The re-stocking plan to recover from massive fish kill is coming together.
http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=129488&fpart=1

It appears that the only survivors are limited numbers of 3-6 inch CNBG and a few LMB that I cannot document by catching.
Possibly some TFS survival seen “skipping around” in mid-pond area, as well as assumed tilapia survival.

Water quality has improved considerably since running aerator 24/7 since mid July.
Visibility appears to be around 10-12 inches at an angle from shore – no boat to get vertical secchi disk measurement.
Daytime near surface water temp ~80 degrees.

As soon as water temp is in the 70 degree range, subject to Overton’s OK on water quality, I’m going to “throw the book” at re-stocking.

Primary goal is to produce the quickest and “baddest” large HSB and CNBG fishery as possible.
Secondary goal is for son Jeff to have a few “quality” LMB.

What size and numbers of HSB, “pure” Florida CNBG, and LMB would be your plan to achieve this goal?

3 sizes of CNBG - 100 adults (6in) 300 (3-5 in) and 1000 2in.

1 load of TShad

50 adult RES

50 lbs of FH

100 12in HSB , 75 6in HSB and 150 3-4 in HSB

next spring 20 female LMB 12 in. if you can be sure no male LMB in the pond if not then skip them and wait to see if LMB yoy next spring.

Feed , feed , feed - aerate.

Eric; 50 pounds of FH?

Ewest Plan:
~$2500 - $3000 retail

NEXT? -----

George did I have an option of moving larger HSB from the small pond ? If yes then add some of the larger ones also.

A wise man once posted:
"No regrets - best five years of my life ever."
_______________________________________________

Too CHEAP!

Yep 50 - those HSB , LMB and big BG got to eat and so do those small LMB next spring. I am guessing that there are a few Tshad (not enough) and some LMB (20 lbs total) still there with a few BG . They will need to eat also.

This is an exercise in guess work after all. Idea is to create a full set of fish - now - based on George's goal ASAP.

You want to go up or down on that, george?

Yes the option to move larger HSB to main pond is wide open.....
I want to re-establish stocking ladder ASAP...
Appreciate "best case" scenerio...

Al, I’m considering all options to restore fishery ASAP - that means “gitteredone.



YES...
Maybe not all at the same time tho – I’m considering a “stocking ladder” of adult male CNBG as well as annual HSB stocking that has worked so well for me...

Eric, many thanks for your “best case” plan.
I have seriously considered all aspects of your plan and major problem seems to be availability of time sensitize seasonal species with problematic logistics.

Theo, “downward” plan would be sensible since my time and energy level is limited.
I want to spend most of my time fly fishing and not “managing”.

Bruce, I intend to stock “all male” adult Florida strain CNBG within reasonable limits, due to small existing BG population, hopefully controlling reproduction with limited effort.
My understanding of “sexing” BG will be size dependent of 4+inches?

Hopefully heavy feeding program will limit forage needs, tilapia will be a major factor, limiting BG dependency.

I would like to keep LMB to a minimum, if at all. I would consider a “limited number” (?) of BC and defer LMB stocking until a later date when my son has time to maintain BG/LMB “balance”

Goal of outstanding HSB fishery is my highest priority goal; feasible by annual stocking “ladder” and optimum feeding program.

My dream/goal is to restore our “trophy” size CNBG and HSB to an outstanding sport fly-fishing pond.
Is it even feasible to attempt to achieve this goal, given the circumstances of my wife and I being the only one to fish and manage the pond, considering our limited time and energy resources?

One can manage a pond with energy, time, or money, george. Application rates can be skewed towards any of those 3 inputs. You could have the pond e-shocked back in to your desired balance in a few years if needed, no?

True..

Nate, any ideas for a fly fishing pond?

George my prior suggestions were for a self sustaining pond subject to management. Not a put and take fishery. For a put and take pond my suggestion would be :

No LMB - I think (assume) you will have them anyway from the survivors.

