1. What kind of % predation loss could be expected when stocking 8" to 10" HSB in an established pond with LMB up to 18" or so?

2. What are the pros and cons of Fall versus Spring stocking of said 8" to 10" HSB, assuming equal availability both seasons? Currently I'm thinking that a Spring stocking would a) avoid potential Winter loss and b) place the HSB in the pond when the availability of small forage fish is at it's peak (but the little kid inside wants the new toys ASAP). The HSB will be fed pelleted feed when temps are high enough, either scenario.

Theo, If you can get the larger HSB in Sept rather than Oct then survival will be very good providing the fish are handled properly with minimal stress. September stocking will provide ample body fat to survive winter. Feed the fish up until the water gets down to around 50F.

I think a fall stocking will provide fish that have not been crowded at the fish farm over winter and ultimately the fall stocked fish may be healthier when you get them. If the fish are not harvested in early spring they could arrive when water temps are warmer and not best for stocking HSB. I have stocked larger HSB in fall at 10"-11" that I raised in a cage and had 100% survival. Fish had minimal stress and were put into a pond with 18"-20" LMB.

If there are a few 18" bass, then a few 8" HSB may go down the tubes. Generally speaking, HSB and LMB don't spend a lot of time in the same areas.

Something you might want to seriously consider is to pen the HSB for a short while after stocking. Two falls ago we stocked some 8" HSB in a lake with an established LMB fishery late evening with the HSB being a little stressed from the travel. It was impressive!! The LMB blew up on the poor little wipers like they were hitting a topwater lure. Big explosions left and right with each blow up representing another dead HSB. Big booboo! So the time of day and the condition of the stockers is crucial. I'd consider a midnight or mid afternoon stocking to let the HSB acclimate. It's conceivable that half of the mortality could occur within the first fifteen minutes.

I don't like stocking when the water is too cool, so I'd either get the fish in quickly before the fall cool-off, or wait until May of next year. February is a bad time. Actually I think a September stocking might be the best because it's the time that the LMB are already foraging well on YOY bluegill.

Just for the sake of argument I'd assume a mortality of 20-40%

Ha! Cody responded while I was composing my response. We seem to be mostly on the same page.

This applies no matter what you stock (unless they are at least 1/2 the size or bigger than the biggest LMB) into a pond with adult LMB.

Two articles of note concerning the need to habituate small bass to avoid excessive initial predation. The articles are entitled A Laboratory Evaluation of Poststocking Predatory Losses for Cultured Largemouth Bass by J. WARREN SCHLECHTE, ROBERT K. BETSILL, AND DAVID L. BUCKMEIER from The American Fisheries Society and Initial Predation of Stocked Fingerling Largemouth Bass in a Texas Reservoir and Implications for Improving Stocking Efficiency by DAVID L. BUCKMEIER, ROBERT K. BETSILL, AND J. WARREN SCHLECHTE from the American Fisheries Society. These studies, one from the lab and one in the field, found that predation greatly affected post stocking survival of fingerling largemouth bass. They revealed estimated losses of stocked fish to predation in the initial period after stocking at high rate ranges from 27.5% to 75 %. Fingerling largemouth bass survival significantly increased when the fish were allowed to habituate in a predator free enclosure for a short period of time. The study showed this short-term protection enhanced survival because it resulted in improved new fish’s awareness of existing predators and sharpened their instinctive avoidance skills.

Use a net like Shorty or a cage like Bill but do protect them or they will be gone.

I find this subject to be timely and very intersting.

I have been down the road with this one, beginning with extreme LMB predation of 4-6 inches HSB, progressing to low predation supplemental 8 - 10 inch HSB stocking.


1. I yield to Cody, Condello and ewest on this one.
I don't have a clue as to % survival rate but feel sucessful due to large numbers of fall 2005 stocking of 8 -10 HSB, based on the high numbers of 14 - 16 HSB we are now catching.

2. I am currenetly discussing with Overton the feasability of spring stocking of "carried over" HSB for this years supplememtal stocking. They should be in the near 12 -14 inch range based on the size we are now catchng.
I am posing the question to Todd of economics of high prcentage survival at high cost vs. lower survival of less costly fish.

My personal views for cage or pen raised fish are not pratical or feasable in my case.

