Hello,
I am a first time poster but long time reader of this forum. I have a 4 acre pond that is approximately 40 years old and has not been managed. I have heard tales of large LMB the size of a small child and BG that could snap 15lb test like it was silly string.

I have come to the conclusion that these initial observations were a bit exaggerated. My own conclusions are a lot more realistic I believe.

First, I found in June of this year, an abundance of small skinny bass. This led me to believe that I have a stunted bass situation. No bass had been harvested for several years prior. The results have been skinny bass 10-12in long and prolific BG in all ranges but the 2-3in range.

Second, someone has in the distant or recent past, introduced white crappie to the pond. From what information I have gathered, crappie can be detrimental to smaller ponds due to irregular reproductive cycles. According to the Alabama Dept of Conservation, crappie really need a larger impoundment to be successful. Usually, 25 acres or better.

Here is what I have done so far:

1. I have begun harvesting LMB's. Since July 1st of this year, I have taken 91 bass from the pond all in the 10-12in range.

2. I had a pond sample tested and found alkalinity to be at 20ppm, so I added 27 tons of ag lime to the pond in preparation for a fertilization program.

3. I began a fertilization program to increase pond productivity. Prior to fertilization, water clarity was at approximately 10ft. Currently, since ceasing fertilization in October, the clarity is at 36".

4. I started a BG feeding schedule. Many BG are in the 10-12oz range, the largest weighed in at 14oz so far. I have ceased the feeding due to cooler water temps and lesser feeding activity.

5. I have introduced 20 grass carp to control moss and algae. They have doubled in size since their introduction in July.

6. I have been removing access vegetation, namely lily pads, from around the pond banks to make it easier for the LMB to capture small BG. There is still plenty of structure for the BG and LMB.


Currently, I think this program has been working. I am still catching small bass, but they are no longer skinny. All bass I have caught in the last month have been over their optimum weights according to the chart by the American Fisheries Society.

My problem is clearing out the unwanted crappie. I have tried to catch out as many as I can, but I was wondering if there were other methods I have not tried that might be more effective?

Jay Haffner with the Ala Dept of Conservation said if I am a patient person, we could grow the LMB to the point where they could take care of the problem themselves. Trouble is, I am not that patient.

I have considered connecting a lead from a 6kw generator mounted on my jon boat and creating my own redneck shock boat. My wife asked that I up my life insurance before proceeding with this idea.

I was also wondering if the BCBG was capable of swallowing a 10in crappie? The only drawback to introduction of the Condello strain is possible predation on the LMB.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Hello Snapper and welcome to Pond Boss. Hang on and one of the experts will come along and weigh in on your situation. It sounds like you have a good start and have done a lot of homework already.

Glad you found us!

Welcome, SnapperHead!

You have done your homework. Good job.

Here's a couple of initial observations.

1. You're definitely off to the right start with your LMB harvest strategy. Things will continue to improve, possibly faster than you realize. If I were you I'd start to learn to identify the difference between a 1.5 lb LMB that is 5 years old, as opposed to a 1.5 lb LMB that is two years old. Shorty has got this down to a science and could be a great help to us in managing your pond.

2. White crappie can make excellent forage if you can create a situation where your predators are capable of eating them. The barn door's already been shut behind you, so without a complete removation this is your best bet.

3. Any chance of getting some of the local kids involved in WC harvest? Just wondering. Ray Scott has done stuff like this in regards to LMB management.

4. Do NOT rig up your own shocking boat. Now that we know you, we'd like you to post for the next few years.

5. Would anybody in your local government game commission consider setting trap nets for you to help control WC? Just thinking out loud.

Funny about the bluegill. I'm just hoping they don't ever turn on me.

Thanks Bruce and Jeff for the responses.

I am definitely interested in age identification of the LMB's. I'm not sure about this, but it would seem to me that a LMB that has stunted growth from lack of the right size forage might not be as aggressive a feeder as a youger bass not subject to these conditions. I think he might just keep chasing the smaller forage and not get with the program. NOTE: ANY BASS NOT WILLING TO GET WITH THE PROGRAM WILL BE EATEN!!!

I am recruiting all the crappie fisherman I can muster. I may have to start an incentive program. Like, for every five crappie caught, 10% off implants and an extra 60 seconds of gas from Dr. Bruce. (that would be dental implants btw)

I have not thought of trap nets. I will have to check into that.

It's a shame about the shock boat and the BCBG. I told my wife and don't know whether she was relieved or dissapointed.

I think that you will generally find that an older fish with a 12 inch body will have a head that is disproportional to it's body size. Eliminate it.

Balancing a pond containing crappie can be a character builder. The darn things are just too good at what they do. It seems that the 12 inch bass shouldn't be all that skinny in a pond with a lot of smaller crappie. What is the current crappie situation?

Well you're gonna fit right in here. Since you are new you probably are not yet aware that Dr. Condello is widely regarded as an expert in growing exceptionally large Blue Gill. Another member Dave in El Dorado grows gigantic Green Sun Fish. Bruce periodically holds his BG over a cutting board to "encourage" growth while DIED threats his GSF with a Swiss Army knife. Me on the other hand I murder forage base by throwing them to the wolves (LMB). Yep this pond meistering is not for the weak of heart.