CNBG - 1000 adults (6in) - Male only - you will probably have reproduction anyway from the survivors

1 load of TShad (5-6000 fish)

50 adult RES all male

30 lbs of FH

100 12in HSB , 75 6in HSB and 150 3-4 in HSB and 25 3lb+ HSB from the small pond.

No tilapia - you don't need the forage - If you need them for weeds then 50 males.

For what you want you don't want reproduction in the pond. Why tie up carrying capacity in small unwanted fish.

Feed , aerate and be ready to restock as needed.

George I have some thoughts?
Why put in a load of threadfin shad? I would spend that money on fish food and bigger fish for a put and take fishery. Also I wouldnt put in any fatheads either.

I just checked out Overtons website for the first time, and it seems like he charges an arm and a leg for his fish. Must be a Texas thing? Up here I pay $2.90 for a pound of fatheads, $.33 for all types of bluegill and $.75 for a 6" HSB.

This is what I would do if I was you (George) with a 2 acre pond with some remaining smaller fish and a goal of an immediate trophy put and take Coppernose and HSB fishery.

I would call up Overtons and see what is the biggest HSB and Coppernose Bluegill that they will have available. Then I would make some sort of trade or bargain of some sort to knock the price of them down a bit. Then I would purchase about 100 of the biggest HSB and 200 of the biggest Coppernose Bluegill. I myself would not waste the time or effort to determine if they were males or females. (The large HSB will limit the yoy) Then I would also stock 100 of the 8" HSB and 100 of the 4-6" Coppernose bluegill this fall as well. (they will be ready to eat next year). Then in the spring you can determine what program you would like to roll with.

For forage I would stock some Tilapia (depending on what is still left and how many works for your pond) and then I would keep that Texas Hunter pumping food at those fish. If $$$ is not a big factor, then I would consider some of the threadfins.

Just some thoughts. Keep us posted!

Todd is on vacation on a mountaintop in Colorado at ths time.
I value his opinion as well as other respondents, and look forward to his recommendation when he returns.
We discussed the program briefly before he left on vacation.

George after discussing your entire scenario with a few folks, what would you think about stocking adult Hybrid Bluegill instead of Coppernose? I dont know much about coppernose seeing as they dont live around here, but I do know that a Hybrid Bluegill will devour a pellet fly and battle about 15 seperate times before learning a bit about anglers. (must be the green sunfish genes that keeps these fish so dumb?)

I guess that would be my question to you George, do coppernose get hook shy? or finicky with changing weather conditions etc?

I am anxious to find out what Todd has available for this fall?

Also gonna change my suggestions a bit and would consider lots of Tshad as soon as they are available!

Hi Nate, maybe it’s the BG that produces the “dumb” gene because I catch CNBG cast after cast around the feeders on pellet flies.
The only time they are “leader shy” is in clear water and that is a seldom occurrence on our ponds.

The big bulls are the wariest, but I target them with foam bugs such as hoppers and gurglers. They are subject to extreme weather changes as are most species.

HBG aren’t a popular species of any pond folks I know, but are a very common “fish truck” species from Arkansas. I do know that Overton does not hatch or recommend them.
However, they would alleviate the over populatin problem.

Appreciate your help very much.
George

Good to hear about the Coppernose. I wish they would live around here!!!

Quite a few years back I was sold a few thousand coppernose from that "free fish" guy from Arkansas. I was very green to the fish business and listened to that guy rather religiously soaking up as much info as possible. I was going to grow ginormous coppernose! needless to say I was a Sucker and none of them made it through the winter.

HBG are very popular up here! They are 15 times dumber than regular bluegill and eat like pigs. Contrary to popular belief, they top out at about 3/4 of a pound, but they get there quick.

Later George,
I have to start working.

That sucks George. Your first HSB thread was one of the first threads that I read when I was lurking this board. I am sure with what you've learned so far and what people suggested you will come back 5 times better.

I'm Back!!!! Holy Moly you all are way ahead of me......

Here are my recommendations for George, subject to tweaking by the forum members and subject to fish availability.

I am assuming that George's pond has a decent standing population of small bluegill and threadfin shad. This could be verified with sampling gear but has not yet been done.