George asked me to crunch some numbers on this subject. Based on standard weights of farm raised 12"-14" HSBs, you can expect those fish to weigh about 1.5 lb average when stocked. Retail cost for fish of this size would likely run $13 each. Let's back up to a 10"-12" fish, which would weigh about 1 lb each and cost about $9 each. 8"-10" fish weigh about 6 ozs and cost about $3 each.

Personally I feel that most of us would be in good shape stocking 8"-10" fish with an existing largemouth bass population. And by crunching the economic numbers you could stock 3 8"-10"s for the price of 1 10"-12" HSB.

So unless you expect less than 30% survival rate of 8"-10" fish, it is more economical to stock small fish. The downside is, of course, how will you know what your survival rate is? We can only guess at that one.

Thanks Todd, for answering a dumb question I shouldn't have asked to spend time on.
Doesn't sound feasable but how I learn I guess...

George that was a good question !! Todd thanks for the info.

If you needed to know for balance purposes what was up with the numbers then that would be a time for the larger fish. You would know what went in and that you would get near 100% survival. In a put and take pond that could be very important.

What if you guessed that you would have 50% survival on 8-10s and you ended up with 90%. You could get crowded in a hurry.

I would think those rates could change a lot based on the nature of the LMB population. If , for example, you have a larger pond where LMB schooled and they were 3-4 lbs you could lose more 10 in. HSB than where that did not occur.

One comment from a northern pond owner.

I like stockings in the spring and fall, however, I now prefer the spring stockings because you have more time to observe what's going on in your pond.

For fall stockings, ice over is only a few months or so away. Come the following spring, I'm usually wondering what has happened.

Theo…comments from a southern pond owner...

I've had by far the best survival rates for HSB that are released in the deepest area of my pond rather than the shallow areas. As EWEST's material suggests, the critical time for predation is that initial time period that it takes for the HSB to acclimate in your pond. The deep water gives them an extra edge to acclimate before LMB attacks. When released in shallow water areas, regardless of sizes I have dealt with, they are easy prey to LMB. After they get acclimated, it is my belief that survival is very high even among 4-6 inch stockers...at full speed the HSB is one fast pond fish.

Regarding time of year, that may be influenced somewhat by the available forage base you have. For example, if Tilapia are present, then fall is a great time to take advantage of that. Not only for providing a food source for the HSB but also taking pressure off them from predation...the LMB are also focusing on Tilapia.

My best results, having tried spring and fall and different sizes, have been fall stocking in deep water. With the forage base in my ponds, even the smaller HSB have very acceptable survival rates.

Thanks for all the input, everyone.

My current plans are to try to get the 8" to 10" HSB stockers ASAP. I'm going to up the number ordered to allow for a 40% predation loss (50 ordered vs. 30 desired). If I have "too many" survive, I will just eat some early next year, before water temps peak and water quality hits the Summer low.

I considered putting in a blocking net and isolating the HSB behind it for a while, perhaps even a month or two, but decided to spend more money on fish rather than on plastic netting at this time (and avoid net and post removal in colder weather). I think I will release the new HSB in the deep half of the pond immediately following tossing a lot of feed into the feedring (which is over a deep bowl in the shallow end). My hope is that the usual feeding frenzy will distract most of the big LMB in the pond. It should at least work to keep the feed trained LMB and the big CC busy.

Sounds like a good plan, Theo.

One thing I did, which has worked very well for me, is to stock a few each year, rather than the whole crew at once. That way we can harvest fish and grow replacements at the same time making a continous operation. Ater 4 years of doing this, I now have all different sizes of HSB including a very small number of originals which can grow to trophy size. It's kind of fun to have various sizes and year classes present at the same time. I never have a precise count of the number of HSB fish present at any given time, but rely on the feeder to provide a good insight into the population dynamics.

Moderation? I only do that in small amounts.

You have got me thinking about follow-on year stockings. Next year I would need to do this size HSB (or bigger) again. After that, if I'm lucky, I'll be stocking a new pond (with the intent to transfer most HSB to the existing pond after grow out) and have much more in the way of choices.

I may peel the numbers back a little and plan on repeating with more 8" to 10" HSB next year.

Theo, I would stick with your original HSB stocking numbers, and if you have a high survival rate, which I doubt, you can have fun without worrying about losing HSB due to fishing stress. I am not as optimistic about low LMB predation as ML.