I'm impressed! You're definitely a head of the eight ball as far as the average pond owner and you are doing everything you can which is good.

How about seining the shoreline? Can you get someone in with an electroshocker boat?

You are aware the grass carp rarely eat the "moss" or algae right? But they are good for control of macrophytes. Talapia are good algae eaters though.

Funny... we came to the same conclusion about my Uncle Cyrus.

Dave, so far all the crappie are between 10-12in. I can't tell how prolific they are at this point. According to angling efforts the bass are heavily outnumbering the crappie. I intend to keep the pressure up.

I also submerged a lifesize picture of Big Head Uncle Cyrus near known crappie hideouts. Several crappie, obviously with coronary conditions immediately gave up the ghost and floated to the surface.

Big Head Cyrus has also been known to cause frigidity in the female species. This should help reduce reproductive tendencies in further crappie generations.

Jeff, if you'll note my original post, I did inquire about Mr. C's mutated BG. I had hoped to introduce a few into the pond to eliminate my crappie problem. However, I just watched "Jaws" again on TV and have thought better of it.

Cecil, thanks for the compliments. That means a lot coming from you guys. I have had the shoreline seined. I contacted the state biologist for the Alabama Dept of Conservation and had him do a evaluation for me. The eval is free and he is paid by the State so he has no monetary interest.

He basically reinforced everything I was doing and have learned by reading articles and this forum. He did offer some interesting information though. Apparently, 2/3 of the public lakes in Alabama suffer from the same condition that my lake does. That is overpopulated and unharvested fish populations resulting in smaller and less healthy fish. Randall Scott's catch and release program has done more to hurt recreational fishing than 1000 P.E.T.A. protests.

As far as the shock boat is concerned, I abandoned my "generator on the jon boat" idea at Bruce's request.

My alternate plan has not had much success either. Seems I don't have enough extension cords and I'm running out of small appliances.

And Cecil, the only macrophytes I've seen are on pay per view. I got the carp to munch on the aquatic plantlife.

SH, it's amazing how many people build ponds and don't manage them with hook and line. It's not like it's work or anything.

I will assure you your shock boat is 100% safe for you if you let your BIL run it.

Cecil, btw, you were correct. I did say moss and algae in my original posting. I am truly sorry. I have an overabundance of lily pads and some other growth. I know the carp won't eat the adult lily pads, but I understand they will control any new sprouts.

I had tried manual removal, but that turned out to be a complete LOSER!! It gave me some sort of pond rash that itched like a fiberglass overcoat.

I have been using some applications of 24D along with the help of the carp and it is coming along nicely.

I do know this. Those carps are eatin something. Since their introduction in July that have doubled in size. I happened to catch one on a cricket with my ultralight. Dang thing nearly spooled me.

btw, I would still like to hear from Shorty or anyone who can tell me how to age LMB. I can't tell a YOY from a blue hair if they are the same size.

Little Help?

Here you go Snapper.

Awsome!! Thanks ewest. Just need a cross section of pectoral fin and a pair of binoculars to see the dang thing!

Use a LMB scale some food coloring and a microscope.

Snapperhead, you are definatley on the right track for managing for bigger LMB. Concentrate on culling your very abundant year classes of LMB, these will typically be slow growing and body conditions will be much thinner year round than other year classes with less competition for food. LMB over 16"-17" should be released even if that particular year class gets somewhat crowded down the road. Once LMB get to 16"-17" they start eating smaller young of the year LMB and they will help with your culling plan by thinning next years LMB hatch. They will eat significant number of young LMB up 6-8" in size. The more LMB over 16"-17"+ you have, the better. The other clue I look for is missing size classes of BG. You noted that you were missing BG in the 2-3" size range which tells me there are probably not many LMB over 12" in your pond. One of the problems we have had over the years is an absence of BG in the 2"-8" size range. Our LMB were typically hitting a wall in terms of growth at a 15-16" size range as they were trying to sustatin themselves on very abundant BG that were less than 2" long, they really need BG in the 3-6" to keep growing well. It may take up to 3 years of heavy culling to get a lasting change in the population dynamics of your pond.

Thanks Shorty,
I don't seem to be missing any size classes other than in the 2-3" range. I am in aggreement with you that an aggressive harvest program is my best bet at this time.

I was also thinking about stocking some talapia this spring at about 10lbs per acre to supplement forage over the coming year. I know they won't get out of control and their fecundity should provide an abundant forage base along with the BG.

what do you think?

Snapperhead,

A belated welcome to the forum from a couple hours north of you, I haven't been on the computer for a week.

Wow, this is a great thread, recapitulating a lot of info on bass growth and crappie control.

My only two cents [or less] worth-

I have a bass heavy, stunted pond similar to yours, which is finally coming around to a better balance. I've tried a bunch of things to bring this about, but the two things that really seem to work are very heavy harvest pressure on overrepresented classes of bass [which you're doing nicely] and the addition of tilapia. I got a lot of different recommendations on how many tilapia to add-I finally went with the one from Dr. Jeff Slipke, and put in 50 lbs per acre. That really seemed to do the trick-no weeds, and bass fattening up like crazy.