Fall 2008
100 of largest HSB available, probably around 12" from my farm (2007 fish), plus maybe some larger fish from George's small pond.

100 intermediate HSB, around 6".

250 graded 4"+ (mostly male) pure coppernose bluegill. By grading the top off my crop of CNBG George may get all 5"+ or 6"+ fish, which will be mostly the faster growing males. I specify the 4"+ just for cover.

50 adult florida bass 1 lb average because this is Jeff's pond and because I believe the ponds needs some large mouths to consume small bluegill from an assumed population boom due to lack of predation for many summer months

5-10 grass carp

Large redears, as available from other small pond. Large redear hard to find at my farm.

I don't believe that LMB will threaten to overpopulate or overcompete in this pond managed for big bluegill and HSB. In fact I believe we could stock more than 50 fish. Male LMB can help control CNBG numbers and female LMB may grow to be something for Jeff. This pond started out to be an LMB pond then over time HSBs were stocked and it seems as if LMB numbers declined. Visibility is relatively low, usually less than 12", and there is normally little or no shoreline vegetation for cover. With this type of habitat and with George's HSB/CNBG management plan I doubt we'll have issues with LMB overpopulation.

For the record I don't intend to take George's arm or leg for these fish......

we were using George's assessment (few LMB and few TShad and few BG). I think there are more than just a few there. I agree on your assessment. That is why I suggested considerable forage fish. The fish that are there will quickly try to fill the pond to capacity. So this will not be a true put and take fishery except as to the HSB as it will have breeding populations of CNBG and LMB.

I am sure there are other customers (hint , hint) who would like some of those high grade CNBG and HSB. -

Welcome home Todd - know ya'll had a well deserved vacation.
I'm excited about the stocking plan - lets go for it....!!!!!!

Todd, I'll send you a signed check - just fill in the blanks.....
I want my litlle slice of heaven back...

Or his flyrod, would probably be more appropriate.

Todd, dont take me too serious. I am learning fast about some other popular terminology such as "Supply and Demand" and "You get what you pay for" I am also learning that it is money well spent to get the absolute best fish available!

Your plan sounds like a good one for George.

George, Hope you had a great labor day weekend!!

Restocking “Fish Kill” N.E. Texas Pond
Phase I:
As per recommendations from Todd Overton, plans for restocking “fish kill Pond is as follows:

Stock 150 adult size pure Florida CNBG instead of 250 due to higher survival rate than previously realized.

Stock 100 6+ inch 2008 class HSB and no 12+ inchers as previously recommended due to high numbers of HSB in 1/4 acre pond,

Phase II will begin next spring with stocking of 50 DNA Certified Florida LMB as recommended, in addition to recommended numbers of tilapia and grass carp.
Transfer addional 15-20, 2006 and 2007 class HSB to main pond.

Overton recommends a “bacterial” program to attempt to control excess nutrients that are beyond our control due to up-stream livestock.
He reports success in a similar situation.

Yesterday ~150 ½# average pure Florida CNBG and 100 6+ inch HSB were picked up at Overton Fish Farms and stocked in our 2 acre pond.
Air temp was 81 degrees and near surface water temp was 71.5.
Water viability measured on a “slant” was 20 inches.
Excellent survival rate – no floaters last evening or this morning.

I realize now that our fish kill may have been a blessing, for a second chance to correct previous stocking mistakes.

A trip to Overton Fish Farm will change a perceived feeling of failure to a feeling of assured success!! What a resource – 30 ponds on 50 acres.

I an now the proud new owner of ~150 pure Florida CNBG that is likely the best crop of adult CNBG this side Florida. They are primarily males with a few large high characteristic Florida females.

The feed trained pure CNBG were grown out in a “ non-commercial” pond that had not been seined in 1½ years – I was told that these fish are not offered to the general public.
Actually I was getting some of my own fish back, after having donated several years ago some of my original pure Florida stock.

Life is good ...

Very nice fish. Congrats on the beginning of another beautiful thing

Gorgeous george.

