So my father recently completed a 3 acre pond on his land. I uploaded the pictures on the forums awhile back if you want to see what it looks like. This pond was dug in a pasture with no inflow. It has a 14" berm all the way around it. The pond was filled with well water over the course of 2 months. 11-01-13 to 12-19-13. Bream and fatheads put in 12-29-13. 1" to 1.5" bass put in 06-07-14. A few weeks ago we started fishing a bit (catch and release) to see how large the Bream were. We were catching some very nice ones and even some 10 inch bass. After catching one particularly large bream I noticed the mouth on it was rather large for its body. Also, it was elongated instead of round... then it hit me.... GSF. I ran to the forums and did a google image search and sure enough GSF got in somehow.

Here are the four best guesses how this happened:

1. The pond is now one year old. It was dug and filled with well water. There was a puddle at the bottom of the pond but we never saw any action on it and there had never been a pond here before. The puddle was about 2'x6' and 1' deep. It was rainwater. No in-flow from any other source. I really don't think there could have been any fish in there. No way to get in.

2. The levee overflowed in the spring for a few hours from a very heavy rainfall. The water was bout 1/2" deep running over the levee in two places. There is a drainage ditch for the pastures behind the pond. Could the GSF swim over the levee when the pond overflowed? (This is my guess). The ditch only has water in it when it rains. The ditch drains into a creek about a mile away.

3. There is an 8in overflow pipe that empties into the ditch from the pond. It sticks straight up above the ground about a foot when it is dry and is perpendicular the ground. If the water gets high enough it can cover the pipe. When it does get that high there is still a strong flow coming out of the pond. Could the GSF could have swam through the pipe during a heavy rain? (This is what my dad thinks happened.)

4. We bought the fish from a reputable fish farmer and his batch may have been compromised. (Least likely but still possible)

The GSF are bigger than any of the bluegill bream. At first I did not even consider scenario 1 but as I catch more large GSF I think it may be possible. Just don't know how they could get into a puddle in the bottom of the pond with a berm around it.

Here are my questions.
1. Should we nuke and start over?
2. Is fishing and trapping a better alternative?
3. What do the experts here think is the most likely culprit and how can we fix it.
4. Do GSF grow faster than normal bream in the same conditions?
5. Should we not worry about it since the LMB are HUGE and fat/happy?

A note on the last one. The bass are engorged. They grew to nearly 10 inches on average in less than 12 weeks.

I know that GSF and LMB compete for the same food when they are near the same size. The goal for the pond is to have a healthy bream population with the occasional bass fight. We really do not want to have to start over.

When we set minnow traps we catch GSF 10-1 in the 1" to 2" size.
Fishing with small minnow we catch GSF 8-2 over the bluegill.
When we set a larger fish trap we catch blugill 7-1 over the GSF.
When we fish with crickets we catch bluegill 8-1 over the GSF.

Fishing with crickets we catch healthy looking CNBG and BG and when we switch to minnows we catch mostly GSF.

I know this is a lot of information. Any help or ideas of what is going on would be appreciated.

Stocked December 29th 2013 1.5" to 2" fish
1500 CNBG
1500 Native BG
800 RES
5000 FHM

We added 200 LMB on Jun 7th 2014. 1.5" to 2" fish.


Here is the link to pictures of the pond. The water in the pictures is from the water well.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showgallery&Number=361813#comments

The owner of shepherds fish farm in Acadians parish in louisiana told me that green sunfish are excellent at swimming upstream and could have definitely entered that way.

In my opinion I would not start over. I worried about the same thing when it happened to me. But my pond is five years old now and we rarely catch any eating size GSF. After tasting them I had hoped the pond would get GSF heavy but no such luck. I don't think you have anything to worry about. I'm no expert but I have heard some of the experts talk about it with mixed reviews. But from my own experience, they don't reproduce enough to out number the bream, plus you have bass to control them. I used to worry about this, and so I used to trap as manny as I could and remove them, I now realize that worrying and trapping was unnecessary.

BG have multiple spawns and GSF only spawn annually. Over time, they will disappear.

BTW, I stocked both GSF and BG last weekend from my forage pond.

Just my observation from being on this forum almost a year, but it seems to me guys in the north worry about/have more problems with GSF than guys in the south.

If you are lucky, some will hybridize. Easy to catch, fight hard, and big enough to eat.

Another observvation, it would be more worrisome if you were not catching nice size BG. But you are.

Any photos of the GSF? Interested in the smaller (1-2") size also.

I also have been trapping and removing as many GSF (and BH's) that I can, but have recently again quit as the size of the GSF have gotten smaller, indicating I have got a lot of the 4" target size out for the time being (till the small ones grow some more).

My attempt is to keep the GSF numbers in check till I start seeing BG in the trap regularly. I think to date the GSF have been eating all my BG and RES fry and not letting them get established. So I have been removing 3-4" GSF and adding 3-5" BG (caught out of my big pond). Probably add 20 BG for every hundred GSF I have removed. I figured will keep this up and eventually the BG would have to eventually overpower the GSF. Once I start seeing about half BG and half GSF in the minnow traps, I'll quit worrying about the GSF in the pond and just enjoy them for what they are.

Sprkplug, are you curious if tdawgcole's GSF are really maybe hybrids? I am. Maybe this post will bring the subject back up and we will get some pictures.

If it is just pictures of small GSF you want, I can supply those. Number ten cricket hook and a bit of Slim Jim or just plastic worm tip and I can get all I want of 3"-4" GSF. The 1-2" I can get in the minnow trap (along with up to about 4.5").

