Pond Boss
Posted By: Pat Williamson BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/11/15 01:06 AM
Ok guys lets get this party started! This should be very helpful to the folks that love crappie.
My crappie have been in the pond for 1 year now. They were 4-5" and now are around 9-12" long . Does that sound normal at this point? They don't seem to be thin.

Pat W
Posted By: mnfish Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/11/15 01:22 AM
Sorry Pat..my bad!!! I will move my stuff here and delete my post.
Posted By: mnfish Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/11/15 01:24 AM


IME - Black crappies love to eat! And bigger than I originally thought!



2.5" GSF eaten by 6" BCP



3" Rapala eaten by a 7" BCP
Posted By: mnfish Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/11/15 01:30 AM
Relative weights Pat? 5" to 10" in one season...WOW...I'm jealous!!

Posted By: Bill Cody Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/11/15 01:47 AM
Yes - very good idea. Let's get some lengths and weights of your crappie.

We also should document what types of predators and other minnows or forage fish are your pond. Amount of weed cover will also be very good information.
Posted By: esshup Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/11/15 02:18 AM
Rotenone is a management tool..................... wink laugh
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/11/15 02:20 AM
Pat,

Please provide a few stats on your pond as well such as size, depth, vegetation, structure, forage, predators, etc.
Posted By: mnfish Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/11/15 02:37 AM
Originally Posted By: esshup
Rotenone is a management tool..................... wink laugh


It sure is Esshup! But you better not let me catch you killing the magnificent BCP with it...or else! grin


I've been doing the BCP thing for awhile now here in MN and I can't get relative weights over 110%. With most in the 90-95% range. 12" crappies in 5-6 years.
I would love to read what guys are doing to get the relative weights above 110%
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/11/15 02:47 AM
I guess I need to get a digital scale- how much damage will handling these fish- since I'm releasing them because this is their first year and this spring will be their first spawn. These are the broodstock so I don't want to damage them. Yet!
I had stocked 800/200 CNBG/ RES at the same time as the 300 BCP. Also added 50 1-1-1/2# CNBG from a neighboring pond. Also 50# FHMs added. Last early summer swarms of LMB showed up along shorelines. Bucket stocked adults I guess,anyway they and the crappie ate all the forage including YOY CNBG. Set minnow trap and caught no YOY. Since then I added 50/50 a Shiner/ FHMs to get my babies(BCP) through till the spawn this spring. There is brush piles/ cedar trees , one rockpile on top of 4 pallets, and about 1ac. Flooded timber/ brush/ youpon in the creek .

Pat W
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/11/15 02:54 AM
Bill D
My pond if it ever fills up will be 5ac+- hard to say with the seasonal creek. Right now 5' low and 10' deep


Esshup....... Shame on you! Lol they such purdy fish
Posted By: esshup Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/11/15 04:59 AM
laugh

I thought I'd point that out in case anybody was interested. wink grin
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/11/15 09:06 AM
The initial stocker fish of almost all species into a new pond almost always show rather impressive growth rates. The challenge, especially with crappies is maintaining that growth rate or even one near after they begin spawning.
Posted By: dlowrance Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/11/15 04:47 PM
I can tell you that I'm on year 5 of my pond and the BCP have never looked better...I've not caught a single thin one yet. I use LMB and HSB as management tools, with forage of RES and plain BG, and yearly stocking of FHM from a brood pond.

So far so good.
Posted By: mnfish Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/11/15 04:47 PM
I have been managing BCP for 12 years now in my ponds and friends ponds here in MN. Small BOW two acres or less.

My three must do's EVERY year are simple. Harvest, harvest, and yep you guessed it, harvest. I monitor relative weights EVERY year. To ensure I am harvesting enough fish. Don't be like me and be intimidated with fish tagging! IMHO- It's a fantastic tool for monitoring and a lot of fun.



Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/11/15 09:15 PM
Where would I buy a digital scale and would weighing it damage the fish?


Pat
Posted By: dlowrance Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/11/15 10:16 PM
X2 on the harvesting requirements....last year (2014) I removed 451 crappie from my pond. This year my plan is to do something around 300 or so.

As long as I can continue to catch them A) in abundance and B) in good to very good health then I think I'm on the right track.
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/11/15 10:28 PM
Dlowrance and mnfish,

Please provide a few stats on your ponds such as size, depth, vegetation, structure, forage, predators, etc. I think that info could be helpful in the future when comparing success stories to not so successful stories.
Posted By: FireIsHot Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/11/15 10:39 PM
Originally Posted By: Pat Williamson
Where would I buy a digital scale and would weighing it damage the fish?


Pat

Pat, this is a good one. You can put a small tub with water on top, then zero it out before you weight the fish.
scale
Posted By: mnfish Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 02:15 AM
Originally Posted By: FireIsHot
Originally Posted By: Pat Williamson
Where would I buy a digital scale and would weighing it damage the fish?


Pat

Pat, this is a good one. You can put a small tub with water on top, then zero it out before you weight the fish.
scale


That is a good looking scale! I might have to get me one of those. It would present a lot more professional than the one I took from my wife's kitchen...shhhhh don't tell her it was me, she still thinks it was one of my daughters blush
Posted By: fishm_n Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 04:03 AM
MNfish what do your crappie eat? What are you forage base?
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 03:04 PM
BillD. says: "Please provide a few stats on your ponds such as size, depth, vegetation, structure, forage, predators, etc. I think that info could be helpful in the future when comparing success stories to not so successful stories." This is a very good suggestion. Quality sized crappie are definitely not as easy to produce as most other panfish.

If you provide some crappie growing stories or photos please provide some info about the water body size, depth, predators, and the forage species or a link describing your pond's history/background. It would also be helpful to add some info about amount and type of cover or habitat. With this information we can start to see a pattern as to what types of water and conditions will consistently grow good sized crappie. There is definitely a good balance that will produce quality crappie populations in ponds. We just need to figure out what those pond characteristics are for a 'healthy' crappie fishery.
Posted By: dlowrance Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 03:50 PM
The pond I mention is an odd shaped pond, between 5-6 surface acres in size, max depth of 28 feet with average depth of 12. Fairly steep banks for the most part, with the far north end of the northeast cove/neck being the only larger shallow area.

See here for visual:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2325753,-89.988563,602m/data=!3m1!1e3

Current population of RES, BG, BCP, LMB, a very few CC and I hope still some HSB after last fall's fish kill.

Vegetation is probably 20-30% coverage most years, with coontail and water primrose alternating as the primary vegetation year to year it seems like. No real explanation for this, last year I had virtually no primrose, the year before my banks were 80-90% covered. The banks are steep enough in most places that when the primrose is in control it only spreads out maybe 6 feet into the water column...8 tops.

Water clarity varies from 12" to 30" visibility depending on the time of year.

I would quantify the forage base as good to very good. Minnow trap sampling shows good population diversity of multiple year classes of all species save CC and HSB (obviously).

Overabundance of structure as can be seen in the pic...the Northeast channel is completely full of submerged and partially submerged trees. It's almost unfishable, and comprises almost 1/3 of the water volume based on my calculations.
Posted By: mnfish Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 04:47 PM
Everything stated below is from my experiences and observations here in MN ONLY. They are only my experiences/opinions and in no way should be considered scientific fact. I am a little reluctant to post some of my findings because they are not of conventional thinking. Please keep in mind your location and results may differ greatly from mine!

My observations (the bolded statements are the patterns that I have observed for successful BCP ponds here in MN):

I have helped build and manage close to 20 ponds here in MN over the last 12 years. It's really a network of guys working together that enjoy everything wildlife. Most of the guys, like me, have multiple ponds. We have BOW ranging in size from 1/10 to 2 acres. Most of the ponds have BCP's in them. And all of them are producing what I would consider acceptable BCP's (over 8" with 90% RW or better)

Small bodies of water, less than 2 acres


When I am asked about creating a pond here in MN, I get the same questions EVERY time. The number one question, besides permitting, is the pond depth question. Almost every time, with the right location and hydrology, my suggestion is never deeper than 8' with an average of 4'. Ideally 25-50% of the pond surface area less than 2’. I read somewhere, probably right here on PondBoss, that 90% of all natural occurring food for fish is produced in 1’ of water or less. I believe it and design to it! That nasty smelling, shallow, mucky bottom, is the grocery store for BCP’s. (this strategy for pond construction gets challenged A LOT but the results are proving it sound!)

Shallow overall depths,8’ max with average depths of 4’, high % of organic bottom

Most of the 20 ponds are dugouts and most are highly organic. Meaning greater than 50% of the pond bottom is made up of peat. This is where I believe the Lion’s share of the food is produced for the BCP consumption. I am not exaggerating when I state, there is a new bug hatch every week during the summer and fall months. The word of the day… Entomology!

BOW that produces high counts of bug life

Most of the 20 ponds have a mixture of all kinds of fish. Mostly bucket stocked initially. Channel cats, largemouth bass, black bullheads, bluegills, pumpkinseeds green sunfish, and yellow perch. Most of the ponds are wetland type ponds. They contain stickle back minnows, fatheads, mud minnows and golden shiners. Most of the guys want fish to eat and have a place to entertain family and friends. Harvest the pond….hard! Without exception EVERY BCP comes out with the exception of between 9-12”. They go back. Fishing most likely won’t be enough. Trapping, culling and sorting is usually needed.

Intensive harvest every year

Hope this helps!
Posted By: mnfish Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 04:48 PM
Dlowrance- Can't remember where you posted some pics but you should post those pics of your crappies here...they are beasts!
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 05:14 PM
Mnfish
Got a dumb question, how do you trap crappie, CNBG will go into a minnow trap but what about BCP. As I haven't had my first spawn yet ( that I know of) when would you trap to see how the spawn went? And the only plants in pond so far is FA



Pat
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 05:32 PM
MN uses a modified fyke net with brilliant design I covet in a big way enabling it to be deployed solo. Since he won't take the credit for its design genius, I'm bestowing it on him. He's doing a lot of creative projects up there...his modesty apparently prevents him from posting on them more. Aeration, solar, fyke nets, who knows what else he's got rolling. MN is a huge asset to the forum. He is hereby ordered to post more often.
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 05:56 PM
"Shallow overall depths,8’ max with average depths of 4’, high % of organic bottom"

MNfish,

Of everything you said, this has me the most curious. Why do you prefer water no deeper than 8 feet? I would think in Minnesota deep water would be preferred.
Posted By: dlowrance Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 06:33 PM
Some BCP pics as requested by MN...