George I think I am getting the rest of those CNBG next week plus some big RES and 100 6 inch Fla LMB and 50 12 inch HSB.

Pics after the event.

Ewest is getting a stock of 3"-6" coppernose offspring that resulted from crossing George's males with some florida females. The florida females come from a lake that was one of the first in Texas stocked with pure florida coppernose genetics, which has remained at least "phylogenetically pure" since then. The wild bluegill from the private lake have red tails, which you can view on our website. These fish crossed with George's males have produced some fine stock, which we continue to improve.

These fish that George posted were 7"-9" in length and averaged 1/2#. This size bluegill is not for sale on our farm because they are in limited supply. George let us have some in the past, and so we are letting him have them back.

The pics of these fish send chills down my spine. They are beautiful.

I woke up early this morning like a little kid on Christmas morning, realizing that Santa had brought a present that every little kid had ever dreamed.

Last week I got a call from Overton after first seining a CNBG pond in 1 ½ years …
“George - GOOD NEWS….!!! You can’t imagine the quality of fish that came out of that pond!!!!”

When I first arrived at Todd’s fish farm Saturday afternoon he had a couple of customers picking up fish, and he told me he had been busy and had not finished grading my fish. I had the pleasure of watching and photographing him hand selecting each and every CNBG I received, plus the previously graded fish.

Prior to our fish kill in July, I had been culling Arkansas fish farm CNBG for 2 years, keeping the best Florida characteristics possible, and it appears that most 5-6 inch CNBG fish kill survivors are descendants of that population.

I should get a spawn from my new stock before winter sets in, as previous years we have had BG spawns as late as mid November.

Many of you folks know Todd as a customer or friend, but for those that don’t know is that Todd personally selects superior brood stock for all species he produces on his farm.
I don’t know why anyone in this part of the country would buy fish off an out-of-state fish truck.
Thanks Todd

Great stuff George. And make sure you post photos Ewest.

What a great resource to have Overton's near you. The only fish supplier DIED and I have been able to deal with is a good guy (albeit a little strange acting and remember that is coming from JHAP). Most of the fish suppliers around us won't even answer the phone and if the phone recorder is on they never call you back. Frustrating at times.

I have only read good stuff about Overtons.

I'm glad it looks like everything is going to work out with your pond's restocking George.

Good News Man!
I love a good stocking plan!!
Fish Stocking is in full season here for me. We have stocked more than 2 million fish this season, bringing trucks from 7 different states. I just wish there was a good source of fish like Overtons in my area!!!

Fall re-stocking complete ...

~150 Overton's Texas Strain CNBG 7-9 inches, mostly male.
~400 RES +&- 3 inch
~250 HSB:
16, ~3-4# 2006 class
34, ~2-3# 2007 class
200, ~6 inch 2008 class

FISH KILL BLESSING IN DISGUISE....!
Caught examples of each last night...

Spring 2009 plan:
25 ~1# certified Florida LMB for son Jeff
15# Tilapia

Update:
Moved up son Jeff's LMB stocking plan due to one of our esteemed Mississippi Pondmeister cornering the market on Overton's certified Florida LMB, and having to settle for 100 advanced fingerling feed trained northern LMB ...

Spring plan will be to stock certified Florida LMB fingerlings in soon to be phased out "grow-out" pond, and transfer to main pond late spring/early winter.

George I bet long term you will like the mix of Fla and Northerns better. Sorry I depleted the pantry. I did place my order about a year ago.

July 2008 fishkill, re-stocking 2 acre pond complete with all ADULT fish.

those are some sweet looking fish.

Did you stock those today George? Those HSB look real nice, I wanna some some 5 pounders in a couple years!

Nice looking fish George, hope the bacteria helps solve some of problem.

CJ, 50 (“annual stocking ladder”) 2008 class HSB were stocked Friday.
The 2 larger “bonus” fish were 2007 class.

Total replacement HSB in main pond after fish kill:
16, 2006 Class
34, 2007 Class
250, 2008 Class

2006 class fish were ~4lb when transferred from “grow-out” pond this spring...
Gonna be some fun on the fly...