratifide ecosystem, was to help with water clarity. Is my thinking in this regard going astray? Will aeration improve clarity or will it not? Where we are, we typically always have some wind, so the water in this pond is almost always moving to some degree, but at 12' deep and being a bowl, is it moving enough with natural influences to keep the bottom water from becoming stratified. I'm pretty sure it isn't, as I have witnessed it turn over, so destratification, in my mind will be accomplished with a diffuser centrally located on the bottom of the pond.

But back to my main question here....will it help with clarity? Being a new pond its devoid of any vegetation except around the bank, where some emergent grasses have started to take hold.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 04/28/18 01:31 PM
I wouldn't worry about the GSF. They only spawn annually and will never be a real problem. I have a forage pond with a bunch of them in it. I don't hesitate to seine and xfer them to my larger pond.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 04/28/18 01:43 PM
Wait for it... "It Depends" smile Bottoms diffusers are designed to turn the water over and expose the bottom layer of water to the atmosphere where it will take on O2. Makes most all the water in a pond livable. As I understand it, it will improve the water quality, but I have experienced a diffuser kicking up some detritus along with some dirt from the bottom of the pond. But, I have also seen it clear up a dense bloom faster than without having aeration. Mr. Lusk has said in his facebook sessions that in a small pond it would be wise to have both bottom diffuser along surface aeration. I am no expert but have some experience with bottom diffusers. Hope this helps out a little.

PS, never read or remember reading where Wheat straw helps to clear green water, but have read where Barley might help.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 04/28/18 06:40 PM
Keep your LMB numerous and mostly in the 8"-14" sizes and you will not have to worry about lots of GSF and bullheads. Feed them pellets and the GSF and BHC will be larger and add to the harvestable fish. BH when common could keep the water slightly turbid. The green bloom will minimize the chance of submerged weeds and filamentous pond scum (FA).

I Louisiana a 12' deep pond will definitely stratify at a level of around 6-8ft. For 1/43 ac, bottom aeration with one two head diffuser in the section 7+ft will elimiate stratification. If you monitor the water column temperatures in mid-summer you might get buy with aeration for 6-10 hrs per day if the system is designed properly.
Posted By: Mike Whatley Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 04/28/18 09:48 PM
Right now, BHC are definitely the most common fish in the pond. I've got 6 swimming in a cooler right now ranging from 6 to 13 inches in about a hour's time. I've seen as many as three schools simultaneously of approximately 30 fish each from 3 to 6 inches long hovering just below the surface at mid day.

The GSF that I can positively ID are ranging from 2 to 6 inches. I haven't caught any of the larger fish but have seen a few around the banks. The smaller fish are numerous.

I've gotten a quote on an aerator system with a single diffuser that will operate in 12 feet that I felt was reasonably priced. Won't say from who, but I think they're fairly reputable.

My plan is to drop the diffuser dead center on the bottom and set it up on a timer to run 8 - 12 hrs overnight. The way my property is laid out, shade starts onto the surface around 3:30pm. As it continues to cover the pond I know the oxygen level will start to decline. Having it run at night should keep the oxygen level balanced and not be constantly stirring up the bottom. Hopefully, this will help with the turbidity.

If I'm thinking wrong about this I hope someone will get me straightened out. Thanks to everyone who have replied thus far. It's greatly appreciated.
Posted By: Mike Whatley Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 04/28/18 10:59 PM
Right now, BHC are definitely the most common fish in the pond. I've got 6 swimming in a cooler right now ranging from 6 to 13 inches in about a hour's time. I've seen as many as three schools simultaneously of approximately 30 fish each from 3 to 6 inches long hovering just below the surface at mid day.

The GSF that I can positively ID are ranging from 2 to 6 inches. I haven't caught any of the larger fish but have seen a few around the banks. The smaller fish are numerous.

TGW1...
I knew it was just a matter of time before the "It Depends" would flung out there...lol. Just like no two bodies are the same.

