Hello all, my name is Dan, I'm new to the forum (obviously haha). I have a serious situation and could use the expertise of the folks here very badly.
Ok, here goes... two years ago I did some forage stocking of my 1.3 acre 22 ft deep central Illinois pond. The pond is spring fed and has always had exceptionally clear water. I stocked 300 hybrid crappie, 100 4-6 lmb, 100 4-6 channel cats. My intention was to feed a very hearty base of 50 to 60 7-10 lb channel cats and 30 to 40(?) 3 to 5 lb lmb. My pond is rather healthy(well it was) with fresh water clams and such thriving and a twice a year turn over that clears the water even more. All is great until one dismal day that I shall not forget any time soon.... I get to my pond to find a fella and his buddy that I didn't know hauling up from the dock at least 15 of the cats and 4 or 5 of the larger bass. Aside from reaching for my sidearm, I asked the gent exactly what the heck he was doing(not in exactly that verbiage I might add). He told me that he was a friend of my dead father-in-law and that he received permission to fish from my mother-in-law. After the steam stopped spewing from my ears, I called my m-i-l and sure enough..."Oh yes please go fishing thats what its for, have a good time and take as many as you like" was the horrific answer I got. I was then and there aware of the fact the deed was done. I could not hang the dingbat by his toes and get away with it so iI shewed him away with a "I better not see you here again" look. Sooo, all that being said, I now have way to many forage fish and a redear population that could feed a small army. The cats seem to be doing well though the average size dropped about 4 lbs. the bass however are small, infrequent and couple have a larger than average head and super skinny body. They look sickly. Though its not the case with all of them, I am concerned about some type of bacteria or such and would like to stop it from spreading if at all possible. The balance is clearly out. This pond is 37 years old(1 year younger than I) and has been great with no problems that I can ever remember, until now. How do I get the population back to balance? Is population control the answer to my woes? I considered a few northern pike to rid the redear population of the overabundance but that doesn't seem to be the answer for the bass. Please help with any suggestions. I am open to trying anything at this point. p.s. I have had a discussion with the rest of the family and it is now a standing rule that its catch and release only until I get this problem solved and after that no one but family may remove a fish under pain of death. I feel confident that this type of fiasco will not happen again. Please Help. Thanks a bunch folks and all the best, Dan

Welcome to PB. First you need to be sure of the facts. Start a log of what you see listing sizes , types and condition of all fish. Do a seine survey (see link below on population balance). Without knowing who fishes you will have trouble carrying out your plan. I would suggest that you talk to the family and see if you can say - no one fishes unless a family member is with them. Get control of the people first then the fish.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92492#Post92492

Hi Dan,

Welcome to the forum! Too bad you found us because of a problem. The good news is all of us here will help you in any way we can. The great news is you have one of the best lake managers around these days in your back yard if needed. It would be money very well spent if you called Nate Herman of HB Pond Management .

You said yor pond is healthy and "very clear". Very clear water means sterile or infertile water to us and also means you do not have a good base for the food chain. If your bass are skinny with big heads, they are starving and/or stunted and should be removed. Most likely you are way overpopulated with bass or the forage base (bluegill) is nearly gone.

There will be several ways for you to get your pond back to what you want it to be, but none will be quick and all will take work.

The first thing I would do is change your catch and release rule to remove all bass under 15 inches that are not as fat as a football.

There will be many more suggestions forthcoming. In the meantime, can you post some pictures and tell us what forage fish you have in the water? Do you have a good plant base in parts of the pond?

On a personal note, who supplied your Hybrid Crappie?

Hello mhmacw and welcome to Pond Boss. Trespassing and poaching are huge issues for pond ownership but unfortunately if the "visitors" are invited on the property then they are neither trespassing nor poaching. Time to have a talk with M-I-L.

Anyhoo welcome to Pond Boss, we're glad you found us.

