Hey guys I have a question on the dynamics that occur within the pond when supplemental stocking is done.

Years ago I did an experiment where I had an African ciclid in one aquarium and a BG in the other. When I placed the BG in the ciclid's tank, the ciclid attacked the BG relentlessly until I had to remove it before it was dead. The BG did not fight back. A few weeks later, when the fish had recovered, I placed the ciclid into the BG tank. Same result except this time the BG was the aggressor and nearly killed the ciclid. When I placed both fish into a "new" tank at the same time they pretty much ignored each other.

In a pond does the same thing happen to some extent when new fish are added to the pond? Is there some fatalities to the new additions due to territorial behavior?

Thanks!

Bill years ago I was into African cichlids and had a pet shop what you say is true but if you mix up the rocks and such in the tank everybody has to start fresh. I don't know if a pond works that way due to its large size but I would think that the prime spots would be defended just like in an aquarium setting to a degree. Interesting to think about.

Pat W

Thanks Pat. Sounds right. Probably the smaller the pond the more likely it would occur. Thanks also for correcting my spelling on cichlid. It didn't look right but figured you guys would know what I meant.

There is definitely terretorial behavoir among fish in a pond but it depends on the species and time of year and of course density. When I pellet fed up to 400 largemouth bass up to 6 lbs. in a .62 acre pond I had individuals that would be very aggressive with the other bass. It was like a guy in a bar just looking for someone to fight. In my trout pond I try to scatter the feed so I don't miss some of the fish as some don't appear to be allowed in certain area.

Bill
I wonder if u you added alittle cover like sinking. Cedar trees in the area that you added new fish that would cut down on possible territorial fighting untill the new guys got established in the area. In an aquarium environment if you don't mix things up and rearrange rocks and plants a little some species will actually kill one another


Pat W

Pat,

A little background on my pond ...

1/4 acre built in fall 2013 (3 to 9 feet depth) and expanded a little in July 2014. Plan to expand more in 2015 and go to 12 feet on addition.

Stocked with 500 or so FHM April 2014
Once the FHM were spawning well, stocked 75 BG 2 to 6 inches thru June
Also added 15 CC 8 to 10 inches

In July a friend gave me 6 YP 3 to 5 and 1 WE 8 in (WE added as a novelty catch)

In August added 5 SMB 8 to 10 (Took these cause they were free. Pond will have LMB as top predator in the future. SMB will be a novelty catch). Also 1 Drum and 1 RKB added for novelty catch.

Currently lots and lots of FHM and BG fry

Fall stocking plan for this week

100 PS 2 to 3
10 LMB 5 to 8
5 LBS FHM
25 YP 5 to 7

Currently there is little vegetation. (I am working with Bill Cody on the vegetation plan for next spring.) Cover is several brush piles and logs.

I figure if any territorial battles occur during the upcoming stocking, probably due mostly to the small pond size and lack of vegetation cover, it would be the BG not happy about the introduction of PS. Hopefully, the lower water temps and the relatively small size of the PS will make it a non-issue.

Bill
My pond is about5 ac. I put 50lbs FHM in 800 CNBG 200RES this spring then someone bucket stocked some LMB. They have spawned this spring and have eaten up all the FHM and I don't see any YOY CNBG oh I also put in 300 BNC . I would make sure the BG get a head start breeding before adding the dreaded LMB s. Lol I like bass but timing is the key to adding those eating machines.

Pat W

Hopefully the earlier stocking of the few larger BG will keep me with some fry. One of the beauties of my small little pond, and there are many (even if in my eyes only!), I can restock my forage at a relatively small expense. I am thinking stocking the larger YP and the small PS may take some pressure off the BG and FHM. If a few PS survive to spawn I figure I am ahead of the game. Everybody says the FHM will disappear as time goes by but I am going to try to maintain a population to support the YP as I love to eat YP!. Any suggestions on cover that will help that FHM goal along?

Of course all the stocking numbers I gave you are minus GBH neighbor's take!

Lots of territorial behavior. There's also cuckolding by satellite male BG's.

Dave,

That's my concern. Hopefully, by stocking smaller PS those cock BG will overlook their intrusion. If I see lots of tattered PS I will let you know.

Bill, if you stock LMB, expect to see a majority of the forage AND the YP disappear in a few years. They are eating machines!!!! In a 1/4 ac pond, I would really recommend looking at leaving it a SMB only as a top predator (along with the CC if you don't keep them under 3# each) or I would add HSB and make sure I have a feeding program in place.

Esshup,

Thanks for the input. Will the SMB have a large enough mouth gap to keep the BG and PS from stunting? Will they target the YP as the preferred diet?

How many SMB should I stock and what size? Keep in mind I have 5 already.