Posted By: Bill Cody Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 06:39 PM
This is great information and good examples for other members to see what you crappie growers are doing. If you are catching nice sized crappie, you may not be doing the all traditional things, but you must be doing some things correctly to grow some decent crappie. We should be looking for repeating patterns of correct things that produce quality sized crappie. IMO one thing we should pay attention to is how much manual removal of small crappie is needed in each situation. For some pondowners manual removal of small fish is not practical or desired, and some people may find more hands on "fish squeezing" efforts are part of the pond management fun.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 06:50 PM
Do your crappie ponds have a lot of vegetation and if so did you plant it or natural occurring. Mine is void of any yet


Pat
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 07:34 PM
Selecting to stock HBCP have resulted in robust fish for me - average size after 4 years is 13", and several over 15" have been caught. So far, no population management issues to report. They have worked out very well in my fishery, and serve as another BG population management device.
Posted By: mnfish Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 07:34 PM
Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
MN uses a modified fyke net with brilliant design I covet in a big way enabling it to be deployed solo. Since he won't take the credit for its design genius, I'm bestowing it on him. He's doing a lot of creative projects up there...his modesty apparently prevents him from posting on them more. Aeration, solar, fyke nets, who knows what else he's got rolling. MN is a huge asset to the forum. He is hereby ordered to post more often.


TJ- Thank you for the kind words!!! I am going to show this post to my wife. I'm fairly confident, in the 21 years of marriage, she has never used the words "Genius" or "Modest" to describe me. I also guarantee she will ask me how much I paid you to type those words!! grin grin
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 07:43 PM
Keep the checks coming, amigo.
Posted By: mnfish Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 07:45 PM
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
"Shallow overall depths,8’ max with average depths of 4’, high % of organic bottom"

MNfish,

Of everything you said, this has me the most curious. Why do you prefer water no deeper than 8 feet? I would think in Minnesota deep water would be preferred.



I love the question Bill and would enjoy discussing my reasons. There is a lot to your question, maybe more information than you wanted. But mostly having nothing to do with BCP's so we should probably discuss some where else on the forum. Probably in the aeration section. Again, this is some non traditional thinking that is challenging what people thought they knew. Especially, IMHO, the fish experts in the northern states.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 07:45 PM
TJ
Mine were4-5" last February when stocked and am now catching and releasing 8"-12" after a year mine are plain BCP. Am hoping they will spawn this spring for the first time I think..... Not sure how old 4-5"ers are . Do you think the YOY BCP will be sized enough by next fall to catch?


Pat
Posted By: mnfish Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 07:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Pat Williamson
Mnfish
Got a dumb question, how do you trap crappie, CNBG will go into a minnow trap but what about BCP. As I haven't had my first spawn yet ( that I know of) when would you trap to see how the spawn went? And the only plants in pond so far is FA



Pat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40iIIxdT-io

I posted this last year (I think). My kids got involved and told me to do a you tube video. Pretty fun experience for our entire family. It's a little long but the music is dramatic! Enjoy grin
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 08:04 PM
Great video showing your creative method for using a fyke net. Too bad your dog can't help, he/she is sure interested in what you are doing. Thanks for taking time to make and share this video.
PS - this thread is now in two locations about crappie in the archives.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 08:25 PM
mnfish
Nice job did you build or buy that setup? Do you restock other lakes with the bi catch or other



Pat
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 08:49 PM
Originally Posted By: Pat Williamson
TJ
Mine were4-5" last February when stocked and am now catching and releasing 8"-12" after a year mine are plain BCP. Am hoping they will spawn this spring for the first time I think..... Not sure how old 4-5"ers are . Do you think the YOY BCP will be sized enough by next fall to catch?


Pat


Yes those 8-12 should pull a spawn this year, never know how recruitment will go - varies from year to year. First generation are often the best performing - less competition and usually highest level of available forage for fast growth. I think you'll see a slowdown in growth of subsequent year classes, but as long as the population is being managed I think you could see 4-8" by Fall - but this is a guess on my part. Hard to expect YOY to achieve 8-12" in a few months.

I encourage you to harvest liberally as fish conditions dictate. Typically one can't overharvest. Might consider leaving some outstanding 12"ers in to reach trophy status [15"+], and liberally harvest those 9-11" fish.
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 08:55 PM
Originally Posted By: mnfish
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
"Shallow overall depths,8’ max with average depths of 4’, high % of organic bottom"

MNfish,

Of everything you said, this has me the most curious. Why do you prefer water no deeper than 8 feet? I would think in Minnesota deep water would be preferred.



I love the question Bill and would enjoy discussing my reasons. There is a lot to your question, maybe more information than you wanted. But mostly having nothing to do with BCP's so we should probably discuss some where else on the forum. Probably in the aeration section. Again, this is some non traditional thinking that is challenging what people thought they knew. Especially, IMHO, the fish experts in the northern states.


MNfish,

Thanks! I have started a thread in the aeration section on Minimum Pond Depth requirements. Looking forward to your thoughts! smile
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 08:56 PM
TJ
Thanks

When should harvesting start- when the first spawn reach catchable- leaving the stocked broodstock alone?
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 09:04 PM
Also what do yall think of adding tilapia to the mix for additional forage to jumpstart crappie growth
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 09:30 PM
I think you can start harvest now, be thinking your 9-11" fish. If you see a runt, skinny 8 from same year class add him to the bunch - doing nothing but tying up carrying capacity. Maybe give the 12" fish a chance to keep going and return them. I don't think you could possibly affect their population through casual angling where it was negatively impact reproduction. It only takes a few adults, and infrequent successful spawns or low recruitment helps you with future management, so I'd say harvest away.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 09:56 PM
TJ
Even the broodstock? I put in 300 a year ago. Or leave them?
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/12/15 11:35 PM
You're fine leaving them be for a season or two, and you're fine to begin harvest now. Either way, there's no written rule for this - many factors come into play which would influence my advice such as your overall fishery makeup, your goals for fishery, balance of species populations, forage base type and density, species of predators and their density, etc. Since I don't know any of these factors, I'm trying to provide general and casual advice only. But this advice too will vary depending on the size and frequency of your harvest. If you're talking about removing 5-8 fish once a month for a meal, you are fine harvesting 9-11" fish now, or any that are underperforming, you want them out anyhow. Plenty will remain to pull a spawn if thats what you want. Again, I'd leave the 12"+ fish, or those that are exceptional WR, and allow them to grow into trophies and pass along their genetics. Even if you fished daily for crappie, I doubt you would manage to extirpate the population. So, generally speaking, if you want crappie dinners over the Spring and Summer, I think you are fine harvesting 9-10 or 11" fish and culling/filleting any runts and you won't have to worry about impacting your population negatively. I believe eventually you'll likely experience population management issues with BCP in a smaller BOW - at least the vast majority of smaller pond managers report this issue - so might as well enjoy the fish now and help curb that issue. I am not reciting any scripture here, just saying I think you're fine with immediate harvest of slot fish provided you don't go crazy with numbers. Is this helpful? I promise I'm trying to be!
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/13/15 01:20 AM
TJ it is helpful and I thank u. This might not have been as big a problem had someone not dumped LMB in the mix before my CNBG got large enough to spawn, I guess it's learn as you go sometimes. Every situation is different. I definitely welcome input.
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/13/15 01:34 AM
Pat,

I see a BCP and LMB dinner in your near future. Better get that Falstaff on ice! Nothin better than beer battered fried fish and cold beer grin Don't forget the hush puppies!

Edit: I know those BCP are your babies my friend, and I can relate to that as I have never even wet a line in my puddle yet, but you can't keep them all.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/13/15 03:56 AM
Maybe after the spawn I can sample some of the goodies
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/13/15 05:25 AM
Your fish should be bedding soon, mid to late March?
Posted By: mnfish Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/13/15 05:32 AM
Pat- I wouldn't worry about your crappies pulling off a spawn. Quite the opposite. Bon appetite with some of those beauties grin
Posted By: dale k Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/13/15 09:51 AM
The best Crappie pond I have seen was managed by accident, Every winter several High school boys would fish the deepest part of the pond and sack up a lot of nice crappie when it got to where they would only catch 4 or 5 they would quit. I saw this year after year. There were no bass in this pond. I don't know if that matters.
I have one pond with white crappie. I manage it fair I harvest smaller bass and turn loose any over 3 -4 pounds. I am building a pond downstream and before I do I will drain the crappie pond to prevent them from entering the new pond. I think if you really will eat a lot of crappie it is a fine choice. I also just cant hardly dump them on the bank. I clean a lot of 6" crappie.
I had another pond That I stocked crappie in and they never spawned as far as I could tell , no idea why.
Not sure I am any help
Posted By: snrub Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/13/15 01:03 PM
Very cool fish trap and video mnfish.

Thanks!

I've been pondering on how to transfer fish effectively from forage pond to main pond without draining and seining. I've only used minnow traps and one regular wire fish trap. Something like you have done, maybe about once a week, might work in my forage pond.
Posted By: esshup Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/13/15 01:10 PM
Pat, even with the broodfish, if you find a skinny 8" BCP take it out. I stocked some 9"-11" CC in my pond years ago, and was removing them when they were around 5#. I caught one that was 12" long and thought that I had reproduction, which I didn't want. I then noticed the missing adipose fin, which I clipped off of all the stockers. That one didn't grow.