Thanks for the kind welcome. Not all forums these days are of such a kind nature. I have stopped the fishing as it were. That is all catch and release any way. To that I'd say the fishing is at leas stabilized with no more taken out till further notice. I will get a host of pictures to aid in the suggestions. I should be able to do that on the next sunny day...(tomorrow maybe). When I say clear I'd say you can see well to about 6 ft and see larger fish swimming around the 12 ft mark. I'll have to look up the stock supplier though I can say it's delivered to the Peoria area ag center near St. Vincent school if that helps. I love the idea of all under 15 to go unless related to a football haha. Great alalogy. Let me get some more info and I'll post it by tomorrow arfternoon. Thanks again. I'ts a great help. As always ..all the best, Dan

With regards to the large head skinny bass:

You might have a lot of forage in the pond, but it might be of a size that those LMB cannot utilize, or utilize effeciently. (the <8" LMB might look great, 10"-16" might be skinny and the 18+" LMB might look great)

I think that might be the case...the non utility forage. I took a few photos but they really didn't come out well I don't think. I have caught a few of the 4 to 5 lb bass earlier and they seem healthy. Nice and fat and very hard fighting. The large head /small body scenario seems to be limited to the 14 to 18 range as I think back. There is no doubt a huge population of redears. Would it be ok to take out a hundred or so? Or should I take fewer out at a time several times? also I noticed a post that says only 50 to 60 bass per acre. If thats the case then the bass are way over populated as well. If you stand there a minute 5 to 8 bass will pass the shore in schools about every 30 seconds or so but they are only about 4 to 10 inches. I spent about 5 hours there yesterday and only saw one bass over the 20 inch mark but saw hundreds of the smaller ones. As suggested earlier...I think I'll just start taking out the bass under 14 inches and the redears under 7 inches. The catch rate for the redears is about 1 every 10 seconds of you can unhook them that fast, and the supply SEEMS unlimited. Unless I have an emergency all stop post I'll begin taking the smaller ones out this weekend. I do however wonder whats the best thing to do with them. Surely someone would like to have them but I don't know who or were and transportation is also an issue I would guess. seems like a boatload of work to fillet 200 small blugill and bass for dinner for 2 haha. Anyway, Heres the pics I did take. If there is a specific view or item that would be helpful to see, let me know and I'll go snap a few more. oop! I guess I'm not familiar with the ways and means to up load photos. Any help there would be appreciated as well. Thanks again folks ,Dan

I don't recall ever hearing of Redear Sunfish (RES) overpopulating in a pond with evn a few predators. RES only spawn once per season. Are you sure you are dealing with RES. Is it possible you are dealing with another species of sunfish, such as Pumpkinseeds?

Also, RES are notoriusly difficult to catch on a hook and line.

Here's the photos ...I think lol.

Try using polarized sunglasses in front of your camera lens to eliminate the glare Dan.

Honestly, anything is possible at this point. lol. I do notice a drastic difference in color between them(the different types of sunfish) some quite dark and some quite light though the lighter ones I just chalked up to being the younger ones as they are also the smaller ones as a rule. As far as I know there are only redears, bass, crappie, and channels.

RES would never provide the forage to feed that many predators. If you can catch and post pictures of the fish, we can identify them quickly for you.

No problems there. I have a long weekend at the cabin planned starting tomorrow so I'll get all types of photos. I noticed when snaping photos yesterday a school of minnows and a school of 2 inch. So the food supply seems to be holding in the smaller end any way. What would a half dozen northern pike do in there?

It is very possible you were stocked originally with Hybrid Bluegill which is very popular in your area. The HBG will reproduce, but the offspring revert back to the Green Sunfish and usually stunt. This could explain your missing a size class of forage.

It is only one of a myriad of potential reasons though.

ahhh. That would also explain the big head/small body in the specific size range of bass as well? correct?

Exactly! HBG offspring often stunt into the 2-4 inch size range.

I think more than ever that you should give Nate Herman a call though. He is in your back yard and has a natural, God given talent, along with a whole lot of work and experience for understanding ponds.

Nate could save you a ton of time and prevent more mistakes. It may save you some big $'s in the long run since the wrong move can take years to correct.

Hold the phone! You said hard to catch? Not these little buggers. Bare hook all day long. Id better get some photos of the fish for comparison before we go any further. As you are describing I think they are HBG not redears.

Indeed! I knew something ugly was going to happen when I saw the stringer of dead cats ol boy was hauling to his truck. I let it set for 2 years and am now seeing the imbalance taking shape. If nothing else id like to just stop the problem then correct it from there. The biggest problem here as far as understanding is that my father in law always took care of this, from inception. I played a fairly large part in it over the few years and then took over after he died but the depth of experience as far as management died with him. I do think I have a good handle on it (until...well ya know) but I certainly don't know it like he did. All you info and knowledge is a god send my friend. If you have Nates contact info I'd be grateful.