Our first fall stocking of 4 – 6 inch HSB were released in the middle of the pond and the LMB went into a feeding frenzy, the same as a fall pattern with reservoir LMB feeding in deep open water.

I do agree with an annual fall supplemental HSB stocking program, to maintain a “ladder” of maturing fish.

HSB are a blast – they make LMB look like sissies…!

Theo if you are not going to protect them for the first half hour with a net or cage then I suggest that you pick the place that seems best and a few mins. before you put them in by use of a pole/paddle/noise disturb the area to drive off the LMB. Then stay in the area at the edge for an hour with the pole working the perimeter to keep the LMB off balance. Also adding a couple pounds of FH with the HSB will help disorient the LMB. Also separate and apart from the considerations above as to when to stock keep in mind that with cold water the HSB have 2 advantages 1) they are more active in cold water than LMB and 2) LMB feeding is sharply reduced in colder water as a result of a slowed metabolism. Anything that improves the HSB's advantage for the first hours means a higher survival rate.

Theo, also, don't forget that you can easily get HSB that are much larger than 8-10". My last two stocking of HSB had lengths of 13-14" and then 15-16". With their speed as ML mentioned, and those sizes, there was little to no chance of predation.

I know, Sunil. The price isn't even unreasonable considering the time and feed it takes to grow 'em out.

I'd rather grow them out from 10 inchers and have them eat some small BG along the way, but I may have to go up a size due to availability.

ewest:

That sounds like a good idea. I will implement if at all possible (will depend on delivery time and my work schedule).

Don't over rate the speed of a farm raised stocker HSB - they haven't learned what to be afraid of - yet.

My first fish guy said "don't worry about the 4 - 6 inch HSB stockers - they are so fast the bass can't catch them"....
Right????

ewest suggestion to stir up the water with pole or oar to scare off the bass, as well as to put fear into the HSB, is an excellent idea...

I was the dummy sitting in a boat in the middle of the pond, watching LMB chow down on helpless HSB...

By the way, I am in Sunil's corner on stocking the largest HSB possible - I'm not a patient person and primaily interested in growing and catching I can buy table fare fish much cheaper at the market.

The cost of one guide trip these days, or buying and maintaining a boat for that matter, will buy a lot of stocker fish....

My HSB experience is very limited compared to most here.

One thing that I forgot to mention...My fish guy knocks out the HSB with clove oil before transferring them into my pond. So when they first go into the pond, they are basically not moving at all, and instead are lying on the bottom. It takes at least 10 minutes before they start moving, and they are "stunned" at best. The place where we put them in the water is only 1-2' deep, therefore we can monitor them.

It doesn't sound like anyone else "knocks them out" when putting them in??

I haven't heard of that practice elsewhere, Sunil.

OTOH, my LMB HATE the taste of clove oil. Possibly a deterrent. Hmmm??? :rolleyes:

Well, it took a little longer than optimum, but my pond is fuller by 50 8"-10" HSB tonight. I chucked in some floating feed at the feedring to provide a distraction before we put the new HSB in. There was no sign of predator activity down at the other end of the pond where the HSB went in; hopefully I'll get a decent survival rate.

My fish guy put about 2 drops of something he called "Tranquil" in each bucket of HSB. He said this kept them calm for about 5 minutes while we took the buckets back to the pond. They seemed to recover very shortly after going in the pond (some while we were mixing pond water into the buckets); one took a little longer than the others but vamoosed when I stuck a hand in the water in front of him.

I had forgotten your clove oil info, Sunil, and didn't think to ask him what was in the "Tranquil." He wouldn't have used it if we'd had a shorter in-bucket transit time.

They look nice. When I put my 17, 4 - 8 inch stripers in it was winter. I believe all my fish made it. I see them eat all the time now and estimate just about all are there. I did put 25 in in the summer they were 3 - 6 inches or so and I have not see hide nor hair of them. I also put 50 4" channel cats in the summers and havent seen not one. The winter definatly was the ticket for me and the HSB. Just recently I put some CNBG and I feel pretty good because I put a few pounds of fatheads with them and I know the bass ate them first so hopefull my CNBG are still there.

Anyone else spread salt in pond before stocking? They spread 50lbs. of salt in area, waited 15 minutes then put them in. Water temp was 74-76 and they seemed to do well.
edit
these were 4-5".

Those are beautiful. I've raised over ten thousand to that size and it never gets old seeing them.

