I have a problem with carp in my lake built in 2012, (60+ acres). Did not put them in must have come down stream from one of the 20 ponds above my lake. There is probably no way to keep them out, so is there some way to control them. Was thinking of HSB, walleye or Yellow catfish or maybe bluecats. If I would put in large amounts of predators would they keep them under control. Have tried to get bass established but did not have much luck. What carp I can see are in the 5 to 20 lbs range. Have removed some with bow but no where near enough.

There is a drain for the lake but do not know if the state will let me open it to drain any water out, ( took three months to drain it last time it was drained). I would hate to go to all the trouble to drain it and then just end up back to where I am now. What I was hoping for was a pond with 2 to 5 lb bass, 1 lb blue gill and crappie and some larger cats to fish for when all you want to do is sit down with a drink and relax.
I can see down 3 feet and there is lots of moss already this year. Spring fed and it stays at full pool 10 months out of the year and only drops a foot in July and August. It also can hold back another 15 feet of water on large rains but drops back down in 7 to 10 days.

Nehunter, perhaps you could hold mini-fishing/bowhunting carp tournaments on your BOW.

Or, if the state allows, commercial carp fishermen might do a number on them.

Blue cats and flatheads would indeed eat carp, but they'd also chow down on your BG and LMB.

I have talked to some people and they told me you need to go bow hunting for them at night. But they did not know if that was anytime or just during the spawn.

You might try trot lines to thin the herd. I'd bait it with size 8 trebles with a good dough ball recipe and run the lines parallel to the shore 2 to 6 feet of water....go heavy on the line. They are incredibly strong. Hybrid Blue Cats might be an option for full time carp anglers to help keep recruitment down.

I'm in Nebraska and have a similar problem, but don't have near the water clarity you have. I've tried everything from a 100' seine, to trap nets to now I'm attempting a heavy stocking of blue cats. They aren't big enough yet to make a difference but will update as time progresses. I can speak from experience in a smaller pond that wipers won't impact them as much as you'd like.

Interestingly I ran across a thread here several years ago where a guy was attempting to use redears to control carp reproduction. I tried to contact him to get results of his strategy to no avail. So not sure if it had an impact or not. But Shorty and I had a conversation about this recently and he thinks there may be some validity to the strategy. Maybe he will stick his nose in this thread and give his thoughts.

Flatheads 15 pounds and up should control them. Your lake is big enough that flatheads should not take over. You could get on the Catfish1.com forum and ask for some in your area. Most of those guys catch and release the big ones. You might get some help unless yours is a pay lake.

If the water clarity allows bowfishing at night, that is what I would do, every night that the weather conditions allowed. Common carp come to the shallow areas to sleep at night, so they are relatively easy pickings.

The problem with putting predator fish in the pond that can eat large common carp is that they don't listen very will when you tell them to eat only carp. If a bass that they can eat is nearby, and they are hungry, they will eat it.

Well said Scott!

IMO Although FHC and/or BC can grow to a size to eat 10 pound+ carp, I would worry they take over and as apex predator and eat the desired fish. IMO, the best you can do is stock appropriate predators to limit recruitment of the carp. By appropriate, I mean predators that frequent the same depth and area of the lake as the carp. For example, HSB are known to prefer open water so they will probably rarely encounter carp and would not be an effective carp predator.

Large carp would then need to be left to either die of old age or be removed by angling, shooting, etc.

Just my 1 cent...

I recall that some years ago I joined some Fish and Game group for a netting expedition on Utah Lake. We were setting and checking gill nets. Our most common fish by far, maybe 50 to 1, were 3 to 10 pound common carp.

I'm thinking gill nets set in the correct habitat could catch many of your larger carp. If the net openings were large enough, you might only catch an occasional desirable fish. If I recall correctly, checking many nets would yield a boat load of carp and 2 or 3 walleyes. The lake had many walleyes, so we were avoiding catching them somehow.

You could address the smaller carp some other way, as suggested above.

Any idea what condition is preventing Large Mouth Bass from establishing??? I presume you want/tried stocking Northern strain Black Bass....? This is the first time I've read about any failure for LMB to establish....