Also, I wouldn't pull out any of the sunfish. The LMB are needing things to eat, so taking food off of the plate won't help at all. Thin out any of the skinny LMB, and post pics of what you can from this weekend. Crappie in the pond might be part of the problem.

I second getting Nate out there. What he can do/tell you in a few hours = weeks on the forum.

http://www.hbpondmanagement.com/

Tell him Pond Boss and Rex sent ya.

For what it's worth, I am delivering a truckload of fish to Nate in the next few weeks and I have no doubt we can find room on board for some pure bluegill to fill any empty void you may have.

The Doctor just re-certified my USDOT health certificate and I'm back in business!

WOW!cool resource! Thanks a bunch guys. So I'll take that as an all stop(the bass needing food.) Ultimately I want huge bass and cats and could not really care about the rest of them(other than the balance they provide of course) but I'm not huge BG fisherman. How many bass can my pond support in the5-8 lb range? The cats are growing even quicker than I thought after seeing them come to feed yesterday. I certainly don't want to disturb the cats habitat while trying to fix this whole mess thats for sure.

Hold up, I thought hybrids never reverted back to their original parents' species?

lol I'm not thinking I need any more fish? once I remove the mid range bass won't the cycle start fresh again and the forage will grow with the baby bass? Thus the balance start to level out? What about transfers? If I need to take out a bunch of bass can you send them elsewhere or are they a loss? Good news about the DOT card. I have one of those though I've never really needed it.

Aside from the magazine... which publication is going to give the best overall info? Basic pond management? or something else?

If you never had straight bluegill, or they have been eliminated/crossbred out, then no, it can't balance.

There is an article in the current Pond Boss Magazine about "transferring" fish. Not as cheap nor easy as it sounds once time and fuel are thought of. Plus if you're not an expert at identifiction, you are never sure you are getting the right fish. It takes several hundred fish of the right size/species.


In my case, my DOT cert was pulled due to a recent illness/allergic reaction that had me in the ICU for 8 days and nearly killed me. It did quite a bit of heart/lung/liver damage....it all appears to be healing/regenerating well now.

Well thats good news about your recovery to be sure. As im reading it its bad news about the fish that need removed(14< bass) just have to eat what we can and toss the rest? Thats unfortunate. As far as cross breed out on the bg? Are you saying I need to remove all I can and start over with fresh brood? And the crappie thing? Do I need to be completely rid of the crappie? Other than the magazine(which I'll shortly subscribe to) are any of the other publications relevant to this problem?

I'm sure there are other publications, but none come to mind other than Bob Lusk's book on Pond management. You can link to it here Pond Boss Books.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves thinking this is solved. HBG could explain the problem, Crappie may be the problem too, but we don't know yet. Let's either get Nate out there to know for sure or get a lot more info and pics before jumping to any conclusions.

I think (in addition to having Nate Herman visit your place) that buying a copy of "Raising Trophy Bass" by Bob Lusk on the Pond Boss web site is the best place to get an understanding of how to accomplish your goals.

This recommendation based on the statement, "Ultimately I want huge bass and cats and could not really care about the rest of them(other than the balance they provide of course) but I'm not huge BG fisherman. How many bass can my pond support in the5-8 lb range?"

Bing

You need to know the facts before you try to fix the pond. Take pics of some of the sunfish. Learn how to know what to look for from the prior links to make an assessment.

For sure! Im not in a hurry(as I've let the pond settle for 2 years before doing anything knowing the wrong move could be catastrophic) I wont jump into a wrong decision. I am afraid I left a message at Nates house instead of his office so I'll try him tomorrow. All your info is remarkable and extremely helpful. I cant thank you enough is all I can think of to all the Pond Boss members helping me with this labor of love. So, the PB news letter and the Growing Trophy Bass....any others that might be helpful or will that do it for now? I will have more pics in short order (tomorrow most likely) and well get these little buggers identified. I have already had to make some radical changes in thought about whats going on here simply based on the fact that I'm pretty sure they are HBG and not red ears. I also think there are more than one species in play as far as the sunfish population. You guys are great and i look forward to having a great time on here. especially after this is all behind us and on to the task at hand...landin' grandaddy! haha Thanks so much and all the best, Dan

The "Basic Pond Management" book is the one I would suggest first.