Congrats ! Those look like very fit HSB. Do you know where they came from? If you keep adding species you may have to name the pond Norm II.

Theo,

Welcome, my friend, to the HSB club. I can't wait to read your first posts on catching them on a fly rod. You will use a fly rod, right(sometimes?)?

I'm betting you will see excellent survival. I'm also betting you will have much better success at growing them out to large sizes than I have here in the sun belt. Since, I'm betting, I'll also bet that you will see a big increase in your feed bill...and see big smiles when you hook up with these great fighters. I hope you completely enjoy them.

I haven't done it, but it makes a lot of sense to me to give them some insurance at adapting to the new environment. To me, one of the keys for happy pond HSB is water temp...they just don't handle high temps well in my experience, especially as they get larger. The salt would help reduce stress on them in that initial period.

Here is some info from SRAC. Keep in mind the chemical make up of salts (Na & Ca ) when reading this.

Fingerlings that are sold should
be acclimated to cool water and
allowed to purge for at least a day
before being shipped. The shipping
water should be salted (0.5
to 1% or 5 to 10 g/L NaCl2, CaCl2,
or sea salt) to reduce the effects of
stress. A commercial anti-ammonia
compound is also added to
the water. If the fish are going to
be shipped by air (and sometimes
by ground) they are placed in a
few gallons of salted water and
into doubled plastic bags that are
inflated with oxygen and then
placed into an insulated shipping
box and sealed. Large shipments
by ground transportation are
loaded into insulated compartments
on a hauling truck that has
a supply of liquid oxygen and an
aeration system. Dissolved oxygen
should be kept above 5
mg/L. The water should be agitated
to prevent buildup of carbon
dioxide. Temperatures should
be kept below 70 °F (21 °C).


Hybrids are
generally stocked into freshwater systems
but they do well in salinities of
O to 25 ppt, and some can survive
salinities up to full strength seawater
(35 ppt). Dissolved oxygen levels as
low as 1 mg/l can be tolerated for a
short period of time, but optimum
dissolved oxygen levels range from 6
to 12 mg/1.

Alkalinity, hardness and pH levels
are usually related, and hybrid
striped bass grow well over a wide
range of values. Alkalinity of 100
mg/1 or above is desirable in culture situations; however, fish have been
known to survive alkalinity and hardness
values of 20 to 30 mg/1.[[ Mortality
can be significant during
transfer from water of high
alkalinity/hardness to water with low
alkalinity/hardness. Although still unproven,
calcium levels appear to be
important when handling fish in
freshwater.]] Hybrids survive in a pH
range of 6.0 to 10.0, although 7.0 to
8.5 is optimum for growth. Pond reared
hybrids have survived
repeated exposure to a pH of 2.5.

For those who don't know, these aren't my first 50 HSB, but rather HSB Numbers 2 thru 51. We have one HSB who apparently snuck in under the radar with our original stockers (with the LMB, is my guess). My daughter caught him first, and therefore had the honor of naming him ("Lt. Stripes"). When last caught in late March 2005, he was a fat 18". I really look forward to landing him again and seeing how big he's grown.

Bruce, I love to look at wipers too. I'll never forget the first time I saw one, so similar and yet so different from LMB. They're largely the same shape and colors, yet with different accoutrements and patterns - it always reminds me of the different NATO member camo schemes.

Eric: They are most recently from Jones Fish. Didn't Bruce or Lusk or someone post that 90%+ of the HSB in the country come from the same hatchery in, what, Arkansas?

ML: I will not hazard to guess or promise when, but a HSB on a fly rod is definitely in my future at some point.

Keo, Arkansas is the place. I'm not sure if I know of any other sources for commercial sale. (That's not to say there aren't any). I think some states produce their own. Kansas being one of them.

Keo ships them all over the country as 1-1.5 inchers. Mike Freeze is the name of the guy. He runs a good business and provides a great product that's guaranteed live delivery. He's helped me out many times.

Theo,congratulations on your new arrivals.
Welcone to the expanding HSB club.
They will kick some LMB butt...

ML is right on - a fly rod is the way to go...
With a good feeding program they will be a pound by spring and will strtch your line...

Beautiful fish...

I caught one of my new HSB today (on an earthworm); condition looked very good and I would say he had gained a little weight since being stocked. He certainly outfought the larger GSH I caught ahead of him!