They may not keep the BG in check, but TJ is keeping them in check in his SMB/HSB pond.

A client stocked around 80 SMB (I think that's the number) in a 1 ac pond, that already had a population of RES and YP. 15 10"+ smb 6 mos or so after stocking around 60 SMB 4"-6". IIRC 2-3 years ago.

There were FHM and GSH also in the pond, along with crayfish. A survey this year showed the SMB are overeating their forage base, and are running anywhere from low 70% to upper 80% Relative weight. The smaller fish are OK RW wise, but anything over 9" or so is underweight. The SMB aleady pulled off at least one spawn, and I think the first spawn is showing the low RW. The larger SMB that were stocked were all tagged and no tagged fish were caught and weighed.

In a small pond, it's relatively easy to adjust fish populations, and keeping good records of fish length and weights is your best tool to keep track of how the fish are doing in your pond. Bill Cody is much better at figureing out fish stocking rates for SMB/YP than I am, but "bucket stocking" as you are is the wild card.

Since the hatchery is supposed to call me today to arrange a pickup time, I need to make a quick decision.

I have the 5 SMB now. The hatchery I am using is Keystone and they do not have HSB.

Since the pond is so young, should I maybe just drop the LMB from my order and just stock the PS, FHM and YP for now? Maybe bump up the YP from 25 to ?

You can always add the predators later based on what type of forage production you are seeing and your ultimate goals. You may decide to change your goals for predators over the winter after doing more homework. Since you have the 5 SMB I would stick with SMB as main predator and later add more SMB andor some HSB. LMB can always be added much later if you are not happy with results of the SMB/HSB predator base. The SMB will likely spawn in spring of 2015 or 2016. Monitor those offspring and then make changes.

Thanks Bill,

Since HSB is not an option at Keystone, would you just go with the 100 PS, 5 lbs FHM and 25 YP for this fall's stocking plan?

If you want the main panfish to be YP and you can get pellet trained YP you can add up to 100 of the 5"-7" size or split or blend the new YP to 4"-6" and 5"-7". This will allow a YP harvest of 15-25 next fall when some of the YP should be 8"-11". HSB can always be added later at any time as 5"-7" stockers that are often available in fall. I would increase the FHM to 15-20 lbs if you increase the YP numbers.

Thanks Bill and Esshup for the advice.

The decision is in.....

50 YP 5 to 7 (May only be 25 if more are not available at this late date. Keystone said they would try)

5 lbs FHM
100 PS 2 to 3

will be stocked this fall.

Bill, where are you in the state? I am delivering a bunch of YP to Greenville IL soon and would be glad to meet you. YP are readily available. I am also picking up HSB...

I am near Belvidere. About 4 mile East of Rockford....A long way from Greenville

Consider bumping the FHM up to 10 or more pounds if only 5 lbs now and then add some in spring to insure a FHM spawn. It is important to stock pellet trained YP or FHM will always be in very short supply until the bass are added. Even the 5 SMB you now have will readily eat FHM from now until May. How bid were those 5 SMB?

The SMB were 8 to 10 inch when I put them in late August

Rainman, I'm interested in those YP, and I'm a couple counties southeast of Greenville. I would have stocked them originally but didn't know of a supplier. Are they still an option for my pond? Pond is a little over 2 years old, is 1 acre, and has a max depth of 14ft. I've added some cover. It was stocked w/HBG and RES. Both are doing exceptionally well, and there has been recruitment--too much I sometimes fear. I feed by hand every time I'm down there, which is daily spring thru fall. Last Dec, I added 38 WE and 40 SMB (I only ordered 25 of ea but received extra). I still have an unbelievable amount of FHM. WE are doing very well, but I'm unsure of the SMB.

Bill D. Those 5 smallies could easily eat 1000-1200 FHM from now to the end of May 2015. FHM are easy for a bass to catch. This does not include what the YP would eat. FHM at 2" are about 300 fish per pound. This is the detail of estimated FHM eaten by each smallie per month: Nov 20, Jan 10, Feb 10, Mar 20, Apr 70, May 100.

Do you think the 2 to 3 inch PS are too big for the SMB?

With FHM in the pond I think the SMB will focus on eating FHM; PS should be pretty safe until FHM are few numbers. Predators often tend to feed on a certain food type (usually what is most abundant) until it becomes in short supply & harder to locate then they switch to alternative foods. FHM are cheaper than PS which is why I suggested adding more FHM.

If Keystone has them I will bump up the FHM to 10 lbs when I pick up the fish on Wednesday. If they have enough YP to bump my order to 50 from 25, I will bump the FHM to 15 lbs. Sound right?

Hand sort the FHM. Take your time, small batches, have aeration, take breaks, invite friends and teach them how to id FHM from BG, BH or other invasives to help relieve pressure. This is your one chance to make a fatal mistake, take your time, sort deliberately.