Regarding using wheat straw, from what I've read and been told, it will work, just not as effectively as Barley. Maze stalks have also been tried with limited success. I'm not a big fan of using a bunch of chemicals, and a bale of wheat straw at the local coop is $15. Not sure what it would cost to treat 265,000 gallons of water.

I've gotten a quote on an aerator system with a single diffuser that is rated to operate in 12 feet that I felt was reasonably priced. Won't say from who, but I think they're fairly reputable.

My plan is to drop the diffuser dead center on the bottom and set it up on a timer to run 8 - 12 hrs overnight. The way my property is laid out, shade starts onto the surface around 3:30pm. As it continues to cover the pond I know the oxygen level will start to decline. Having it run at night should keep the oxygen level balanced and not be constantly stirring up the bottom. Hopefully, this will help with the turbidity.

If I'm thinking wrong about this I hope someone will get me straightened out. Thanks to everyone who have replied thus far. It's greatly appreciated.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 04/29/18 11:47 AM
Mike, it's kinda of fun saying "it Depends" lol And it really does come into play when talking about diffusers and how or what they do for a pond, or at least my pond. And as far as the Wheat straw, like I said I don't remember reading about wheat straw because my CRS seems to be getting worse smile Best wishes with your pond!
Posted By: Mike Whatley Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 04/29/18 02:22 PM
Morning Tracy,
There's a couple of different studies, mostly done in Europe, regarding the use of Barley straw in ponds. There hasn't been anything done specifically using Wheat that I know of, but a couple of the reports I found said that other straws could be used, especially where Barley isn't available, but their effectiveness isn't as pronounced as with Barley because of their chemicle make-up. While you can purchase the small brick sized bundles of barley on-line (they're not cheap considering the amount you get), they're primarily intended for use in small decorative type ponds used for Koi. It would cost a small fortune to get enough to be of any use in a 1/4 acre pond 12 foot deep.

I was out at the pond last night and again this morning and have noticed a lite scummy like film on the surface. Almost silvery in color when light hits it. I'm thinking it may be pollen, but at this point...who knows. The clarity this morning is maybe 12" using a white coffee mug. I collected a jar of water last night and brought it inside and away from sunlight to see if anything settles on the bottom or if its locked in suspension. It has a light green tint to it but is transparent currently.

That brings up another question, regarding lime. Currently the runoff coming into my pond from outlying properties is funneled thru a very shallow ditch. I purposely allow my neighbors runoff to flow thru to keep him from flooding when we get alot of rain. I'm wondering if I filled that ditch in with fist sized limestone, would that help by 1) Filtering any sediment coming from the runoff and 2) dispursing small amounts of lime into the pond as the runoff flows thru the rock. It would be a maintainance issue, having to periodically pull the rock out and cleaning it up so the water could flow freely, and spraying round-up at strategic times to kill any weeds that will grow in the rock. Has anyone ever done this or know someone who has, and if so, what were the results?
Posted By: Mike Whatley Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 04/30/18 01:44 AM
Update on the jar test...
After 24 hours the water has particles of some kind just suspending in the column. A light greenish gold clear color, but absolutely no sediment collecting on the bottom. I'm guessing some kind of an algae. Question is...what now? Is this condition ok? Do i need to treat it? What other parameters do I need to be looking at?
Posted By: Mike Whatley Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 04/30/18 11:54 PM
2nd update...
Its been nearly 48 hours since I started the jar test. Suspended particles still exist and clarity hasn't changed, however, now there's a green almost FA looking accumulation on the suface of the water. Visibility on the pond has improved, but the wind blown end now has that same FA looking scum piled against the bank.

Suggestions PLEASE!!!!
Posted By: Mike Whatley Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 05/03/18 08:36 PM
Ok....maybe I'm being too anal and just need to let the pond do its thing. A week ago, visibility was at less than 10 inches. Today, it measures 29" (measured using a white mug dangled from a pole). I haven't done a thing during that time. The water has now become more green than turbid throughout with exception to the north side, which is blanketed along the bank with a light green skum like coating which I believe is pollen. Doesnt look like any FA I've ever encountered.