Same with the broodfish BCP. If you have one that isn't growing, why leave it in there to reproduce??
Posted By: Snakebite Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/13/15 03:05 PM
Dale, how big were both these crappie ponds?
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/13/15 03:45 PM
One important thing we should try and figure out is what pond features deter successful spawning by crappie similar to the one described by Dale?? ""I had another pond That I stocked crappie in and they never spawned as far as I could tell , no idea why"". Something or combination of things caused this. We should try to figure out what caused this. It may be one of the key features for producing big crappie.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/13/15 04:28 PM
Bill C
That's a very good question that needs to be addressed. In my case I want spawning at this point but need to know how to control if possible

Esshup: that's a good point
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/13/15 04:40 PM
It is a whole lot easier (time and money) to buy and add stock crappie when needed than to spend lots of time and effort removing excess numbers. Time is money to most.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/13/15 04:55 PM
What happens if no spawning areas are available? By way of an extreme example, I know of a few limestone quarries that present little, if any, water I would normally consider suitable for spawning. Limestone blocks were cut from these places, and raised to ground level vertically. They are literally rectangular "ponds", with completely vertical rock sides and no shallow water at all.

They would be tough to fish, but would the crappie still recruit?
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/14/15 12:12 AM
I stocked 50#of shiners up to 4" long recently to get the crappie through the winter.. Any hints on if they will spawn and how to encourage them in a pond with no weeds or plants yet. Any artificial spawning sites that can be put into the pond to facilitate things?
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/14/15 03:08 PM
How would tilapia be added to Comtrol FA and also be an additional forage fish?
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/14/15 03:59 PM
""How would tilapia be added to Control FA and also be an additional forage fish?"" I don't think anyone is using tilapia primarily as forage for crappie ponds. It would be a good thing to try and may help improve growth of the crappie if the other predators did not eat most all of the young tilapia. In the fall when all tilapia are dying all fish eating predators are getting some of the easy to catch forage.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/14/15 04:20 PM
Bill
I was thinking that having tilapia YOY would take some of the heat off of CNBG YOY untill they get established since the LMB population exploded to soon
Posted By: dale k Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/14/15 05:43 PM
The one I have with crappie is about and acre and had no cover other then weeds when I got it. I have added some cedar trees and need more. The pond the crappie didn't spawn in was about 2/3 acre and had a lot of woody cover and had nice bass and big bluegill.

The pond I am building below the crappie pond is 10 acres and I don't even want to attempt to manage crappie. Hopefully I wont get any from upstream it is fed by a wet weather creek and gets some strong flows with no telling how many farm ponds that run into it.
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/14/15 09:06 PM
Originally Posted By: Pat Williamson
I stocked 50#of shiners up to 4" long recently to get the crappie through the winter.. Any hints on if they will spawn and how to encourage them in a pond with no weeds or plants yet. Any artificial spawning sites that can be put into the pond to facilitate things?


You can lower pond level a few feet, plant rye or fescue, let it grow to 6" and raise water level again. Some have also advocated using furnace filters...no clue on the latter methods' efficacy - never done it - it's a Travis tip - he might have some experience to share.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/14/15 10:03 PM
Can't afford that- took since August last year to come up 6", and still 5' low.
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/14/15 11:47 PM
In the absence of submergent or emergent vegetation, I recommend planting the grass now along the exposed banks. Obviously in this scenario you're dependent on Spring rains and level rising over the grass which has hopefully grown some, and you may have established appropriate GSH spawning habitat. Or, you can search the archives for GSH spawning habitat furnace filters and might find some direction. Or, you can simply restock GSH until you have established habitat necessary for GSH spawning. GSH are pretty affordable and most hatcheries have access to them if they don't raise them. Doing my best here - those are the only options I know that can help you in absense of vegetation.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/15/15 12:10 AM
TJ
That I can do. Already the level has come up into the Bermuda grass that is growing down into the water line, plus there is some clumps of I believe is sedges that is now in several inches of water

Thanks


Pat
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/15/15 12:58 AM
That's all the GSH need, you should see some reproduction this Spring/Summer.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/15/15 02:16 AM
TJ
Failed to mention that I Also with the shiners added 50# of FHMs . What a expensive feast
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/15/15 02:26 AM
Pat,

Got any guess on how many bass that you have? You're still seeing a lot of GSH and FHM, right?
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/15/15 02:38 AM
Bill D
At this point I really don't know,but since they spawned last spring I would say probably 100 plus the parents. I was fishing the last time up and hung a hoss of a bass that took off stripping line unfortunately it ran under a log and got off. Estimated it at3-4lbsthe way it fought. One of the bucket parents. Most of the ones I'm catching are about9-12"

Not seeing any minnows at all last two times up cept a few gambusias in the flooded timber, but it has been cool
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/15/15 02:52 AM
I was just wondering if you will have minnows left at spawning time. The guys warned me that with only 6 SMB 8 to 10 inch and 1 LMB 8 to 10 inch that my fall stocking of 100 PS 2 to 3 inch and 10 lbs of FHM in my little 1/4 may very well be gone by this spring. I already had many many FHM and new BG spawn when I stocked last fall. Our situations are similar with no vegetation and I have 50+ YP 5 to 7 inch instead of your BCP. Just saying you might want to check to see if you still have minnow brood stock.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/15/15 02:59 AM
That's why I was trying to catch LMB to give my BCP more grub till spring spawn of everything, won't know till later in the spring if there are any FHMs and GSH left.the baitfish was a stopgap till spring

The BCP look good so far and maybe will get off their first spawn.....course so will the bucket bass2nd gen.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/15/15 05:41 PM
Will be going up to pond in next day or so and will put out minnow trap and see if any minnows go in .... Water has warmed some over the last few days



Pat
Posted By: stickem' Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/15/15 08:15 PM
Pat,
Bait fish were thick up against the banks up at my place yesterday...I guess feeding in a little warmer water in the sun lit shallows....activity in the pond has increased greatly in this warmer weather...but it may be short lived...they predicting low 30's by Wednesday....
Charlie
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/17/15 02:19 AM
Nothing going on but the wind and35 deg air.fished awhile had one bump but not a commitment. Will go look see tomorrow

Pat
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/17/15 02:25 AM
Tub jig slow under a cork... smile
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/17/15 02:31 AM
Did that this morning.... Have been catching crappie that way lately however thismorning sumpin tried to eat the cork! Bucket bass or CNBG prolly... This evening got a hit on a crank bait for crappie. Any other ideas beside rotenone (that's for Esshup)?
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/17/15 06:27 AM
I have access to various lengths of 14" pipe. How would some of those be as structure if I was to stuff a bunch of small cedar trees inside and roll it into the pond in 3' water or so

Pat
Posted By: snrub Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/17/15 02:03 PM
Pat, the cedar tree in a pipe sounds like a good idea. But what about bolting three of them together into a pyramid tee-pee, stuffing with trees, then rolling the teepee into the pond? Might have to shove it out further with a long 2x4.

A 14" pipe is eventually going to get filled in around with sediment and act more like a 7" bump on the bottom of the pond. Something taller will last longer and attract more fish, in my humble opinion.

But I really like the idea of stuffing the tree in the pipe for more dense cover and have thought of doing that myself. I would not make the pipe sections too terribly long (maybe 3' max????) or the middle might not get used much.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/17/15 02:41 PM
Snrub
Am planning at some point of having blue cats to be one of the apex predators as well as for eating the 2-3 lb ones. Won't putting pipe give them a spawning place when the cedar rots out?
Posted By: snrub Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/17/15 06:01 PM
Likely would be if they were CC. I'm not familiar with Blue catfish spawning habits so someone else will need to answer that question.

I don't know how much spawning will be a problem if you are going to have LMB to eat the fry. My understanding is LMB will keep CC spawn in check usually because the catfish fry are easy pickings. I will be finding out, because with stumps and concrete ledges am sure there are places for my CC to spawn, so I hope the LMB will control them and not become a problem. I'm in the wait and see stage.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/17/15 06:09 PM
With crappie and LMB there probably won't much of a problem- least of the worries-
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/18/15 04:45 PM
For some reason the BCP and LMB have stopped biting . Even when the water temp was in the 40s they would bite.... Now it's warmed some nothing.... Is this just normal for this time of the year?



Pat
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/19/15 03:23 PM
Interesting. I am definitely not a pro. Only things I can think of as food for thought....Some kind of hatch going on they might be focused on? Are they spawning already? Weather Front moving in? I am sure one of the other guys will be along to give you some answers.
Posted By: dlowrance Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/19/15 04:52 PM
what's your barometer doing? My experience with my BCP is they are much more prone to going off bite when the barometer drops than say BG are. No idea why or if this is consistent across other folks but it's been like that at my place for a long time.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/19/15 06:33 PM
dlowrance
That's prolly it cause a front went through and barometer was low... Will have to watch this for a trend....

Haven't caught any CNBG for over a month
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/20/15 08:19 PM
Does Anybody that has BCP in their ponds know at what water temp do they spawn at?


Pat
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/20/15 10:40 PM
FWIW Wikipedia says they spawn at 58 to 68 F
Posted By: bcotton Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/21/15 12:47 AM
Srac says roughly the same thing.

https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/277/

"Both white and black crappie reach sexual maturity at
2 to 3 years of age. Spawning begins in late March, April,
or early May depending on geographical location. Black
crappie spawn when water temperatures warm to 60 to 64
°F (15.6 to 17.8 °C), while white crappie spawn when water
temperatures reach 65 to 70 °F (18.3 to 21.1 °C). Males
select the nest sites and clear circular beds"
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/21/15 04:24 AM
bcotton
Hope mine are at least 2years old , they been in for a year and were 4-5" when stocked last February. So here's hoping that they pull off a spawn
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/26/15 05:30 PM
Any body know what this last cold snap will do to the spawning of the BCP? Since it is a little early I think , maybe it won't kill this years chance

Pat
Posted By: ewest Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/26/15 06:58 PM
It may delay the spawn a bit but will not stop it. The times when a spawn is missed/destroyed is when you have a big cold snap during the actual spawn (or influx of cold water from a big rain) which causes the eggs/fry to die.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/26/15 07:09 PM
Thanks Ewest
Being the first year that the BCP are old enough to spawn I was concerned. Right now they are 8-12" long from what I have caught and released


Pat
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 03/13/15 03:18 AM
The water temperature today was 55 deg. At the surface. The fish are not feeding at the feeder and not seeing any activity or catching anything! This is puzzling to me as to what is going on. The last cold snap dropped temp to 45deg
Posted By: snrub Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 03/13/15 03:49 AM
Yesterday we had 55 deg at surface and saw lots of fish in the shallows where the wind was blowing some floating FA to the north end of the pond. Ate some feed fair but not aggressively yet. Caught a few BG and one LMB. Still pretty sluggish.