Or...

Dump all 15 G and have a beer while you watch them disperse throughout the pond and pray.

So yelling into the bag "Anybody not a FHM raise your fin" is not an approved sorting technique?

Why didn't I think of that?

Hey at least our techniques of sorting are similar....both involve beer!

Serious though, don't reputable hatcheries have quality control measures in place to insure their customers get what they order and no "extras?"

First, define reputable.

Good point.

I guess the best we can do is rely on forums like this. Unfortunately, human nature is to complain about the bad. I suspect members report most often those times when they got "extras" and do not report near as often the many more times when they got all great healthy fish.

Is there room in a forum like this for a topic on rating hatcheries based on personal experiences?

Thinking about it a little more, reviewing a hatchery is not like reviewing a coffee pot you buy at Amazon. With a coffee pot you can take it home and instantly know whether you get good coffee. With a hatchery, a year or two down the road when that GSF of BH shows up is when you know things did not go that well. To establish a meaningful database, you would need committment from members to follow up on their reviews over a period of time. Not an easy task.

Also, with the varying nature of some ponds, how to tell for sure? If you happen to have a high water event that brings water over the ground into your pond, (or even out of your pond to another BOW or stream), how can you tell for 100% certainty that the GSF, Bullheads, Common Carp, etc. didn't get washed or swim into your pond when you notice them 2 years later? (Yes, that is a LONG question. )

Bill - FHM orders are most sensitive on cool water species ponds - where apex predators have a limited gape. YP, SMB, WE, HSB fisheries are vulnerable to invasives like BG, BH, CC, etc. because their gape limits their ability to prey on advanced sizes of these fish. I would not worry nearly as much in a BG/LMB fishery hand sorting FHM - but a cool water fishery purposely omitting BG can be ruined by just a couple mistakes.

I have stocked FHM from Arkansas Pond Stockers - fish truck when I was a wee pondmeister 8 years ago - and now have a permanent BH population in my main pond fishery.

I stocked FHM from a very reputable hatchery from MN who supplies 90% of all FHM and Shiners in NE and IA. I was assured their cells contained nothing invasive, but even these had at least a few BG and BH. I ordered 10,000+ for my trophy YP/BG pond, and had to drain, seine, and nuke with lime a few weeks ago due to BG infiltration and reproduction. It's sad to see thousands of grass shrimp, fathead minnows, and crayfish obliterated - the result of two years worth of forage base management down the tubes only to start all over again from scratch. TWO female BG caused this...and they came from the minnow stocking.

For cool water species fisheries, the risk outweighs the effort of hand sorting FHM or any high qty fish stocking. I've blown it twice, and even I'm not that obstinate to risk it again.

TJ, sorry about the infestation. IIRC, you have access to water. Did you let rains refill the pond, or did you refill it from your well? Also, how long did you let the lime set before you refilled?

Hey TJ,

Thanks for the good advice. I will sort the FHM.

Question on your post. I am missing something I know. You said 2 female BG infested your YP/BG pond. What was different about the 2 from the BG you already have in the pond that caused the problem?

Several years ago I found way too many shiners mixed with other fish from a supposedly reputable hatchery that raises their own.

No watershed/runoff, top ponds all irrigated through well water only.

Lime sat for 2 weeks before refilling. Got PH up to 12.4 and the shrimp/crays/fhm were hopping onto the bank to escape the water. It was unbelievably brutal to witness 2 years of effort destroyed in 15 minutes.

I could have probably refilled immediately since I got water level down to a few inches, and the PH would have dropped naturally getting mixed with all the new well water. But I wanted to let it sit for a few days and so I could record some of the carnage. The coons and birds made quick work of nearly everything in 24 hrs, so I wasn't able to record how many, if any, YOY BG were in the mix.

This .35 AC pond is female YP and male BG fishery - designed to grow trophies only with heavy supplemental feeding program and several layers of forage base [crayfish, grass shrimp, fhm]. If a single male YP or female BG are introduced my goals are toast - due to reproduction. I had no clue what was going on initially - just that I trapped a YOY BG in a minnow trap about 8 weeks ago. The land is still scorched where I found that 1" BG. I suspected the worst, hoped for the best, but running a net around the margins yielded a few more yoy BG. Sigh.

I knew I had no choice but to drain, seine, and nuke. During seining, sure enough, we found two female BG - about 4-5", and one 8" BH. Will never know full qty of YOY BG as everything was cleaned up after lime treatment - though not sure I would have sifted through thousands of decomposing FHM to count BG anyhow. My guess is the young female BG were stocked Fall 2013 or Spring 2014 and had a very light spawn, and most recruitment was limited by heavy YP predation. Next year, however, imagine those female BG getting up to 7-8" and dropping 80,000 eggs 3 times over the Summer! Stunted BG and fishery exceeding carrying capacity. Figured it was far easier to reset now than wait for the inevitable.