I am not sure what is happening to the bass I put(500) 3 inch northern bass in 2013 then another 500 in 2014. With large rains I have a lot of water go out the spillway, they may have gone with the water. I also have 40 or more cormorants that stay around the lake. It has a lot of trees in the water that may use up the DO in the winter, I have only seen a few dead fish in the spring of 2014 and they were bullheads. The lake also has a large population of green sun fish that may have eaten the 3 inch bass. My next try to get bass will be adding 10 to 16 inch bass from another pond that is bass heavy.
This lake is not open to the public, but I let anyone in that asks. I maybe wrong but a lake needs to be fished or it will get over populated. Would be nice if they would not leave their drink bottles laying on the ground.

This lake is in NE. Nebraska laws makes it illegal to do anything that works, no trot lines, no gill nets, no traps with an opening larger than an inch. The old timers used to use a tangle trap for carp with 10 to 15 treble hooks hanging down from a wooden basket lid that had corn piled on it. Again not aloud in this state. With that said I should probably look up to see if you can bow hunt with artificial light.

Common carp come to the shallow areas to sleep at night, so they are relatively easy pickings.
Would the bass be in the trees and brush, so they would be harder for the cats to eat, compared to the carp if they are in the open shallow water? Just hoping

Many of those things you can do if you get a permit for 70$ or so.

I would stock as many 6"+ LMB as you can as they will be your primary tool in limiting recruitment of more carp over time. A LMB heavy pond would be ideal with restrictions on harvesting LMB. You will still need to find an effective way of thinning your current crop of adult carp down with some of the methods already mentioned.

Nedoc and I discussed RES as an experimental way of controlling carp the other day which just might work in conjunction with a heavy stocking of LMB. My experience with RES is that they love to eat small fish and they may help in limiting recruitment of young of the year carp. More importantly, RES also share a very similar diet with common carp, carp will eat vegetation but "prefer to scavenge the bottom for insects, crustaceans (including zooplankton), crawfish, and benthic worms". Having some competition for the same food resources carp prefer is likely a good thing.

What kind of permit do I need? A commercial fishing permit or something else from the game and parks. Would the permit be for one year or just for a short time. I would gladly spend $70 dollars to be able to get rid of the carp. Would I be able to have help with the nets or would everyone in the boat need a separate permit?

Regs don't apply to private waters here. Have you checked?

No I have not, but there is water coming out of the lake a lot of the time so I would say the state would say it is not private water.

NEhunter feel free to ping me sometime - I'm also in NE and help manage several fisheries in SE NE. I'm happy to help with some ideas.

Few thoughts: Comorants...need to go. Get depredation permit from state.

In order to qualify for that permit, you'll likely need an aquaculture license, cost of $70 annually.

I strongly suggest controlling access to your fishery.

Your pond/lake is not considered "public" because of flow through...nearly all ponds have flow through, but does not mean they become classified as public. Trot lines, fyke nets, etc. are fine on private water.

I like that gill net solution. If you have guys who want permission to fish, you have access to free labor. They should earn the right to fish, and you also need to implement regs on fishery harvest.

Let's talk sometime, happy to help.

TJ Hudson
tj@hudlandmgmt.com
402.730.4897

I looked up gill nets and there are all kinds of sizes. Has anyone used one for the removal of carp and what size of opening would you use if you would be targeting 16 to 30 inch carp? What area of the lake would you set them in? If you put them in the back waters at 3 feet of water or would you put them in closer to the main part of the lake in 10 feet water? Also if the net does not reach from the ground to the surface will the carp just swim under it? The price brake for the nets is at 100 yards, would be very hard to put a net that long in the trees in the back water. Also I would assume you put the net perpendicular to the bank, so the water depth would go from 2 feet to 15 feet in a 100 yards. That would really bunch up the net in the shallow water and not be on the bottom if you buy a 10 foot net. Would really like some info before I go and spend a lot of money on getting the permits and nets.

I'm gonna be interested to follow this as I have some of the same questions. I purchased a fyke net/trap net from Duluth Net Co. last year and had absolutely incredible customer service with regard to answering technical questions like that. You may wanna call them and find out if they can help with such questions.