Went out today and did not see nearly as many fish in the shallows and nothing much biting. Was overcast and not much sign of fish.

Yesterday with the sun out and clear water, when I would cast and the lure hit the water, eight to ten fish around it would swirl by the lure disturbance scaring them (but they did not bother to bite the lure - I'm not much of a fisherman). Lots of fish near the surface I assume feeding. Nothing much happening today.

Amazing what a difference there was in one days time.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 03/13/15 05:02 AM
I would think that in 2-3 weeks the BCP will start to think about spawning if we don't have an extended winter!


Pat
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 03/13/15 08:23 PM
Pat W. sent me these pics of his place. He told me it was ok to post a few. I am in pond envy....Again!





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Posted By: stickem' Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 03/13/15 08:46 PM
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Pat W. sent me these pics of his place. He told me it was ok to post a few. I am in pond envy....Again!





Yes, we are supposed time go by his place in the morning for coffee after we leave Overtons on our way to Dallas. Look forward to seeing his place first hand. I understand that his water level came up quite a bit in the last couple of days.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 03/13/15 10:34 PM
Bill and Charlie
Only 43" to be full!


Pat
Posted By: stickem' Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 03/13/15 10:46 PM
Originally Posted By: Pat Williamson
Bill and Charlie
Only 43" to be full!


Pat


Hopfully...it won't be long now...
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 03/13/15 10:55 PM
Looking great Pat! When ya gonna get busy on that new house so you can get up there and enjoy it full time?
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 03/13/15 10:57 PM
Soon...... That kinda stuff takes time....


Pat
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 03/22/15 10:01 PM
Surface water temp is 70ish now and it has been said that BCP begin to spawn at about 57 deg. Is that surface or taken at a certain depth? In my location do yall think they have spawned and how would you know if they did?
Posted By: Snakebite Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 03/22/15 11:32 PM
Pat I went fishing last week, air temps have been steady 66 degrees. Caught 22 in three hours all fairly shallow. Filleted them all PACKED FULL of eggs, some I could slightly squeeze and eggs sprayed out.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 03/23/15 10:30 AM
Guess that would mean that spawning was close at hand.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 03/23/15 05:31 PM
Any of you crappie raisers got any updates on the spawning and conditions of their fish?
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 03/29/15 12:17 AM
How would tilapia be for an additional forage fish for crappie?
Posted By: TGW1 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 03/29/15 12:06 PM
Pat, I am no expert here, but I think the tilapia is a win win for you. They would not only feed your crappie but also your LMB. Win Win And they will also feed you this coming NOV. smile

Tracy
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 03/29/15 05:00 PM
Thanks Tracy

Also going to add some mudbugs to the mix and have access to all the grass shrimp I care to catch. Problem is FA and no pond weeds for them to hide in




Pat
Posted By: TGW1 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 03/30/15 12:01 PM
I hear ya Pat about the FWS. I am wondering how to keep the shrimp in a pond full of CNBG and RES that has only FA and no Vegetation. I have Grass Carp on standby for June stocking and I am wanting to plant some American Pondweed but looks to me that I put in veg and then take it out with the GC. My head is spinning And where are the FWS going to live and prosper??

Tracy
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 03/30/15 01:28 PM
Tracy
I hear ya on the head spinning. Fish like the weeds but the fishermen don't.... Fine line there to walk. Yikes what to do! I was thinkin american pondweed



Pat
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 04/25/15 11:53 PM
Hey Pat,

So what's the pond record BCP so far?
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 04/26/15 01:39 AM
We at 12" for the first year. Not a bad start.... Time will tell , now we manage them
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 04/26/15 01:46 AM
Wow! Nice job man! I got this feeling you are gonna be happy somebody bucket stocked those LMB. grin
Posted By: highflyer Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 04/26/15 01:48 AM
Pat,
I love american pond weed in my ponds. It is good stuff, and it is easy to control and transplant. And the fish love it.
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 04/26/15 01:52 AM
Originally Posted By: highflyer
Pat,
I love american pond weed in my ponds. It is good stuff, and it is easy to control and transplant. And the fish love it.


Lots of posts on how good that stuff is. Added it to my list of vegetation to plant this year.

Hey made in the USA has to be good! smile
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 04/26/15 02:10 AM
Got tons of it around my place in pearland, along with ghost shrimp and gambusia
Just was worried that it would overrun the place

I'm with you on USA stuff
Pat
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 04/26/15 02:32 AM
Originally Posted By: highflyer
Pat,
I love american pond weed in my ponds. It is good stuff, and it is easy to control and transplant. And the fish love it.

Brian how far out in the pond does the pondweed extend? ( ' )
Posted By: snrub Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 04/26/15 03:45 AM
Here is an old thread on American Pondweed.

American Pondweed thread from 2004
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 04/26/15 04:06 AM
Wow thanks snrub that was an eye opener. Not sure I want that stuff! Might just let Ma Nature plant what She wants!
Thanks

Pat
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 04/26/15 04:14 AM
Just added 10# of4"-8"tilapias to the pond to consume FA and become cannon fodder for the bass and crappie. Anybody know how much of the FA that they will eat?
Posted By: TGW1 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 04/26/15 02:07 PM
Pat, I think they will eat till their belly is full !! don't u just hate a smart arse smile I had to smile

Tracy
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 04/26/15 05:00 PM
Since I started feeding the FA showed up. It's ugly but probably serves a good purpose with little critters that feed the YOY and hide them also I'm thinking. The tilapias are also eating the pellets. So when they start spawning maybe the young will eat some before they get eaten putting more protein into the LMB and BCP
Posted By: Bocomo Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 04/26/15 06:53 PM
I think you have to stock a certain density to see an effect on FA and 10# seems a little light for that purpose -- ask Rainman.
Posted By: george1 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 04/26/15 09:33 PM
Originally Posted By: Bocomo
I think you have to stock a certain density to see an effect on FA and 10# seems a little light for that purpose -- ask Rainman.

IMO, tilapia stocking numbers are one of those “it all depends” choices with stocking rates. Besides the fact that he is only about 10 miles from Overton Fisheries, I would hazard a guess that those 10# numbers were Todd’s since Pat’s pond is fairly new?

Todd just stocked 25# tilapia in our 2 acre pond and we have no FA - just wanted to bump up our forage base.
“It all depends”?
George
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 04/26/15 10:59 PM
Pat,

Are you one of the lucky ones? Will Tilapia live year round in your pond and can propogate?
Posted By: Bocomo Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 04/26/15 11:07 PM
Originally Posted By: george1
Originally Posted By: Bocomo
I think you have to stock a certain density to see an effect on FA and 10# seems a little light for that purpose -- ask Rainman.

IMO, tilapia stocking numbers are one of those “it all depends” choices with stocking rates. Besides the fact that he is only about 10 miles from Overton Fisheries, I would hazard a guess that those 10# numbers were Todd’s since Pat’s pond is fairly new?

Todd just stocked 25# tilapia in our 2 acre pond and we have no FA - just wanted to bump up our forage base.
“It all depends”?
George


I really don't know what he should stock -- just trying to point out someone who does. I'm sure Todd knows very well.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 04/26/15 11:44 PM
Originally Posted By: Bocomo
Originally Posted By: george1
Originally Posted By: Bocomo
I think you have to stock a certain density to see an effect on FA and 10# seems a little light for that purpose -- ask Rainman.

IMO, tilapia stocking numbers are one of those “it all depends” choices with stocking rates. Besides the fact that he is only about 10 miles from Overton Fisheries, I would hazard a guess that those 10# numbers were Todd’s since Pat’s pond is fairly new?

Todd just stocked 25# tilapia in our 2 acre pond and we have no FA - just wanted to bump up our forage base.
“It all depends”?
George



I really don't know what he should stock -- just trying to point out someone who does. I'm sure Todd knows very well.

Easy fellers: it was my idea to put 10# . That's all the extra cash I had this week to throw away on bait, I don't have a lot of FA and like Mr G says it depends, extra forage was the main reason- take the heat off the CNBG a little this spring. We will see if I need to add more
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 04/26/15 11:45 PM
Bill no they will die off this fall when it's cools down
Posted By: mnfish Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 04/29/15 03:46 AM
They have begun biting on the ponds (9-10"ers). Text pic's sent earlier tonite to me. Hoping to boat one that breaks the 13" mark this year.



Same rig as we always use.

Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 09/03/15 01:37 AM
No longer seeing any tilapia hitting feed or cruising the shoreline. Kinda wondering if bucket bass have eaten them all. The last ones I saw were males and were 10" long. That would be a fairly large bass to eat that I would think. Any ideas ?
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 09/03/15 01:43 AM
Beats me Pat. 10 inch would take a heckuva bass to eat. However, they might have tried.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 09/03/15 02:30 AM
I had a BIG one eat a6" crappie and never slowed it down for about 30 seconds before he decided to let go- I still caught the crappie minus scales on both sides....never saw any female tilapia all summer just males with the long red fins. So I don't think I got any forage for the crappie
Posted By: Rainman Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 09/03/15 05:37 AM
Pat, Large males are often all you'll see. The bigger the male, the bigger the nesting area it will defend. Males chase off every tilapia except a female ready to drop eggs, within minutes. After she's picked up her eggs, and he's let go of his milt, the male will kill her if she hangs around!
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 09/03/15 09:54 AM
Thanks guys was wondering why I haven't seen any tilapia swimming around or at feeding time... Guess will wait for it to get cold and see what floats up
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 09/03/15 01:35 PM
The first spawn of the crappie from last year are 7-8" long now, is that a normal growth rate for them or should they be larger?
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 09/03/15 03:16 PM
Crappie at about 16 months old and 7"-8" long is good growth. If the growth rate continues at this pace they will be 13"-15" long next summer. Excellent growth if it can happen.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 09/03/15 03:20 PM
Funny thing is that I'm not catching any of the original stockers that this spring were 12"+. Are the 8" ones beating them to the jigs ? Have not tried any live bait
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 09/03/15 09:34 PM
Mr Cody you have any ideas why I'm not catching any of the larger crappie any more?
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 09/04/15 12:35 AM
Hey Pat,

I am not a pro but FWIW we never catch the big ones here when the water is this warm. Spring is best for us. I can pick up a random one here or there but they are smaller and don't seem to be schooled up when the water is warm. It is luck for me to catch one.