About two weeks ago I placed 6 wire pillow type baskets approx. 24" long x 12" circumference, stuffed with wheat straw and a piece of styrofoam, and on the last mowing, decided to knock down the plant growth around the edge. It was close to waist high before i took it down to about a foot. The cuttings were all over the surface at one time, but now are mainly just around the edge and are still green. Other than just a few remaining cuttings, the surface is completely clear. No FA at all. Other than these factors nothing has been done. No rain in over 10 days. In two week's time, its gone from 18" to less than 10, then back to 29.

I have ordered a wide range ph test kit so I'll be able to monitor the balance soon.

Can anyone offer some possible antidotes as to what may have caused this swing in visibilty?
Posted By: John Fitzgerald Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 05/03/18 11:38 PM
Sometimes clay ponds clear on their own when there is no rain for several days. Mine tend to do the same thing. It varies. Sometimes visibility is 10 feet in mid winter, decreasing to about 1.5 to two feet in spring and summer. You probably have a plankton bloom going. Two different ponds adjacent to each other can easily have different clarity levels.
Here's a Google earth pic from 3-13-18. They were a little bit low then.

Attached picture Ponds 3-13-18.png
Posted By: Mike Whatley Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 05/04/18 02:09 PM
After closer inspection of the wind blown side of the pond, I've come to the conclusion that what's floating on top is some kind of algae. Being it is concentrated to that one side, it would be easy to eradicate with some kind of algaecide. Can I use the stuff that Home Depot sells for pools or is there something else I should be using?
Posted By: John Fitzgerald Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 05/04/18 02:35 PM
The pool algae killer will likely kill your fish, and would not be approved for ponds.
Posted By: Mike Whatley Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 05/04/18 04:08 PM
So what should I use and where can I get it? Would the local feed store carry something?
Posted By: John Fitzgerald Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 05/04/18 05:21 PM
The feed store might carry something, or could order it, and probably their manager could counsel on its use. If your algae problem is minor, it's probably best to leave it be.
Posted By: Quarter Acre Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 05/04/18 08:52 PM
Mike, if what you have floating in your pond is FA (filamentous algae) of some sort, it is on it's dying/decaying portion of it's cycle and will be sinking soon. That stuff tends to start it's life by growing on the bottom. Once it starts to fade away it begins to decay and the gasses will get trapped in the tangles and float it to the surface.

It would be best to rake it out and compost it or dispose of it somewhere so that it's nutrients don't wash back into the pond.

The following link will take you to a thread that is in the "Common Pond Q&A" section and will give you plenty of reading on the subject...

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92633#Post92633

Since photo bucket changed their rules regarding the sharing of photo, the above link will be missing a lot of pictures, but there is still plenty of learning available in the text.
Posted By: Mike Whatley Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 05/04/18 09:49 PM
It's not FA. Looks more like a bright green scum. No fibrous content at all. I found an algaecide at the feed store and just finished spraying where it's accumulated on the north bank. Made sure to not over spray so I didn't stress what fish I have.

When this stuff first comes to the surface it resembles an oil slick then turns green after a while. Did the same thing in a jar test. It's just splotchy on the surface but you can see it everywhere.

I really need to get an aerator system to keep the water well mixed....I think.
Posted By: Mike Whatley Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 05/04/18 09:57 PM
Guess I got that backwards. Just walked the pond after about an hour of spraying. The green is gone and now it's just that oil sheen, so I guess what I'm seeing out in the middle is the stuff that's already died on its own... go figure.
Posted By: Mike Whatley Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 05/05/18 07:23 PM
Today I picked up a pool test kit. Gathered a sample from about 18 inches at pond side using my coffee mug on a stick, making sure to try to flush it around a bit to get water from that depth. The litmus stick shows ph at 7.2 at 30 seconds, alkalinity measures 40ppm read at 40 seconds and hardness was 0 after 50 seconds. Is that even possible??!!!!??