Fyke nets are amazing. But, they can work your butt of.

http://www.ifs.tas.gov.au/about-us/publications/carp-management-update-oct-december-2013

Gill nets and trot lines baited with sweet corn using circle hooks looks like a promising combination.

These nets are at a more reasonable price, but I still would like to know what size to order? A 3 inch square net stretches to 6 inches, so would a 15 to 20 lb. carp get far enough into the net to be caught? The nets go to 5 inch square that stretches to 10 inches.I would like the net big enough so any 3 to 4 pound bass would not get caught, when I actually get some bass that size.

I would call the net mfg.'s like was suggested earlier. If you run the nets in 6-8 hour increments, any fish that is caught should be still alive and you can usually get the fish that you want to keep in the lake back into the lake without killing them. Make sure you get a pick or two too. gill net pick

Never heard of a gill net pick.

Just wanted to paste this link for archive purposes.

https://www.maisrc.umn.edu/carp-biocontrol

Of interest to me is this quote right here......

At the end of the season, lakes with bluegills had 11 times fewer carp offspring than those without bluegills.

Wow - interesting...I suspect the highly piscivorous GSH would reflect similar management characteristics? Start stocking Corey!!!

I have plans of 1200 HBG this spring. I’m curious as to what people’s thoughts would be about how HBG consumption of carp eggs and larva compare to standard BG. My long term plan is to alternate stocking BG on even years and HBG on odd years to continue to put pressure on the carp.

NEDOC, don't know, but always thought the HBG diet was similar to BG. Good question.

HBG gape should allow them to continue feeding on yoy carp after the BG cannot...I think they’d be even more efficient predators than BG although far less fecund than BG.

What's wrong with Carp? Mighty tasty. Send them my way.

TJ, my plan of attack is to attack the carp at every stage of life that I can. As you know, carp are hard to control for 3 major reasons 1) they reproduce at incredible rates 2) they grow so quickly that they soon outgrow the gape of predator fish and 3) they have an extremely long life expectancy. That coupled with the fact that they tend to impact plankton in a BOW, and in turn makes it so YOY have a low survival rate make it so they overtake a pond rather quickly. SO..... my plan is to use my grow out ponds to eliminate the dependence of plankton for YOY survival. Then I will stock grown out BG, HBG and RES to attack carp eggs and early larval stages. Those that make it past that stage will then be attacked by HSB. Those that make it past that stage will be attacked by LMB. For those few that make it to the first fall and reach nearly 6" in length, they will be attacked by my Tiger Muskie and Blue Cat. All my fish, other than TM will be feed trained and supplementally fed sporadically through the year. But I'd like to shut feed off during times when I believe carp young can be decimated most. I will also continue to trap net and seine adult carp out of the pond. With all that said, I highly doubt I'll be anywhere close to 100% effective as carp reproduction is just too overwhelming. But I do plan to have fun, learn a lot and drink beer in the process.

What do you think the chances are this would work on grass carp!!!! They are technically in the minnow family. Need to get rid of some, but they are impossible to kill.

I think I will also add this image from this link that shows how quickly carp grow, which helps explain how they outgrow gape so quickly... Keep in mind this image is from southern Minnesota, so growth rate and spawn will need adjusted accordingly. With that being said, it appears to me as though nearly all carp fry would be outside the gape of predator fish by August or September of their first year.

https://www.wrc.umn.edu/sites/wrc.umn.edu/files/sorensen_keynote_wed_lab_carp_politics.pdf

Do your grass carp reproduce? I don't know much about them, but I don't know why the model I'm using wouldn't work. Essentially I've attempted to build a model that eliminates most reproduction. The fact that BG impact carp reproduction so drastically is new to me though.

No sterile, but I know grass carp are very sensitive to toxins. Where would one get such a volume of Antimycin-A does anyone know??

It sounds like its sold under the name of Fintrol in its piscicide form. I'm guessing its a controlled substance and a permit/license would be needed.

The neurotoxin commonly used in backpack sprayers to kill mosquitos is an effective carp poison at low doses. It can be a selective way to target carp and leave other fish untouched. This has been used in some scientific studies.