Looking forward to hearing what Bill C. has to say. I may be just fishing the wrong way for warm water.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 09/04/15 12:42 AM
Thanks you might be on to sumpin. Maybe mr C will chime in
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/08/16 06:58 PM
Update the water is cooler and still only catching small 7" crappie that look thick enough but no longer catching many that are larger like we were last spring. Very odd unless we had a few over achievers and did not have a spawn the first year and they are slow growing cept for a few . They been in for two years

Any ideas as to what is going on?
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/08/16 08:43 PM
Not catching larger ones may be due to one of several reasons. I am not an expert crappie angler. My first thought was the oldest, largest ones died of old age but since they are still relatively young (3-4 yrs) old, age factor is not likely. Fast growing crappie will not live as long and die earlier as crappie that grow slower. Could be the younger more abundant BCP are getting to the bait before the older fewer numbers of "wiser" larger crappie. Crappie may school somewhat by size group so you may not be fishing where the larger crappie are hanging out?
Posted By: Snakebite Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/08/16 09:29 PM
That's where I'm leaning schooling with similar sized adults. They also could be suspending in open water not near structure. Do you use a boat with any kind of sonar?
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/08/16 09:37 PM
Last winter you could catch them in shallow water and it was colder than this season. Now they not biting hardly and only right on the bottom in 10-12' water on structure also could troll and catch while paddling the boat. Water is 52 deg at 3' and vis is down to 12-18"
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/08/16 09:53 PM
Just a thought Pat. Last winter I expect they were a lot smaller, maybe the size you are catching now? FWIW in my experience around here, now that they are Big Boys and Girls, they may very well have moved to deep water. In the spring here, the big ones school up and move back into the shallower water for spawning.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/08/16 10:35 PM
Bill the only place I can catch them is out in deep water on the bottom, and I mean bottom and not moving at all.
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/08/16 11:05 PM
I'm siding with Bill C. and Snakebite then....I would keep trying different places, different baits and different depths. Have you tried small live minnows?
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/08/16 11:22 PM
Have tried different depths and baits to no avail. Haven't broken down and used live bait. LOL that's the next thing I'll try, up until lately I could catch them everywhere......
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/09/16 01:50 AM
Sometimes fish, often bigger fish, will congregate in the deepest portion of the pond especially during winter.
Posted By: mnfish Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/09/16 02:15 AM
Try any night time fishing?

Do you know your water surface temps?
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/09/16 03:10 AM
BC
That might be part of it also, that is the only place that I'm catching the small 7-8" ones. Mnfish Have not tried at nites yet, how would you fish them? 57 deg on the surface 52 at 3'
Posted By: mnfish Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/09/16 03:24 AM
High 50's I like live bait/slip bobber set up; suspended over deeper water right about or after sun down (warmest water in low light). 6-12" below the surface
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/09/16 03:38 AM
You fish in deep water close to surface6-12"?
Posted By: mnfish Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/09/16 04:12 AM
They are more active in the warmer water and less spooky on the top water in the low light.

Keep in mind...I have zero experience with Texas fishing and it may not apply!
Posted By: TGW1 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/09/16 01:39 PM
Pat, in the big lakes in E. Texas the crappie are usually very deep this time of year. To 45' depths, but who know this year, crazy weather.

Tracy
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/09/16 04:17 PM
Guess just have to keep trying and by spring I should know.....just so different than last winter
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 05/06/16 01:20 AM
Subject for discussion....

A recent issue of PBM provides that "small" test ponds initially stocked with TFS, GSH and FHM and later with BCP and HSB have resulted in nice size BCP with minimal recruitment and nice HSB.

Has the magic formula been found for raising BCP in smaller BOWs? If maybe, what is so special about this stocking plan that makes it so effective?

In the long term, will the test ponds potentially be over run with GSH?
Posted By: Bocomo Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 05/06/16 01:54 AM
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Subject for discussion....

A recent issue of PBM provides that "small" test ponds initially stocked with TFS, GSH and FHM and later with BCP and HSB have resulted in nice size BCP with minimal recruitment and nice HSB.

Has the magic formula been found for raising BCP in smaller BOWs? If maybe, what is so special about this stocking plan that makes it so effective?

In the long term, will the test ponds potentially be over run with GSH?


And how critical are the TFS to the mix? They won't survive up here.
Posted By: ewest Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 05/06/16 02:07 AM
Yes that is a plan that has been reported here in the archive crappie thread. Still early but so far so good .
TFS are a key food source in the plan . You might be able to sub in another member of the herring family but who knows if it will work .
Posted By: esshup Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 05/06/16 03:43 AM
Originally Posted By: ewest
Yes that is a plan that has been reported here in the archive crappie thread. Still early but so far so good .
TFS are a key food source in the plan . You might be able to sub in another member of the herring family but who knows if it will work .


ewest, when you say another member of the herring family, should the fish as an adult be approximately the same size as adult TFS?
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 05/06/16 11:51 AM
Is it the GSH predation of the BCP eggs and fry that keeps the BCP recruitment low or something else?
Posted By: ewest Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 05/06/16 02:14 PM
Originally Posted By: esshup


ewest, when you say another member of the herring family, should the fish as an adult be approximately the same size as adult TFS?


That would be best so in other words the least favorable option would be GShad.
Posted By: ewest Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 05/06/16 02:16 PM
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Is it the GSH predation of the BCP eggs and fry that keeps the BCP recruitment low or something else?


It may be part of the reason but GSH do not eat that many eggs. My guess is the HSB really pound the small crappie. I am sure its a combination of several factors many of which we don't know due to the limited info and time. Really pushing the cutting edge on much of this.

For example one factor may be that many of the yoy crappie die due to starvation because the GSH and TFS eat all the right size plankton/inverts etc leaving none/little for the yoy crappie while in a pre piscivore stage.
Posted By: R&R Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 05/10/16 12:03 PM


Can't add much to the management equation but just thought I'd throw this in there. caught this 16 1/4" little over 2 lb BCP this past Friday. They were stocked 4 years ago. caught 4 over 14" out of 24 I kept for the freezer. The rest were in the 10-11" range.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 05/10/16 12:28 PM
Wow what a slab! Beautiful fish to say the least.i hope to see some that size in the next year or so!
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 05/10/16 12:41 PM
Beautiful fish!

I see your pond is 3/4 acre. Any signs of crappie over populating or stunting in your pond? What other species are in the pond?
Posted By: ewest Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 05/10/16 01:08 PM
Nice fish ! What is the history of the pond?
Posted By: R&R Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 05/10/16 01:12 PM
Bill D. I need to update that I guess. That was a pond I had built at our previous residence. We have since sold that and live (In a pole barn, House in future)on 36 acres with a 10 acre pond. I have not gotten to the point of measuring and weighing all of my fish yet. But right now the fishing is good. I don't believe I've had a boom spawn yet. Too many plans to list and too many project's always in the way. Also not near enough money to go around. Other than the BCP it has LMB , BG , HBG , and GSF in it. Thanks Rob.
Posted By: slabman98 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 05/10/16 01:37 PM
Nice crappie!!
Posted By: esshup Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 05/10/16 10:52 PM
R&R, the deer still chowing down on the trees? wink
Posted By: R&R Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 05/11/16 11:17 AM
esshup , They aint hurtin me too bad really. I'm very pleased with there survival rate. I'll have to re-visit my post on that and do some before and after pics. You got a good memory scott.
Posted By: R&R Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 05/11/16 11:50 AM
Originally Posted By: ewest
Nice fish ! What is the history of the pond?


ewest , Built in 2006 (Not by me) We purchased in 2010. Realtor said "Fully Stocked" Previous owner said " My boys threw some bluegills in here from one of my other ponds". Seemed be overrun with GSF at the time. Thought I would kill it and start over. Didn't happen. I put about 25 6-8" LMB in from my pond. I let a buddy put 50 2" BCP in. Both in the Spring of 2011. Still thinking I would kill and start over.Had pretty thick Southern Niad. Put 30 Grass Carp in spring 2012. They have since wiped it out. Too much so. That pretty much is where its at. Catching Bass up to about 6 lbs now. Crappie seem to have not overrun YET. Still catch a few descent BG and the occasional GSF.
Posted By: ewest Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 05/11/16 01:42 PM
Thanks for the data. Do you see/catch many smaller BC ? What about small LMB?
Posted By: R&R Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 05/11/16 04:40 PM
Don't see or catch a lot of either one. I do remove Bass in the 8-14" range when I catch them. Of the 25 Crappie I caught this past weekend I only put one back. Less than 9" the rest were 11" plus. And this is the most I've gotten into ever on me. All were caught on a white beetle spin 4 lb test. Even a 21 1/2" 5 lb plus Bass. (That was fun!!)
Posted By: snrub Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 06/27/16 06:53 PM
Originally Posted By: R&R
Originally Posted By: ewest
Nice fish ! What is the history of the pond?


ewest , Built in 2006 (Not by me) We purchased in 2010. Realtor said "Fully Stocked" Previous owner said " My boys threw some bluegills in here from one of my other ponds". Seemed be overrun with GSF at the time. Thought I would kill it and start over. Didn't happen. I put about 25 6-8" LMB in from my pond. I let a buddy put 50 2" BCP in. Both in the Spring of 2011. Still thinking I would kill and start over.Had pretty thick Southern Niad. Put 30 Grass Carp in spring 2012. They have since wiped it out. Too much so. That pretty much is where its at. Catching Bass up to about 6 lbs now. Crappie seem to have not overrun YET. Still catch a few descent BG and the occasional GSF.


I'm guessing that means you are not going to kill the pond off and start over now. laugh

Some might say you just got lucky with your pond and they might be right.