Here are the pics. I know it has been awhile but life got crazy for a bit. I can get more of the smaller ones if desired, but I am convinced these are GSF. With that being said, the BG population is exploding and they seem healthy. Even the little 6in ones I can barely get a hand around since they are so fat. We remove any GSF we catch or trap just to help but as of yet there has been no issues with them. We put the base in 8 mos ago and they are already over a foot long and most are over a pound. Plenty of forage it seems...

The greenies in MN have a bit bigger mouth, and are darker greens. Someone on the forum will ID them.

Looks like GSF to me.

I have learned enough in my short time as a member here at PBF to know I do not know enough to accurately identify a fish from photos. So I offer this. In the words of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth," I am fairly confident it is not a carp, CC, or a bass.

If not pure GSF they are very close to it and could be a southern strain. As DD1, Cardell, and others have found the bass will eventually control these 'GSF' and BG will be the predominant panfish.

This spring make sure the bass spawn and you see small bass in June or July. The larger GSF can eat a lot of LMB eggs and fry when GSF are very abundant. If you see no small 1"-2" bass this summer stock another 50-70 LMB this fall to insure a year class of 2015 bass. In year 3 or 4 you should see and catch a lot fewer GSF. Once you think the GSF are at a low density you can start removing bass to achieve your goals of the fishery, be it crowded bass or larger bass or general fishing with all sizes.

Looks like a greenie to me also, but a couple have a slightly more rounded body dynamic. Maybe just a larger GSF, or a little BG influence somewhere, sometime.

Bill D, this ain't a discussion about English lit so leave Sir Arthur Conan Dickle out of it. OK?

Dang it Bob! This crowd could use a little culture!

Bob-Oh was more concerned about watching girls in high school than paying attention to the teacher. Old habits die very hard.

Bill D, if yer lookin ta give a bunch of slime lovin pond lovers a bit of culture, good luck!
Bill C, your wise beyond yer education. However I was more interested in sniffin the girls than the teacher and yer correct, old habits are eternal and WONDERFUL !! Like me, they ain't dead yet.

I thought Spock said that!

Pat

I knew there was a another man of culture in this crowd! ...... Actually, I think I remember Spock saying that line in an epsidode, or something close to it.

Thanks for the help guys. I was really worried when we first saw the GSF but now I am not. The bream and bass are both happy and any larger GSF this summer get a free hot oil bath! I will be sure to update our experiences once we see how things turn out.

Yeah nothing to worry about. I had a LOT of grown up GSF when I bought my pond. Just LMB, and GSF when I bought it. I had some GSF that were 10 inches long. They are fun to fight mind you at that size! I got rid of some of them but ever since I put in my BG, CNBG and RES 2 years later I hardly ever catch a GSF anymore. I have a few very nice hybrids though so I know there are still a few in there but have not had any issues. You should be just fine!

RC

GSF make great catfish bait on trotlines. They are tough and stay alive a lot longer than bluegills.

Oh yeah esshup the small ones work great under a bobber too for LMB! They can't resist!!

That is exactly what we have been using them for as well. We set up one of those little minnow traps in about a foot of water, wait abou 15 minutes and we have an easy dozen of GSF about an inch to two inches long. Not even sure why they go in there since we do not even use bait. Rarely catch any CNBG and if so they are released. Speaking of which, I am not sure how we have TONS of 1 in fish with the spawn so long ago. It is like they spawn year round.

I also find that GSF will readily enter unbaited wire traps. I think they enter seeking cover. They traditionally prefer hanging out in smaller hiding places to avoid predators.

They love the crevices of rocky shorelines. On slow fishing days, my son resorts to popping one right after the other.

2 1/2" GSH consumed by this 6" BCP

GSF for my BCP..it's what's for dinner! Reproduce in low DO waters, trap super easy, and only need to be slightly wet to stay alive. I love these little beauties!!

I don't get it .... You either hate em or luv em.. What exactly is wrong with having them in ponds except maybe they will eat a few bass? They taste ok don't they?

Where is JHAP when you need him!! The GSF! Well I'll try to answer this.

Pros,
1.........hmmmmm lets see.... Well when large they fight pretty hard!
2. They taste ok, and they make for good bait!

Cons,
1. They are a predator fish so they compete for forage fish like crazy! And most of them 90 percent don't really get over 5 or 6 inches.
2. The only spawn once a year so they don't provide enough food for your LMB, SMB, or HSB really. There just kind of a filler fish. The red headed step child of ponds!!!

There just not really worth your time and effort put in to try and make them a decent fish! Don't get me wrong some folks have put in the time and have gotten some decent GSF, but I can put in half the time in BG, and CNBG and get a LOT more benefits!!!

RC

RC51
Fair enough, good answer, I got BLC , LMB and CNBG so I guess I have enough mouths to feed, just hoping for more forage for the crappie since the bass were put in to soon and gobbled up most of last years YOY CNBC

Thanks


Pat W

Pat- My situation is probably quite different than yours. And I can only speak of the ponds around my area.

Black crappies are what I love and I don't mind the "work" of managing them in smaller BOW. I wish they would take pellets but I can't seem to get them to take. So I have to work with what I got.

I can't wait to try a couple of things this season with our crappie only ponds and GSF!

mnfish
They are my favorite also, I know my work is cut out but I will gladly do it to have some beauties like those. Any hints run them my way! Those are gorgeous fish!

Thanks


Pat W

Pat - Thank you!!! I don't want to side track the original posters thread here. We probably should start a different thread discussing BCP management ideas.

mnfish, no fair posting pics from last spring!

Very good idea! I hope someone starts that thread. The experiences from all members growing crappie will be very good info to have here. Mnfish if you get a chance repeat some of the pictures above in the new tread. When it gets going I will put the thread in the Archives in the crappie section. Looking forward to reading it.

I had a friend using 1"-1.25" GSF to catch crappie which according to him seemed to work pretty good.

HaHa, Scott! Come on spring!

I'm on it sir!