Unfortunately, there is some collateral damage to the other tiny critters on the food chain (insects in the water, tiny invertebrates, scuds, shrimp, may die even crayfish get bothered to some degree by the nerve irritant)

Bifenthrin is easily available but is not labeled for such use.

If one could be sure the carp would target a certain type of fish food pellet saturated with the formula or wad of vegetation that contained the toxin in a gelatin capsule it could be an effective way to target the carp only.

That’s interesting CC. I wonder if it could be as simple as soaking corn in Bifenthrin? Seems that is how they applied Antimycin A.

I wonder if you could get carp feeding on homemade dough balls and periodically make the dough balls with bifenthrin or inject bifenthrin into the dough balls similar to how they make a jelly roll? Then for the next few feedings use 'straight' pure doughballs, then do a bifenthrin dough ball feeding, etc. If one could get small bifenthrin pills or granules insert a pill into each dough ball.

Interesting... they have quarts of liquid Bifenthrin for $21.

Most local coops or farm stores have quarts or gallons under different names (Talstar, Crossbow, etc) It is considered a low-impact insecticide in the pyrethrin family. The pyrethrins are natural neurotoxins from the Chrysanthemum flower. It jams open ion channels in the nerves so that they can't properly open and shut.

It is used in agriculture and residential areas both inside and outside for a broad spectrum of pests.

The trick is to be innovative on how to target the Carp's specific appetite or eating habits. If the collateral damage to the most sensitive tiny organisms in the pond is considered worth it, (meaning that this is part of an intentional sterilization of the pond and then the food chain will have time to restart on its own) then it is simple and effective to treat the entire BOW.

It is more toxic when applied at cold temperatures and more toxic to cold water preferring fish over warm water preferring fish. It is not affected by hardness or pH. The pyrethroids are used in fish farms to control insect parasites of fish.

I was searching for the study but could not come up with it. Someone in the biology world can probably search the literature for the toxicity concentration for various species using the common pyrethroid compounds and share that.

If a doughball saturated with compound could be taken in by a target carp it could be lethal. However the saturated nature of the corn or dough may bring with it a taste that makes it unlikely to be eaten. It would then have to be contained in a secondary substance inside the dough ball or perhaps in a gelatin capsule if the fish digestion could break down gelatin.

Found this table showing that mammals and birds do not experience as much toxicity due to having an enzyme system to break down the active ingredient. Fish do not have this system.

The bifenthrin product is poorly soluable in water and settles quickly to the bottom and stays active in the sediment. This may also be a means to target bottom feeding fish vs others.

From wikipedia here is a table of toxic levels know has LD50 or lethal dose for 50% of the test subjects:

Table of LD50 values

Female rats 54 mg/kg
Male rats 70 mg/kg
Mice 43 mg/kg
Mallard ducks 1280 ppm
Bobwhite quail 4450 ppm
Honey bees 17mg/l
Rainbow trout 0.00015 mg/l
Bluegill 0.00035 mg/l
Daphnia 0.0016 mg/l

Interesting article using it on a small body of water to help control crayfish.

Pyrethroids for crayfish control

This could be brilliance...

Electrofishing kills grass carp 90% rate..
When amperage is properly set for all other species, we see a huge wake and a trail of blood behind Amurs.. it's impressive!

They make empty pill capsules in various sizes.
https://capsuline.com/pages/empty-capsule-size-chart

If serious and adventurous make some pills loaded with your substance. Insert one into a dough ball. Capture a wild small carp and put it in an aquarium. Get it feeding on your dough ball recipe. Insert one of your 'pills' into a doughball and see if your carp will eat it. What may happen is the carp will suck up the doughball and before swallowing it, mush up the doughball, eject the pill capsule, and keep the goodies. Inquiring minds want to know.

I've got the perfect cage to put a dozen or so carp in. Small enough mesh that I can throw corn in and it won't slip through the bottom. If I can get carp feeding on corn soaked in flavored gelatin, I'm thinking I may slowly work my way toward soaking the corn in some Bifenthrin and toss it in and observe the response. Simple enough little experiment. Like stated above, it may possibly create a taste that keeps carp away though. But certainly affordable enough to try.