They will eat a lot of your BG feed, but they more than make up for that with reproduction, and taking some of the predatory pressure off the BG.

You can get them in our area for <$10.00/lb.

Wow! 50lbs per acre! Was that all brood stock? Or did that consist of smaller talapia that would suffer immediate predation by the LMB? Nashville has a little lower avg temp than Birmingham. Did any of your talapia survive the winter or do you just restock every spring?

OH, thanks for the welcome Yolk Sac. There are a bunch of great peeps on this forum with a bunch of great information. It seems I can't help but succeed.

I can get talapia in Hale county for 6.00/lb this spring. And I found a picture of the bass I have been catching just for reference.



notice the filet knife in the upper right... you know the rest of the story.

The bottom left fish sure does remind me of Big Head Uncle Cyrus.



My wife wanted a Bill Dance impersonation. Actually, this is a preliminary taste test just prior to evisceration.

The 50#/acre was all brood stock, seemed like a lot to me too, but Jeff was pretty insistent on a heavy stocking for a pond that's already way too bass heavy. I think he was right, I certainly have seen good bass growth, and no surplus of small tilapia. I think they all got et.

I'm losing my tilapia as we speak, no way they'll be here by the end of T day weekend. I can still see a few lolling about, but they're really slow, and haven't been feeding for a few weeks. I'd be surprised if they make it thru the winter in Birmingham; I grew up in Arizona, and even there, every couple years, we'd have a cold snap and all the tilapia in the golf club ponds would go belly up

I think I'll start with 20lbs per acre and check the effects. Until I get the crappie cleared out, I want to make sure nobody has to look hard for a meal. Of course, abundant forage may trigger a heavy spawn of WC.

Hmmm.. so many questions.. so few brain cells.

You'd be amazed what a harvest program can do, if thoughtfully applied. The body condition of almost any fish will completely take off as soon as the competition decreases. Then you have to start figuring out how to be creative with your harvest methods so you can continue to catch these healthier fish. It's a tough job, but somebody has to do it.

I agree wholeheartedly with you Bruce. IMHO a ongoing harvest program is the single most beneficial pond management tool you can implement. I have allready seen dramatic results using nothing but a rod and reel. Previously, skinny fishes are now plump and healthy. Of course, I am also plump and healthy.

And this happened in the span of 4 months!

The problem is ... I want to be a PONDMEISTER!!

So I must STOCK SUPPLEMENTAL FORAGE, WATCH DO AND PH LEVELS, AERATE OR DIFFUSE TO ELIMINATE STRATIFICATION, CONTROL FA AND UNWANTED EMERGENT OR SUBMERGENT VEGATATION, MONITOR GROWTH RATES, CORRECT IMBALANCES IN THE ECOSYSTEM, INSTITUTE FERTILIZATION PROGRAMS, MAINTAIN SUPPLEMENTAL FEEDING SCHEDULES, INTRODUCE ARTIFICIAL HABITAT, MONITOR WATER CLARITY, CHECK FOR DAM SEEPAGE AND HAVE FUN DOING IT!!!!

Sorry, I'm back

Think I need to go fishing

Oh Snapperhead, you ARE a PONDMEISTER! Our condolences.

Snapperhead; Good Start

Real good start.

Snapper since you are a Pondmeister you don't go fishing at the pond anymore. You now go to the pond to work. Work includes sampling surveys of several types one of which is creel surveys that are accomplished by hook and line. Of course there are many types of pond work as you mentioned but creel surveys and balancing by harvest sure do take up a lot of my time . The use of these terms seems to keep the questions from the non-pondmeisters (aka non fishermen) at a minimum but their eyes sure roll back in there heads when I start to explain what I am doing at the pond.

Ain't that the danged truth??

You know, I bet it would be nice to catch a fish without analyzing the darned thang.

Sorry peoples,
I have been out of town. Spent the last couple weeks at the Gulf Coast doing creel surveys. It was a tough job, but somebody had to do it.

I'm intending on transplanting some of these Gulf Coast Grass Carps to my pond.




I also wanted to bring back some of these Gulf trout, but they didn't survive the transport.






Oh well, there's still plenty of room in the freezer.

Nice Red!!!!

Did you catch that on the pier?

Yeah, the Reds are running this time of year. That one was 40" and 28lbs. We caught about 15 between 32-40in that week.

The spanish were caught the first week I was down there. We caught 497 spanish mackeral that week. I think I have tendonitis in my casting elbow.

It was great fun, but I'm glad to be back to my pond.

where ARE YOU!
I will take all the Black Crappie you can catch!

IndainPB,
I am in Birmingham, Al. All of the Crappie I have caught are white. I have nothing against the Black Crappie. I just haven't found any in my pond yet. Also, none of the crappie I have caught have made it past the supper table.

I keep looking in my mail for all your surplus crappie.....I know how to ahem, use them...have a nice pond.