We got a little rain this morning, probably not more than 1/2 inch, if that. It was enough to knock down what dead algae was still floating on top and my visibility is still 29 inches. Skies are partly cloudy now, with intermitent strong sunlight. Reading was taken at 2pm.
Posted By: Mike Whatley Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 05/05/18 07:23 PM
Today I picked up a pool test kit. Gathered a sample from about 18 inches at pond side using my coffee mug on a stick, making sure to try to flush it around a bit to get water from that depth. The litmus stick shows ph at 7.2 at 30 seconds, alkalinity measures 40ppm read at 40 seconds and hardness was 0 after 50 seconds. Is that even possible??!!!!??

We got a little rain this morning, probably not more than 1/2 inch, if that. It was enough to knock down what dead algae was still floating on top and my visibility is still 29 inches. Skies are partly cloudy now, with intermitent strong sunlight. Reading was taken at 2pm.
Posted By: Mike Whatley Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 05/06/18 12:14 PM
Took another reading this morning. PH dropped to below 6. ALK was 0, as was hardness. I expected the drop in PH, but the drop in ALK suggests I probably need some lime. Shouldn't it be staying relatively constant?
Posted By: Mike Whatley Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 05/07/18 02:27 AM
I've found both pulverized yard lime (Timberline Soil Doctor) as well as a granulated lime at the local Lowes for prices much more tolerable for bag lime than getting it from my neighborhood feed store. Being that this pond is only 1/4 acre surface, I'm thinking 10-12 bags of the powdered lime, applied directly to the surface water, as well as a couple bags of the pelletized lime, poured into the inflow as well as spread over my lawn where rain would let it filter into the pond over time. My lawn needs help too, as this area is all sand/clay that came out of the pond. My thinking is the powdered will give me the more immediate reaction I need, while the granulated will give me a more time released influx with runoff.

Does this sound like a plan that would work? I dont think I need a ton of lime, but to get bulk, I'll have to get a lot more than that. Bag lime is really my only option.
Posted By: Mike Whatley Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 06/29/18 02:13 AM
I haven't done much with the pond lately. Last thing was to put some sheetrock pieces in baskets to try to bring up my hardness. I now realize thats going to take a long time with no more than I'm putting out at one time. Most of the first batch is completely disolved now so its time for a fresh batch. My Alk is better since liming and the PH is staying relatively stable, but my hardness is still crap.

All this brings me to my next question in pond chemistry....that being in regard to visibilty in the heat of the summer. After the last tropical event a couple weeks ago, the water stayed clear even with almost 9 inches of rain and I'm seeing the visibility get deeper by the day. I'm guessing its close to 4' now, maybe more. I need to measure it to be sure. I've got some decent plant growth starting to take hold around the edge and have noticed what looks like green algae starting to thinly cover some of the shallows (probably FA) but the water itself just keeps getting clearer. Surface is probably 3/4 covered by that slimy scum looking stuff. Color is still dark greenish brown and surface temps are in the mid 90s by mid day. Is this clarity normal for this time of year or should I be concerned?
Posted By: Mike Whatley Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 07/07/18 01:40 PM
Took some readings this morning on the pond and haven't seen any changes in AK or HARDNESS. 40/0 respectively. PH this morning was 7.8, and morning readings seem to be slowly getting higher as time passes. I added 500# of ag lime several weeks ago and after a couple of weeks these are the AK/HARDNESS readings I got as well, so it looks like I definitely need more lime, so the plan is to add another 500# soon. The sheetrock experiment isn't giving me any possitive results with hardness so gypsum may need to be included to boost the hardness.