I have pondered about luck a lot. I firmly believe people have a tendency to give plain old dumb luck too little credit for many of the successes in life. I have tended at times in my life to give dumb luck too little credit and made the assumption that the success was all my doings. That often led me to unsuccessful outcomes as my high opinion of my abilities outstripped my common sense.

Good luck is such a wonderful thing. If it were only more dependable I would have turned to it all the time by now. But it is just so undependable and it seems my luck improves with my intensity of application of initiative.

This is not specifically targeted at you R&R. Just ramblings thinking about the many stories I have enjoyed here on PBF. There are the stories where everything was planned and worked out according to plan, where everything was planned and still did not work out, and the ones I especially enjoy like your story where really nothing ended up going like you planned but it turned out pretty darned fantastic anyway.

Ya just never know.
Posted By: R&R Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 08/04/16 06:00 PM
snrub ,
You are so correct!!! Since purchasing this property I'm pretty sure not one single thing has went according to plan. But you know the older I get the more OK with that I am.

On a side note from an absolute amateur perspective. This is the first year of 6 owning this pond that it has not dropped more than an inch Due to timely rains here in southern Indiana. "I believe" for that reason I have had a much better survival rate amongst my BG fry. Makes sense to me anyway. What say you experts??
Thanks.
Posted By: dale k Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/22/17 08:49 PM
Sorry to Highjack. Couldn't find how to start a new thread. is there anyway to remove or kill all the crappie without damaging other fish. Going to build a new pond downstream of my old one.Just hate toloose my nice bass and mAGNUM BLUGILLS. I WILL TRY AND SAVE SOME.
tHANKS DALE
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/22/17 08:57 PM
daleK asks ""is there anyway to remove or kill all the crappie without damaging other fish." If you can figure that out you will become a millionaire or at least multiple of thousands in your pocket.
Posted By: Zep Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/22/17 09:00 PM
Originally Posted By: dale k
Sorry to Highjack. Couldn't find how to start a new thread.


Posted By: MRHELLO Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/25/17 11:25 PM
Any Crappie Updates?
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/26/17 02:08 AM
Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
Any Crappie Updates?


I'll throw in a topic for discussion. I've read in a few places that HSB and crappies MAY be a "marriage made in heaven." It seems there is some data that, do to the pelagic nature of both small crappies and HSB, that HSB are very effective at controlling crappie populations in smaller BOWs which in the past were considered too small to maintain a crappie population without stunting. I don't have a dog in this fight but I found the data intriguing. Comments?
Posted By: dlowrance Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/26/17 03:06 PM
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
Any Crappie Updates?


I'll throw in a topic for discussion. I've read in a few places that HSB and crappies MAY be a "marriage made in heaven." It seems there is some data that, do to the pelagic nature of both small crappies and HSB, that HSB are very effective at controlling crappie populations in smaller BOWs which in the past were considered too small to maintain a crappie population without stunting. I don't have a dog in this fight but I found the data intriguing. Comments?


I added HSB to my big pond 3 and 4 years ago (2 stockings) for this very purpose. At that time (and now as well) I didn't have any overpopulation/stunting issues, but with all the negative comments around BCP and that possibility I was trying to manage proactively.

As of today I STILL have exactly zero issues specific to BCP. I catch them regularly and have never caught a stunted one. All the BCP I catch are healthy, thick specimens. I keep track of every fish removed from the pond, and last year (2016) we took 263 BCP out. They taste awesome, are loads of fun to catch and at least in my case are a phenomenal pond fish.

Back to the point, I don't know if the HSB were necessary and if so how much they helped. When I look in the shallows around the pond I see plenty of YOY and Y2 size BCP as well as BG, but not what I'd call an 'overabundance'. The rare times I catch a HSB they look good - not great but good. I also have a healthy population of LMB so I believe I'm covered in the top end predator arena.
Posted By: RER Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/26/17 08:28 PM
dlowrance,
taking out over 250 adult BCP each year probably helps you stay ahead of the curve, I would think....
Posted By: RER Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/26/17 08:48 PM
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
Any Crappie Updates?


It seems there is some data that, do to the pelagic nature of both small crappies and HSB, that HSB are very effective at controlling crappie populations in smaller BOWs which in the past were considered too small to maintain a crappie population without stunting. I don't have a dog in this fight but I found the data intriguing. Comments?


I wonder if the "Palagic Nature" of small BCP would help feed the tarpon in my pond., I feel the CNBG and tilapia hug the shallows. IF they had a more open water fish they might fatten up some. Do small BCP tend to swim more out in the open water than either TP or cnbg?

sorry if this is a hijack,

it still relates to controlling crappy, :-)
Posted By: dlowrance Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/26/17 09:02 PM
Originally Posted By: BobbyRice
dlowrance,
taking out over 250 adult BCP each year probably helps you stay ahead of the curve, I would think....


Certainly true - The pond is around 7 acres with an average depth of 16'. So lots of room to roam. We don't fish very hard to take that many - that number was taken out in 11 days of fishing.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/27/17 01:01 AM
Originally Posted By: BobbyRice
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
Any Crappie Updates?


It seems there is some data that, do to the pelagic nature of both small crappies and HSB, that HSB are very effective at controlling crappie populations in smaller BOWs which in the past were considered too small to maintain a crappie population without stunting. I don't have a dog in this fight but I found the data intriguing. Comments?


I wonder if the "Palagic Nature" of small BCP would help feed the tarpon in my pond., I feel the CNBG and tilapia hug the shallows. IF they had a more open water fish they might fatten up some. Do small BCP tend to swim more out in the open water than either TP or cnbg?

sorry if this is a hijack,

it still relates to controlling crappy, :-)
Bobby my crappie are all over the pond, I catch them close to the surface in 15' water with no structure under them, so I know they like open water- at least in my puddle
Posted By: RER Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/27/17 03:17 PM
I'm torn on trying to add some to see if they breed. I might be just making it even harder to get established recruitment from the gsh by having larger BCP..IM not sure which would provide more YOY to be munched on, BCP or GSH.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/28/17 02:51 AM
Bobby I don't know if my crappie have spawne since the first spring when I first stocked them . I catch 8-9" ones but never see any small or large ones after 3 years. The ones I catch are thick looking but don't seem to grow much
Posted By: TGW1 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/28/17 01:56 PM
Hay Pat

Any chance the crappie spawn was eaten by the other crappie or the lmb?
With little to no growth seen in the crappie caught, I would think low forage numbers, and if that is the case, I might suspect a crappie spawn might feed the existing fish in the pond for a short time. Your thoughts? Are u still building the house?
Posted By: Snakebite Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/28/17 02:17 PM
Pat, what's your aquatic plant status in your pond? Since crappie prefer spawning in weed cover depending on your density they may be void of spawning.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/28/17 04:59 PM
The stockers spawned the first spring at 4-1/2" long cause late in the summer was catching 2-1/2" crappie. The parents got up to 12" that year then all I catch is 8-9" ones even now. They are not thin at all. Very little plant life at all. Now some weed of unknown variety.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/28/17 05:02 PM
Tracy
It's highly possible that they are being eaten by bass or catfish. See lots of activity in open water but not sure what it is

The house is prolly 80-90% complete. Staining trim is so much fun
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/05/18 08:19 PM
Update:
Moved in to house in may 2017, crappie still not overpopulated, catfish bout 5# now, group of shad young hanging out in middle getting hammered by something.
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 11/15/18 12:16 AM
Hey Pat,

Any update on your BCP?
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 11/15/18 12:59 AM
Bill can’t seem to catch any here lately. Water is very cloudy with a major bloom since mid summer. I haven’t tried live bait , just jigs fished every way I know how. Last ones caught this summer were the usual 8”.
Posted By: Flame Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 11/15/18 12:54 PM
Pat, I did a jar test on my pond. Only had 4-6 inch visibility. Thought it was algae bloom but after a week setting in the window seal of the house you can see the sand in the bottom of the jar and now I can see through the jar. I have more shoreline grass than I ever had but yet It is muddier than ever been!! Pond 10 inch low. Water temp yesterday morning at 8am was 53.8. I will check this morning at 8am again. Air temp right now is 27!!!
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 11/15/18 03:01 PM
James
I think mine is a bloom cause it’s been that way for several months before we started getting any rain. Only have 6-8” more water to be at full pool . Have not seen any sign of a successful BCP spawn again this year and this is going on 5 years. With only one spawn. The LMB are looking fatter this year due to more forage. It surprises me that so little is known about BCP ( unreliable spawns or overwhelming ones)
Posted By: TGW1 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 11/15/18 08:47 PM
Flame, I went through a similar situation last year. I asked Bill Cody for a water analysis and he came up with high numbers of detritus. But I had also added a microb to eat excess nutrients earlier in the year after returning from the PB Conference. This product had a green die also. And the water had a puki ugly green color, mistaking it for a bloom. I also discovered around that time that microbs can bloom or produce excess amounts of microbs. If I understood Bill Cody, it was hard sometimes to distinguish between microbs and detritus, so I never was sure what the actual problem was other than my water visibility sucked. So, what did I do? The pond was low all summer due to extreme drought and I figured if it was detritus the diffusers were kicking it up off the bottom. I reduced the run time and raised the diffusers 21" off bottom and that put the bubblier some 30" off bottom. I also treated the pond with alum/lime to reduce excess phosphates which I believed were high due to fertilization along with feeding. One or both of the changes I made cleared up the water to 36" for awhile and the water has been stable since with 24 to 26" olive green water. Hope this helps. Pat not sure u have diffusers but maybe water is high in phosphates.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 11/16/18 12:33 AM
TGW1 - I think you did some good and correct things to help reduce the problems causing your water clarity issues.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 11/16/18 11:15 AM
Bill, I could not have come up with a solution without your help. Wishing you a good Thanksgiving! And I would like to wish a Happy Thanksgiving to Rainman and Todd Overton with their alum/lime recommendations.
Posted By: ewest Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 11/16/18 04:46 PM
All the input and info (more data) and hard work led you to make wise decisions. Now that there are results it would be helpful to summarize the situation for others to learn. Well done , well done indeed.