We're all passionate about ponds here and many of us make a living at it. None of us want to see a fellow pondmeister do anything other than reach their goals! Post pics and keep us all informed! We all learn from every experience.

No two ponds, pond owners, methods or situations are alike.

I surly will post pics and keep all interested informed of the progress (or god forbid regress). I think it would be down right uncivilized to do anything but that given the amount of help in just a few posts. I grabbed the trophy bass book and the subscription so well see how that goes. I'll probably wind up with the whole library before its over. hehe. At any rate...I'll be doing some investigative research, via Revo/Ugly Stick, this weekend. I'll get some more pics with more pic and less glare if i can figure it out. I'm not really all that coordinated haha. Maybe the wifey will help me over come a shortcoming in the photography area and we can actually have something cool to look at and identify. Thanks for all the info and help guys its a great reminder that people are still good in this world. All the best, Dan

P.S. Is that to say i need to stock some pure blood bluegill? I just saw that post.(enter embarrassed emoticon here). If thats the case it really makes sense to revert back to pures instead of the hybrid. If it was done in a short time frame, as not to starve the medium sized bass, could I fish out the hybrids and replace with pures?

Dan, the original HBG stocked are the only fish that will grow to a larger size. The parent HBG will reproduce, but mostly male offspring (around 95% male) and the offspring are VERY inferior (DNA damaged) than the parents.

What few female offspring produced from the original HBG parents that spawn with the male offspring (or original male HBG)revert back more toward the Green Sunfish (GSF) that the originals were crossed with.

Now, for the benefit of our beloved member Jhap,I have to say that GSF are beautiful fish and prolific breeders. I also have to say thaat GSF are a nasty little pest in a pond, but stunted offspring from HBG are even worse. The GSF will quickly produce so many fish that there is simply not enough food in a pond to feed all of them and they can't grow much...thus they stunt, usually at around 3 inches.

Three inch fish are great forage for a bass 9 inches long, but too much work to catch for the calories gained for a bass 12-16 inches long. The bass in that size range do not have a fish near the size to make it grow so they merely survive on the small fish and never grow bigger.

If needed, adding pure northern strain (aka straight) bluegill will allow your forage base (the bluegill) to recover all size ranges your bass need to grow properly. Unlike a HBG, BG will produce equal numbers of males and females and LOTS of babies of equal quality to the parents for the bass to eat. The babies that survive will grow as big or bigger than the parents.

We like pictures!

When you do, it would help us gauge the size of the fish if there was something near the fish that was a good indicator of the size. A ruler or tape measure is perfect.....

Well then pictures it is! I'am heading there shortly(after the kids head off to school) and will go crazy with the camera. It sounds like i need to be ready to restock with the straight BGs as it were. Oh yea?? Why dont I get the dancing fish saying I subscribe? haha.

This is a great post and can't wait for pictures.

With pics and info we can likely do an assessment or at least help you decipher what you are seeing. Having Nate look will be a big plus. In reading Trophy Bass (an excellent book) keep in mind that you are in a cooler climate than most trophy bass lakes.

ok ...theres a million of these and smaller. Also, I must be a little slow getting back to the groove...I left my solar bats on the dash of the sled last week when I was salmon fishing in Oregon. Consequently the glare is still abound ...duh! Ahh well. It rained like the dickens last night so the water is awful cloudy. Visibility has been reduced to probably 4 or 5 ft.


p.s. The wife says she'll run the camera so I don't look like such a goof to my new found friends so expect some better and more animation on Tuesday hehe.

#3 looks like a straight bluegill to me, but something is odd about it....I'm not sure about any of them as to exact species/cross, but they all look underfed.

Well they are not pure GSF and I am not sure they are HBG. One of them looks like it could be a BG/RES hybrid.

Let the experts come in and give their thoughts.

Those are some nice CC you have though, how big are they?

All those look like BG to me. Both male and female.

I agree with Scott (esshup). BG. Great thread and very informative! Here is a picture of a HBG, which does not match any of those that you posted. Notice the much bigger mouth and the orange bottom fins and trim on the tail.



number 3 looks similar to the pure strains that I catch up here.