I caged the BG and YP [the ones that escaped the GBH carnage during low water levels] I could salvage and have refilled the pond and started stocking grass shrimp last night. Several BG had major GBH wounds - I'm sure I lost several nice fish during the drawdown period. Still not sure if I'll wait until Spring to reintroduce BG and YP or not. I think I'll hand sort a few light orders of FHM yet this fall and wait until March to stock BG, and YP will go in June/July to allow FHM a few spawns.

Important to note - all YP appeared sub 100 WR, while BG averaged around 110-120 WR. Cody hypothesized the YP were bullied out of the feeding zone by the bull gills, and never entirely took to FHM feeding due to their feed trained nature. My goals of a trophy YP/BG fishery may not be possible in light of this...but I'm giving it another try but will stock 50% non feed trained YP this time around and see if it make a difference.

Another note - the original 75 crayfish stocked had a significant and unsuspected impact on the fishery. We removed at least 2500 - 3000 adult crayfish - so they did very well with lack of apex predator which could prey upon adults. Also, my american pondweed and chara was 100% denuded in the pond, which I never thought I'd see happen. Lastly, the high population of crayfish rendered a somewhat turbid cast which always mystified me - clarity was around 24-30" most of the year which was puzzling as it's 100% well fed and normally clarity of 50"+. Now I know, the crays were stirring up the bottom foraging - maybe for uneaten pellets. Still debating on whether to stock crayfish again or not. If I do, I might add 5 female SMB to graze on the crays, maybe 5-10 WE, too.

Sorry for the hijack, I've been meaning to post this for some time, just now had a few minutes.

TJ, I think you are on the right track with the BG/YP, but if you want the FHM to survive the SMB onslaught you problbly should stock 12+ fish.

Flip side of the coin. If they are feed trained, they'll be the bullies until satiation.

I want to stock some of these red shiners in the trophy pond...max 3-4" and prolific spawners - will help relieve some pressure off the FHM population. Now I have to source these suckers...closest supplier is NC or TX, and can't get a hold of TX.

Hey TJ,

Well I sorted the fish I got yesterday per your advice. The YP were all in good shape and no stowaways in the bag. The PS were ok with 5 tadpoles as stowaways. The FHM took quite a while to go thru. Did not find any GSF, BH etc but did find approximately 5 to 10% were stickleback, not FHM. Right or wrong, I went ahead and stocked the stickleback. Hope that wasn't a rookie mistake!

I would have left the stickleback out, they are very good at hiding in places that predators can't get to. I don't think the will be a problem but they will take up some biomass that could be better used elsewhere.

Stickles won't impact fishery IMO - I stock them too. Look like YOY WE, don't they? 5-10% stickles is way too high, you should mention it to your supplier and request a partial refund. I know I'd refund a customer of mine.

Well done, you can sleep well at night, provided you in fact did ID every minnow...it can get tiring, and urge to get lazy near the end of the process with frozen fingers can become quite strong, at least in my experience. Good job on the stocking, and thanks for keeping us in the loop.

Frozen fingers is right! I used a two step process. After I dumped the bag into a tub I used a small bait bucket size net to fish some out and then spread these into a large skimmer net in a single layer to view better.

I also yelled into the bag "Anybody here not a FHM raise a fin." Apparently, stickleback do not speak English cause they did not come forward.

I remember seining the creek for minnows when I was a kid. Stickleback were so cool. They looked prehistoric to me. Always thought they would be great as the sea monster in one of those old horror movies where they used closeups of lizards, etc as the monsters.

I did send an e-mail to the hatchery letting them know how high a percentage I found. I will let you know if they reply.

Hey Shorty,

You bring up an interesting point. The stickleback are more elusive than the FHM. I am wondering whether that is a bad thing or a good thing. Once the FHM have been ravaged by hungry predators, is it good too have some minnows a little harder to catch left in reserve? Also, do stickleback reproduce in a pond? I always thought of them as a shallow stream fish.

With smallies and YP, I think it'll be no big deal.

Sticklebacks reproduce well I a pond which is why they were in with the FHM. Sticklebacks in with FHM very likely come from north central US ponds that often freeze out and are used for minnow production.

If your hungry predators have a hard time utilizing sticklebacks, is that a good thing or bad?

I overwintered five RES in an aquarium last year and fed them FHM, they would eat 16-24 small FHMs a day. I would occasionally get a few sticklebacks that I would have to remove when I did water changes. They were elusive enough in the aquarium that they never got eaten. They were very good at hiding and avoiding predation. The spiny fins on sticklebacks may have also played some role.