My 2 cents is the lake was running at to high an RPM. New water and additions to water quality and fertility adjustments plus time paid off well.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 11/17/18 02:41 PM
Yep, Eric I could title it "How to screw up your pond water and then fix it" smile
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/16/19 11:46 AM
Well as of March of this year my BCP will have been in for 5 years with only one known spawn the same year as they were stocked.. caught some of the original stockers a year later (released them) at 12-14”. Since then have not caught any over 10”, most around 8”and not thin . Haven’t seen any small BCP at all. Was wondering if they had failed spawns every year or what is going on . Lots of LMB that are different age classes from 6” to 18-20”. Since BCP go pelagic soon after they are born wondering if the LMB are eating all or most of them . Cause I can catch LMB schoolies out in open water any time . There is lots of BG recruitment and seems to be lots of 1-2” around the shoreline. Any thoughts on why the largest offspring BCP are around 8-9” after 5 years? Any input would be appreciated
Posted By: Snipe Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/16/19 05:46 PM
I'll step out on a limb here and guess that's near the size the BCP are running up against the forage base wall, size-wise. They don't have proper sized forage to jump that stage. The energy needed to catch a smaller sized forage is exceeding the return in growth.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/16/19 09:17 PM
I have some shad and shiners also. The BCP do no look thin for their size
Posted By: Snipe Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/16/19 09:26 PM
Do you have length & weight available?? WR would be helpful to determine the stage of growth.
Although many other factors come in to play, Hard, vertical structure such as Reeds, brushpiles ect, seem to be a popular hangout for spawning crappie, and I guess I haven't looked back to study your impoundment but what types of cover/structure do you presently have?
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/16/19 09:48 PM
Seasonal pondweed and about an acre of flooded timber. Few brush piles in 6-8’ water, all together a little over 5acres. Had a good bloom all summer long until cold fronts slowed that down. Vis almost 24” now
Don’t have a scale to weigh them
Posted By: Snipe Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/16/19 09:56 PM
An acre of flooded timber pretty well covers the spawning habitat I'd guess.
I still have to go back to the basics..If the fish itself was not eaten, it will continue to grow at a rate that the available forage will support.
If summer water temp is not exceeding the comfort zone for BCP, then there is (I won't call it a problem just yet) an underlying issue present.
If you originally caught fish 12-14", something was present then, that isn't now. Conditions have changed.. find what changed or what's missing and why.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/17/19 12:19 AM
The original stockers are the ones that got that size, don’t know how old they were from the fishery , they were 4- 4 1/2” long when they spawned the first spring. So they may have died of old age.....
Posted By: TGW1 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/17/19 12:38 PM
Note to Pat. Get a fish scale for weighing your fish smile
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/17/19 12:41 PM
Originally Posted By: TGW1
Note to Pat. Get a fish scale for weighing your fish smile


+1 !!!

Come on Pat! Sell a couple bottles of that rot gut Falstaff and buy a scale! grin
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/17/19 04:35 PM
Bill do you realize what you are asking me to do! Lol we are so rural that I probably can’t find a scale within 100 miles
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/18/19 03:34 AM
Originally Posted By: Snipe
An acre of flooded timber pretty well covers the spawning habitat I'd guess.
I still have to go back to the basics..If the fish itself was not eaten, it will continue to grow at a rate that the available forage will support.
If summer water temp is not exceeding the comfort zone for BCP, then there is (I won't call it a problem just yet) an underlying issue present.
If you originally caught fish 12-14", something was present then, that isn't now. Conditions have changed.. find what changed or what's missing and why.


Snipe
Have heard the the original stockers grow real fast the first year or so then as they have offspring things slow as forage amount is adjusted due to increased amounts of new biomass.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/19/19 03:47 PM
Snipe plus the LMB that someone ore something stocked had an incredible spawn that year , decimating the BG YOY. Since everyone thinks that BCP go out to deeper water after they come off their nest , how is it that they are responsible for decimating YOY BG ? That question has been bugging me for a while. Anybody know the answer to that one?

Bill C please jump in, some of the older threads were very informative that you participated in.
Posted By: ewest Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/19/19 11:50 PM
There is a lot here on crappie. One big issue is spawning. Some studies provide that a female may have over 200,000 eggs/offspring a year.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/20/19 02:45 AM
Eric there are a lot of threads here and I have read a bunch of them. From what I can gather they are a hit or miss with their spawn. So far I think mine have been decimated by the YOY LMB . Seems like there is more not known than is known about them other than that they can overpopulate , as can BG and LMB. I guess it’s the old axiom It just depends.
Posted By: Snipe Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/20/19 04:34 AM
First stocking can produce best size, yes, if proper forage is present.
If Proper habitat is present I would think you would see some sort of continued representation of BCP. If only a few make it to a size such that they escape predation, they will/should grow if proper food (size and quantity) is available.
If you're seeing fish max out at 8-9" and not many of them, my opinion is they don't have suitable forage and are likely a source of food for other species. Maybe water clarity is not as good as it was in the beginning??
When I said "something was present that isn't now", I meant some condition or multiple of is different.
If you don't have an abundance of sunfish of any species present, I'm going to say they are being utilized heavily-by something.
There is an element present that we aren't seeing or isn't standing out readily visible.
It could be water quality isn't optimum, but I think it's lower in the food chain where the issue is, but why?
Some WR's of everything you can sample would be a great help in starting to figure something out.
Maybe the Guru's have something to add that I'm not seeing.
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/20/19 01:05 PM
Hey Pat,

Do you think your LMB might be over eating your forage base? I've seen you post about catching some pretty nice LMB. Have you been harvesting a significant number of them to keep their population in check?
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/20/19 06:55 PM
Snipe there are plenty of BG at feeder ranging from 6-10” and 1-2”around bank. Don’t ever see 3-4” - thinking LMB are cropping them and anything else that size.

Bill I think there are too many LMB and have had them take BCP that are on my line. Have been told that to manage BCP you have to leave all LMB..... not sure how that’s working . A large LMB 6-8# can wolf down about any BCP I would think. Any ideas
Have not removed any LMB
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/20/19 11:01 PM
Pat,

IMHO your assessment is probably correct. Too many LMB. You might be on the way in the future to having a pond with a few big LMB, a whole bunch of stunted ones and not much else. I subscribe to the philosophy that you must periodically assess your pond and develop an appropriate harvest plan to keep the pond in "balance." From the info provided, I would aggressively harvest 14 inch and smaller LMB in your pond.

Not a pro...just my 1 cent.
Posted By: Snipe Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/20/19 11:54 PM
Pat, that would most definitely pose an issue if you're not pulling any LMB. I would venture a guess and say every size of LMB present is cleaning house on everything else.
I still feel a WR on a good sample size of all species present would show something..
I would agree on pulling some LMB but I would be careful not to unload and shock the system. 12-15 per acre would be a good start I would think.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/21/19 12:23 AM
You’re probably correct. I need to try to find a digital battery scale and weigh everything I catch. No variety of fish looks thin . Any ideas where to find a scale.
Posted By: ewest Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/21/19 12:27 AM
No doubt that over abundant LMB will eat everything in sight. So will crappie. Generally speaking the more species present the harder to maintain balance. the more info one can get the better and clearer the pic becomes.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/21/19 12:31 AM
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Pat,

IMHO your assessment is probably correct. Too many LMB. You might be on the way in the future to having a pond with a few big LMB, a whole bunch of stunted ones and not much else. I subscribe to the philosophy that you must periodically assess your pond and develop an appropriate harvest plan to keep the pond in "balance." From the info provided, I would aggressively harvest 14 inch and smaller LMB in your pond.

Not a pro...just my 1 cent.


Funny Bill when I started this pond thing with BCP I was told not to harvest any LMB to offset the BCP..... seems the only thing spawning is BG and LMB.
Caught 19 LMB in about 30 minutes (10”) while trying to catch BCP. Caught 4 today in 10’ water were I normally get BCP.
Posted By: Snipe Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/21/19 01:07 AM
Pat, I use a digital postal scale. Pretty sure I found mine at wallyworld. I use a plastic bowl (large) and just zero with it on scale. I also prefer Grams and mm over ounces and inches. about 500 times more accurate..
Posted By: TGW1 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/21/19 02:30 PM
I am using the Berkley digital fish scales. I am sure there are better ones out there but the Berkley scales are pretty simple to use. Bass pro shop or Cabela's is a good place to look for scales.
Posted By: Redonthehead Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/21/19 02:41 PM
Here is a link to a nice spreadsheet relative weight calculator for BCP along with automatic charting. Inputs are in inches and pounds.

http://texasprolakemanagement.com/blog/relative-weight-calculators
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/21/19 04:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Snipe
Pat, that would most definitely pose an issue if you're not pulling any LMB. I would venture a guess and say every size of LMB present is cleaning house on everything else.
I still feel a WR on a good sample size of all species present would show something..
I would agree on pulling some LMB but I would be careful not to unload and shock the system. 12-15 per acre would be a good start I would think.


So remove some LMB to give more forage for BCP.... so what size LMB should I take out? Seem to have an abundance of 10” . But I’m fishing for BCP with small jigs so maybe targeting that size.... or all sizes
Posted By: Snipe Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/21/19 05:03 PM
8-14" would be my recommendation. Probably heavier on the 8-10" size.
I would still HIGHLY recommend you get a postal scale, weigh ALL fish in grams and record length in mm. anything with cm has everything you need for mm. PM me any numbers you have and we'll plug'em in and get ya your WR's.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/21/19 06:14 PM
Not sure about measuring in mm, al my stuff is in inches..... I’m old school. I’m gonna order a scale
Posted By: Snipe Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/21/19 06:38 PM
A sewing tape measure glued or stapled to a board is a great way to do this. Inches is for a general idea, mm is for accurate data.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/24/19 12:39 PM
I have added two of those aluminum L shaped measuring boards as structure to the bottom of my pond. Not on purpose mind you. Its like dam, there goes another one overboard as I watch it all shiny and glimmering as it slowly sinks to the ponds bottom. It always seem to be done during the winter months where I won't jump in and swim down to the bottom for retrieval. Now if I was to build a weigh and measure station on board of the boat I would probably knock it overboard. Dam it!
Posted By: Bill D. Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/24/19 12:56 PM
LOL!