The cats are any where from 3 t 10 lbs. The small school of them is probably around 5 to 7. I agree with the under fed thing. Is theat going to be due to over population or just not being grain fed often enough? The bg/hbg/res...what ever they are hehe. do eat meals with the cats. I generally feed every other day and give them about 20 to 25 minutes worth of pellets. Too little? Which generally works out to 3.5 1 lb coffee cans worth. I'd like to get away from bag food entirely if possible but I know at this point its not real likely. The dorsal on the top pic is what I was thinking for the hybrid and the rounder front to the body. But I definitly agree that they look more like the one in the lower pic. Agreed on the pro evaluation. Its time to call the experts

So is that the typical size of BG you catch each time you fish or do you catch any smaller?

I only ask because if you are not catching them much smaller than that, I think the bass are doing "too well" at keeping their numbers down, which is probably why the smaller bass seem healthy and the Big Head Skinny Body fish are missing meals as the BG are just not making it to the ideal size for them to eat.

We have some friends that have the same situation as you minus the CC. I have to say my little girls have enjoyed catching the BG and find them tasty as well.

I think you are going to have to have a fishing party and pull out some Bass and as many crappie are in there.

At least now you have some sort of ID about you BG population and maybe some experts can steer you in the right direction.

I do catch smaller ones but that really is the average size. My experience with catching them is limited as I don't fish with hooks small enough for them to get it in their mouth lol. So in your opinion I have to many small bass? What to take out and what to leave in and what to stock is the question for Nate I think as I must admit I'm knowledgeable but in this case not the master of all things. The kids like the action of the small abundant fish but if they are hindering the larger ones achieving full potential I must do something eh?

Get Nate out there, tell him your goals for the pond and he'll work his magic.

Yep, a whole LOT of fishin!...

All BG. If you have a bunch of those you may be in better shape than you think.

Just tuning in to this thread, and am a pretty rank amateur myself, but I have to agree with Esshup - these all look like regular ole' bluegill. I don't see anything that makes me think hybrid.

Omaha, you are correct. From all the reading I've done, they may attain a state in which one of the parent species' traits become very dominant, but it does not seem that a hybrid will EVER actually change its genetics to another species, even if it's a parent species. Maybe we'll get some true expert feedback on this to confirm or refute, but I'm with you 100%.

Omaha
I've got some new HBG off spring in my pond. I'll take a few picture we can look at right noe there more gill loking then the sunfish. But them being small and me being old I'll have to let ya look at them

This is and offspring from my pond 80% HBGs What do you think?

Definitely looks very BG to me.

I need to catch a few more to really see what what. I'm think if the sizes start coming on up. I'll start keeping a few of the large ones 7 to 8" to make room for these. Right now they're bass bait. lol

I think that one is from the 20%. BG

Agreed, that fish has no Hybrid or Green sunfish that I see.

Pure BG

BG not a HBG. You likely won't find HBG offspring as the 20% BG will produce 80% + of the offspring.

You need to post the other offspring picture you have posted on bigbluegill.com it is the one that looks more like a hybrid and it could even be a BG x HBG offspring.

Please post it and get the experts opinion on it.

Thanks

Dan...

Have you considered stocking Tilapia in the spring to help supplement the forage for your bass? BG will increase in number due to less predation and bass will gain a good deal of weight. If you do this and harvest your smaller bass in the slot that has been recommended, it will go a long way to help correct your problem.

Wow guys! I cannot relay how busy I've been! My pops recently was diagnosed with cancer. He visited between cheemo treatments and that has been a real treat. He lives on the west coast and other than a short (3week) mountain bike vacation in August I haven't seen him in a few months. His recent visit has been great and he just left for home for the next treatment on the 1st. I'm afraid(patiently) that my efforts will resume next year. I haven't seen any damage done by time ...only balance. The problems (if they are as bad as I think) will be there in the spring and it seems I'll have more options then than I do now. Going into the hunting season is not the time for me to bite off another management task, having hunters in and out will occupy most of my time and not lend much extra. If we could resume this topic of conversation in the spring I would be most grateful. also...lol I still want the "I subscribe dancing fish" Hope you all have had it good and all the best for the future. Dan.