1)How do I determine how much gypsum I need to include (if any), and what should my hardness target be for best results in managing PH? Not concerned about clearing the water as my color and visibility are, IMO, very good for this time of year, (olive green and 28").
2)Is this the route I should be persuing, or is there another path to increasing hardness I've not discovered?
Posted By: snrub Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 07/07/18 02:18 PM
I learned something about sheetrock the other day. Having some new scraps from my daughters house build thought I would dump some on the top of a newly created rock pile I had established in 6 feet lf water.

With the telehandler I extended out a pile of sheetrock to the rock pile location 25 feet from the bank and dumped it over it. Despite the word "rock" included in the word "sheetrock", sheetrock acts nothing like rocks do in water. It floats.

To my chagrin I watched the floatilla of sheet rock be blown by the wind over to my dock, float under it, and deposit itself on the north shore of the pond.


So I got to pick the sheetrock up off the bank.

I left a few pieces in just to see how long it took to waterlog and sink. Been about a week. Still floating. Fish love it. Wife was sympathetic but was still not impressed with the looks of floating sheetrock blown around by the wind floating on the pond.

Of course I did not test the idea with a single sheet. I loaded up a quarter pickup load.

Sometimes I wonder about myself. I just have to laugh. Getting mad does not help.
Posted By: JKS3613 Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 07/07/18 02:44 PM
That's funny. I can so see myself doing the exact same thing!
Posted By: Mike Whatley Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 07/07/18 05:16 PM
When I did the sheetrock experiment I had some dividers that come out from between stacks for transport. Same material, just cut into 3 inch strips and laminated about four strips thick. I broke these up into pieces and put it in wire baskets that were anchored with railroad spikes. Tied them off to stakes so I can retrieve. Some sank within a hour, some stayed afloat till the next day. After about two weeks I pulled them up and the only thing left in the baskets was the paper. No change to the water chemistry at all. Not even around the areas the baskets were put out. Only thing I can tell it did was rust the galvanized wire.
Posted By: Mike Whatley Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 07/07/18 05:25 PM
The pond has very little circulation. Not even wind. The surface moves around some, but it never sees any wave action. Not even high wind affects it much. I'm thinking all the gypsum did was dissipate onto the bottom immediately around where it leached out of the baskets on the bottom, I'm thinking at around 6 foot deep.
Posted By: ballkiddy Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 11/05/18 10:39 PM
I too have a new .25 pond that I'm stocking starting this week. Its about .30 acre for those of you keeping score. Im putting some hybrid blue gill in this Wednesday, I think about 250, then 5 lbs of minnows. Next spring I want to add 100 CC, but people are advising against it. Then I was told I need to add 25 LMB to keep things in check, but could prolly use a hybrid striper in its place. I do have a nice fountain I made from a harbor freight pump with some plumbing along the ponds floor, then a brass head and 2 inch PVC. Makes a lovely shower about 8 feet tall. Should the fountain run all the time? The fountain does count as aeration, right? We are going to swim and fish in the pond. What are the draw backs for the CC? why are people telling me to skip them?
Posted By: John Fitzgerald Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 11/05/18 10:59 PM
100 CC is too many for your pond. About 30-40 would be better.
Posted By: canyoncreek Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 11/05/18 11:38 PM
Most would advise putting the forage in first and giving it time to reproduce (many types of forage, FHM only one type possible) and then when forage has a foothold add the hungry mouths. However, you have to first decide what is the forage backbone of your pond and this is determined by your 'growing season' in TX and also what your predator or predators will be.

Unless you like to eat (repeatedly keep up on harvesting) CC I read of very few people on this forum who are happy that they stocked CC. If it isn't something you will fish aggressively for to remove then you should be careful to think about the future.

Many in Tx find that tilapia are the backbone of their forage when they are trying to feed LMB. If you want a LMB fishery then there are many experts who can tell you how many BG or HBG to stock, how many TP, and when.

Here in a northern pond nothing grows or reproduces if you stock it now so it is kind of a moot point if you stock now or in the spring if your pond is empty.

Also predation and balance is way different now when I assume you have no vegetation (a new barren pond) compared to if you put forage in that could be eaten by predators but you balance that out by having plenty of vegetation for the forage to hide in.