I'm thinking I would drill a hole in the next one and tether it to the boat! grin
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/24/19 03:08 PM
Tracy you have BCP?
Posted By: TGW1 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/25/19 12:02 PM
No BCP Pat. just checking RW's on the lmb or HSB when I lost the measuring boards. Bill D, good recommendation on tying the measuring board to the boat. smile
Posted By: TGW1 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/29/19 01:36 PM
Pat, I suspect we are getting close to the spawning season of BCP. It won't be long from now when our water temps will be in the 58 to 68 range. My fishing experience tells me they might move up pretty soon. I am not sure how they will react to the full moon this coming Feb. 19th but it would not surprise me if spawning takes place then as the water warms up after a couple of our 70 degree days. So, do you think adding shallow cover, like cedars along the shoreline, would help survival of the fry? I added 9 brush piles along the shoreline at my pond and it did help out with the bg survival and I would think it might do the same with bcp fry. Maybe thicker cover instead of standing timber might help the fry survival?
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/29/19 02:40 PM
Originally Posted By: TGW1
Pat, I suspect we are getting close to the spawning season of BCP. It won't be long from now when our water temps will be in the 58 to 68 range. My fishing experience tells me they might move up pretty soon. I am not sure how they will react to the full moon this coming Feb. 19th but it would not surprise me if spawning takes place then as the water warms up after a couple of our 70 degree days. So, do you think adding shallow cover, like cedars along the shoreline, would help survival of the fry? I added 9 brush piles along the shoreline at my pond and it did help out with the bg survival and I would think it might do the same with bcp fry. Maybe thicker cover instead of standing timber might help the fry survival?


What I can gather about BCP fry is that they move out into open water as soon as they are off the nest. If that is the case then the yoy LMB are probably decimating them at some point. I wish the gurus would weigh in
So far this winter I have only caught a few in deep water right on the bottom. We will see when they start to move in to shallow water. They are hard to pattern
Posted By: TGW1 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/30/19 12:48 PM
Pat, I am always learning new stuff when it comes to our ponds and the fish/animals that live in and around them. smile I looked up BCP on Wikipedia and it said the fry would move into cover first. But, Dammed if I know, I am definitely no bcp expert lol
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 01/30/19 02:50 PM
Tracy that would make more sense for them to go to cover first but every thing I read on here indicates that they move out to open water where they can filter feed. Problem is that shiners can eat them at that stage ..... least that’s what I read on here. Beginning to think that there is very little known about them
Posted By: ewest Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/01/19 02:44 AM
Its way to cold for crappie to be near spawning !!

What is your question and I will try to find a peer reviewed answer?

Crappie in lakes spawn in 20 ft +- feet of water near brush if possible. I have some info on crappie spawning.
Posted By: jludwig Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/01/19 01:41 PM
Originally Posted By: ewest
Crappie in lakes spawn in 20 ft +- feet of water near brush if possible. I have some info on crappie spawning.


Can you post this when you get a chance?
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/01/19 03:32 PM
Originally Posted By: ewest
Its way to cold for crappie to be near spawning !!

What is your question and I will try to find a peer reviewed answer?

Crappie in lakes spawn in 20 ft +- feet of water near brush if possible. I have some info on crappie spawning.


Eric I would love to pick your brain about BCP. As you know I have a 5 ac pond with over an ac of flooded timber and brush ( yaupon) and other brushy trees that was flooded in the creek bottom. So thick that you can’t hardly paddle a small boat in there. The main body is 13-15’ deep with some stumps with root ball. We going on 5 years after crappie were stocked . They spawned the first year but after that haven’t seen much sign of any future spawns. I have LMB, BC,CC,CNBG GSH and a few threadfin. The first year the crappie grew to 12” and caught a few of them ( released). Since then they seem to be about 8-10” long and holding. Have never caught any small crappie. My question is : are the crappie spawning and none are surviving or what the deal is. Also have tons of 8”-10”LMB that work the open water over (I catch them). From what I read in old threads here that yoy BCP move to open water and not brush..... I’m confused as to what actually doe happen.
Posted By: TGW1 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/02/19 01:44 PM
What are the water temps that BCP prefer to spawn in? I understand they may be the first to move up to spawn. Then again I thought the Bg would be the first to move up to spawn. I don't know the answer. I'm pretty sure that Bob Lusk has said we might get a Bg spawn after a few warm days of Feb here in E. Texas. So, yesterday I spent some time at the pond checking out the water temps, not for BCP spawn because I don't have any. I was just checking for the bg. The Temps were 52 from 3' to the surface and 48 to 49 from below 3' to 9'. I would check deeper but my probe cord is only 9' long. My water depths are 10' in one section and 12' in another section divided by an under water ridge or road bed. And Pat, every time I have Overton's out for a fish delivery they will get water temps and my temps always run the same as theirs. I bring this up because you are really close to Overton's Fishery and I would suspect the temps are pretty much the same. And we are starting a week of 70 degree weather today and that will increase water temps some.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/03/19 03:37 AM
Tracy I think they spawn at 58-68 degrees in the spring , or so they say.
Posted By: Snipe Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/03/19 06:01 AM
The males tend to show up shallow first, usually around 63-65 degs. Females make runs up shallow, then back out deeper in stages. around 68 degs they have usually began spawning but just like everything else, weather, cold fronts, water clarity and length of day all have to come together at the right time. Last summer we caught spawning crappie in one res in NW KS for literally 2 months, but never big numbers on a given day.
I will say every lake is different but here, we see crappie spawning in 2-5ft of water with generally 3ft vis. You have to have the right structure in the right depth in any lake. Water conditions can change that depth considerably from one year to another.
Most years we find them holding-prespawn-in 15-18', when it's game on they will be likely in 4' if conditions, habitat, etc are right. Males of both Black and white turn black before spawn and can stay that way for several months, females have no color change.
Posted By: ewest Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/03/19 03:49 PM
Here is the archive with links on Crappie. So much there it is hard to analyze. That is why crappie are often referred to as an enigma. More specific links to follow.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92447#Post92447

General info

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post207073
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/04/19 04:04 AM
Thanks Eric have read one thread and on the last one
Posted By: ewest Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/04/19 04:54 PM
I am still looking for the post on crappie spawning.
Posted By: ewest Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/05/19 10:01 PM
Population Characteristics of Black Crappies in
South Dakota Waters: A Case for Ecosystem-
Specific Management
Christopher S. Guy & David W. Willis
To cite this article: Christopher S. Guy & David W. Willis (1995) Population
Characteristics of Black Crappies in South Dakota Waters: A Case for Ecosystem-Specific
Management, North American Journal of Fisheries Management, 15:4, 754-765, DOI:
10.1577/1548-8675(1995)015<0754:PCOBCI>2.3.CO;2


Black crappies commonly overpopulated small
South Dakota impoundments. Some authors have
suggested that crappies overpopulate small impoundments
because recruitment is relatively consistent
(Bums 1956; Jenkins 1958). Thus, growth,
size structure, and condition are poor in small impoundments
overpopulated with black crappies.
Gabelhouse (1984a) and Boxrucker (1987) found
that a high-density population of large mouth bass,
composed primarily of individuals less than 30 cm
long, could reduce crappie recruitment such that
surviving crappies reached sizes of interest to anglers.
Guy and Willis (1990, 1991b) documented
reduced recruitment of bluegills Lepomis macrochirus
and yellow perch in small South Dakota
impoundments with high-density largemouth bass
populations. They suggested that fisheries managers
could manage for quality bluegill and yellow
perch fisheries in small South Dakota impoundments
by maintaining a high-density largemouth
bass population, with most largemouth bass less
than 30 cm. We surmise that high-quality black
crappie populations could be developed in small
South Dakota impoundments containing a highdensity
largemouth bass population. However, the
habitat must be appropriate to establish a highdensity
largemouth bass population (Guy and Willis
1991c). Guy and Willis (1994) stated that crappie
populations in South Dakota's large reservoirs
and natural lakes were influenced primarily by environmental
factors.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/08/19 09:25 PM
Interesting information I have a large population of LMB but my BCP is declining probably due to the large LMB and 8-10” and smaller.i would prefer to have more BCP than LMB but looks like the other way around at this point. Any ideas how to juggle the numbers to get a few more BCP or wait til they have a good spawn
Posted By: jgr Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/09/19 12:05 AM
Pat, I have exactly the same situation. My BCP are 12+in. and not many smaller and lots of LMB. We do harvest most all LMB less than 14 in. Maybe that's backwards and we should be harvesting the larger bass. I am not sure how well our BCP spawn but our LMB have no issues with that at all. I am considering adding some 8+ in. BCP this spring but that may be counter productive if I can't figure out the problem.
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/09/19 01:30 AM
I knew there was someone out there that liked BCP. Lol they are hard to figure out but I’m hoping to get them figured out eventually. We gonna need all the brains out here to do this. Maybe someone with experience with BCP can help us out with what to remove or add as far as LMB. I also have CC and BC that are 5-7#
Posted By: jgr Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 02/09/19 01:56 AM
We also have CC, with the largest caught was last fall at 13.5 lb. Our pond is a 10 A. rock quarry. The one thing that has always confused me is any time we catch a BCP they are very healthy and nothing thin like we catch in the Mississippi or lakes near us. Our BG are different age classes to show good recruitment over the years. The last few years we have added a lot of structure both in shallow and deep water but does not seem to help our BCP. From what I read maybe we should consider ourselves lucky but in 10 years nothing has changes with our Crappies.
Posted By: mattmonster1991 Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 03/04/19 06:50 PM
Originally Posted By: Pat Williamson
Bill D
My pond if it ever fills up will be 5ac+- hard to say with the seasonal creek. Right now 5' low and 10' deep


Esshup....... Shame on you! Lol they such purdy fish


so your saying your 5 acre pond has a creek flowing into it? arnt u afraid of trahs fish ruining it?like bullheads gsf bowfin gar ect
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: BCP MANAGEMENT IDEAS - 03/04/19 07:56 PM
Nah it’s a seasonal creek only nothing but sand.... water at times
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