NEDOC,
work on a few angles. First if you want to do the gelatin capsule idea in a doughball then there are small quantities you can order on ebay, and the thickness of the capsule wall plays a big role in how fast it breaks down once it is wet. You can also speed up capsule dissolution by filling the 2 capsule halves, then putting them together, then using a needle to put a hole (experiment with size) on each end of the capsule. The idea would be to keep most of the active ingredient in the capsule for long enough for the doughball to be eaten, but also at the same time get some of the moisture from the environment outside of inside the fish to get on the inside of the gel capsule to help dissolve the capsule from the inside and the outside.

The other thing that may affect toxicity is whether the poison can work from the inside of the fish through GI absorption, or if the surface effect on the gill is the more rapid/deadly mechanism. There are clear effects once the stuff hits the blood on the internal organs and on the red blood cells. But there also is a direct blocking of oxygen uptake right at the gill level. This would of course require the toxin to be evenly distributed in the water of the tank. That would not be our goal for your test purposes.

The 'loaded corn' would work as a delivery tool, I'm just not sure if the loaded corn would float and other fish would target it, or if it would sink rapidly and only the carp would target it?

Also, if you have access, the other variants in the same family may have more potency at lower doses. I know there has been some study with malathion, permethrin and the newer synthetic types of pyrethroids.

We have a local irrigation supply house that supports fertilizer, lawn care and underground sprinkling companies and they sell gallons of the stuff for quite cheap.

Cold water makes the stuff work better so consider that when comparing a indoor warm water dose vs current outdoor cold temperature pond water.

in shopping capsule size 000 is biggest, and 5 is smallest. I see ebay listing for small numbers of small size (say size 3) which is probably a useful size to work with.

What other foods would Carp target outside of bread balls? They are herbivores so maybe we can put the capsule in some brussel sprouts?

If it helps any, of all of our Carp derbys it seems strawberry flavor seems to be quite effective..??

Fascinating stuff guys. Thanks for lending your knowledge to this thread.

We don't know what the lethal dose is for various sizes of carp. Another idea is to make gelatin pills. You can buy flavored (strawberry) or unflavored gelatin. Dissolve gelatin as stronger concentration for more solid final product. Add your chemical to toxic concentration allow gelatin to set up and slice up into pill form or edible sizes. Feed as pellets or insert "pill" into the doughball.

FINALLY a good use for brussel sprouts!

corn, with vanilla, sugar let soak over night and put on hook. Use drop sinker at bottom and hook approx. a foot above. Put a little rock on a big rock and position rod wedged against smaller rock. let the critter pull a few times and when he takes a long pull enjoy.

Someone please mark this in their favorites and if you do try targeted carp 'poison pellets' or some other way to entice carp to consume the targeted product, please come back and let us know.

I think if a few people try different things we'll find a technique that works well and many others can benefit. Necessity is the mother of invention.

TJ and I discussed this last week. I believe I may try to incorporate some combination of the above this summer.

I'm a little hung up on ONLY targeting the carp with the baited feed. Surely other fish will be enticed to eat the bait. I suppose some collateral damage can be accepted?

I have caught many carp while fishing for other species, included baits have been...

earthworms while fishing for BG and CC,
canned corn while fishing for BG,
jigs while fishing for BG and crappie, and
small bread wads for panfish.

I can't think of anything that carp like that others do not. Well, maybe brussel sprouts..LOL! (I bet TP even like that)

To reduce the collateral damage, one could feed train the carp and then one un-expecting day hit them with the "stuff" so long as other species haven't joined the party. IDK

If you are targeting the biggest carp, and if they are used to targeting a 'feeding area', then the size of the gelatin blob saturated with the toxin, or the size of the breadball might give you a way to be selective. If you use corn, then it is possible that a variety of smaller fish might sample the corn as well.

The good news is that the published levels of pyrethroids that are toxic to goldfish/carp is much lower than BG and other fish. SO there is some built in selectiveness in the way the 'toxin' works.

Also if the chemicals are drifting out of the bread balls, the density is such that it stays on the bottom. In this way bottom feeders would be targeted more directly again.

So if a non-targeted fish, like a BG, eats some of the bait with the toxin, will the toxin remain in the meat of the fish, even if it is not enough to kill it?