As for the surface spray, this helps the top few inches move/exchange gas and can help in summer but you can't call it effective aeration unless it is moving the water on the bottom. If you are in the high heat district in TX you may need both.

Posted By: ballkiddy Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 11/06/18 02:34 PM
That's great information, thanks! We do love fishing for and eating CC, so I think it would be a good option for us. So that's my plan, im going to stock the HBG tomorrow along with my minnow, give them til next spring before the 40 CC and 10-15 LMB. You're right on the plant life, the floor of the pond is barren. We did go above and beyond however on artificial structure in the pond. I made several PVC trees, a few mil crates turned upside down and mounted to the pier, plastic barrels with small slots cut in them for the little fish, its like a giant aquarium out there! Are my numbers about right? 250 HBG and 5lbs of minnows? Dang fish truck said 500 HBG but I know they want to sell fish.
Posted By: ballkiddy Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 11/06/18 02:41 PM
also, will the CC reproduce? is that why its key to fish for and remove them? Fish truck telling me they wont spawn. So is it something that I have to replenish every couple of years?
Posted By: canyoncreek Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 11/06/18 04:16 PM
Many have HOPED CC wouldn't spawn and commonly the CC found a way to do so. I don't have CC but from what I have read if they can find a cavity (even a animal hole in the bank, or a hole in a tree, or a hole in one of your PVC structures or barrels) they will spawn.

Also what is your goal for the bluegill/bass ratio?
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 11/06/18 04:46 PM
I have them in my 5 ac. Pond for 4 years and they are 5-7 lb and haven’t spawned to my knowledge yet. The bull heads have on the other hand. So it’s probably a hit or miss thing. I have at least one ac of flooded creek bottom with trees. I have a friend with a 5/8 ac pond and his did spawn. Stocked the same time as mine and from the same supplier..... so who knows....
Posted By: Quarter Acre Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 11/06/18 04:52 PM
I think you are light on the HBG. They may not be able to reproduce enough to feed the population of LMB and CC. Most folks will use regular BG with LMB. Consider using HSB instead of the LMB, or using BG instead of HBG. The actual numbers and types really depend on if you are trying to grow large panfish or challenging your small pond to grow large LMB.

I did not notice in the thread if you are planning on pellet feeding and adding aeration. These also have an impact on stocking numbers and types of fish.

I have stocked 500 HBG, 100 RES (don't forget them for snail control), and 40 HSB in my 1/4 acre pond with air and pellets. Here is the quick success story for my first year. Please do not think I am trying to sway you on your stocking plans, I am only in my fist year, but it has been a good one.
Posted By: snrub Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 11/06/18 04:54 PM
There are two things that I can think of that affect CC recruitment. I do have recruitment in all year classes in my main pond, by the way.

First is CC require a cavity to spawn. So if you want them to spawn put something in the pond they can use as a cavity. An old milk can, tractor or truck tire, an overturned stump that they can excavate under, a concrete slab perched on another concrete slab so there is an overhang with a protected area. In nature CC will find a hole under a tree that is undercut along side a stream or perhaps under a log in a log pile tree jam. They require someplace to protect their eggs. They need some sort of cavity for them to attempt to do that. If you don't want them to spawn (which is what most experts recommend - buy replacements as needed), don't put anything that remotely could be made into a cavity by the CC.

The second step in having CC recruitment is for the newly hatched fry to survive. Catfish form balls of fry that stay together for "protection in numbers" till they reach maybe an inch in length. They are very vulnerable to being picked off by predators. So even if you have a CC spawn, if your pond has a normal amount of predators (LMB, ect) none of the CC fry may survive. That is probably why the guy that sold you the fish said you would need to buy more.

In my case I had plenty of different things CC could use as spawning cavities (all of the above I mentioned) plus my LMB population has not done all that well with no LMB recruitment of any significance for the last three years. So in my case I had the conditions that favored CC recruitment. I have gotten my LMB numbers up this year by raising some fingerlings up to 12" in another pond and transferring them to my main pond. So I am curious now to see if the LMB prevent any more CC recruitment or if I still get new YOY CC next year. I like a small amount of CC recruitment but I have enough in my pond right now to last me the next two or three years if I don't get any more.

So as you can see, asking if you will get CC recruitment, the answer is "it depends". You can do certain management things that will either enhance your chances of CC recruitment or diminish them, depending on what you want.

With a quarter acre pond, the safest would be to manage to not have recruitment. Having said that, If you really like CC (my wife and I do for food) and are willing to feed them artificial feed and are willing to harvest to manage the population then having recruitment does not have to be a bad thing. It has not been for us. It just kind of depends on what your goals are. You can raise a lot of CC in a quarter acre if you feed them and aerate the pond. (and keep the otters out as John F on this forum will tell you. They about wiped his CC pond out)

BH catfish do not require cavities to spawn. They will spawn on a mud bottom. But a good LMB population is supposed to pretty much extirpate any reproduction also. That appears to be the case in my old refurbished pond. Used to have BH that were thick enough to be a nuisance catching so many small ones (that is the only pond that has BH). Now that the LMB population is there, hardly ever catch a BH.
Posted By: ballkiddy Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 11/06/18 05:20 PM
we are down with Catfish here in Lufkin. I have a huge (20 ft by 3 ft) hollow oak log staked to the bottom of the pond that's going to make a perfect nesting hole for the CC. I haven't bought any fish yet, but will be getting the HBG in the morning. I don't currently have aeration besides my fountain (which is just surface) but will definitely add some if you guys recommend. We plan of feeding the fire out of them. That's the part we are looking forward to the most. I'm not married to the LMB, but I was told I'd need a few to clean up the inferior offspring of the HBG. I think that the HBG and CC would be great if I don't need something else. Do you think 400 HBG is too many? I was thinking that I would add the CC and maybe 25 LMB is the spring, but I could do hybrid bass instead.
Posted By: snrub Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 11/06/18 06:49 PM
I'll let others with more expertise make the numbers of what recommendations. But I will make a few comments on feeding and aeration.

I think in a small pond where you want high production and high catch rates, the HBG and CC is a great combo. Then whatever predators are needed to keep the trash cleaned up. I really like the HBG in my pond. Since the water has cooled, the BG have become rather stuck up and persnickety about what I present to them as bait. But the HBG just keep biting. If you like to catch fish in numbers and frequency, HBG fit the bill.

The more you "push" a pond, the more the management of it becomes important. The more you use artificial feed, the more important aeration is. The more you do both those things, the more important it is to keep doing them.

By adding feed you will add to the total overall carrying capacity of the pond. More fish per acre. By adding aeration in hot weather you diminish the effects of a thermocline developing so you make the lower water in the pond that was formerly not useful in the summer for fish to live in now additional volume the fish can utilize. So feed increases the carrying capacity and summer aeration increases carrying capacity.

It also means that if either one stops suddenly (most particularly aeration in the heat of the summer) you suddenly have too many fish for too little feed and livable water area. So it is important once you start pushing the limits on the ponds capacity to produce you need to make sure the systems keep going. Otherwise it can turn into a wreck (fish kill).

Harvest is also an important part of that to keep the fish carrying capacity at suitable levels. The more you feed, the more CC will need to be harvested. I started running into some water quality issues once I got around 5# of feed per acre per day so I backed off to 3# or so. I have heard Bill Cody say that over 10# feed per acre per day can cause problems. Commercial ponds go much higher than that but they have systems in place to monitor the water closely and emergency procedures should things go wrong. Those are just some numbers to give you some idea of potential feed costs and what you might do in your own pond.
Posted By: Quarter Acre Re: New 1/4 acre pond - 11/06/18 07:11 PM
I forgot to link my thread for your reference...

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=38025&Number=494998#Post494998
© Pond Boss Forum