Hey guys,

I believe there was a thread or threads on this topic but can’t find it now.. was curious about cutting the tails off small bluegill to create extra forage food for the preditors, and eliminate some of the competition from the larger bluegill allowing them more food. Just wondered who had experience with doing this and if they had any input or suggestions. The pond has mostly bluegill in it but also has LMB, HSB, CC, RES, GSH, FHM, female perch, and male crappie. The all female perch and all male crappie are to prevent over population since they can be such prolific breeders. All the fish caught are very healthy and in the upper relative weight percentage. The last few years we have been keeping LMB between 10-15 inches as well as bluegill between 7 and 9 inches. We have been keeping most of the CC caught.

Is there any rules of thumb on how many bg i could cut the tails off at a time? Like should I only do so many per day bc it would be easy to put on a tiny hook and ultra light tackle and catch a hundred bluegill in a couple hours but should I not do too much at once? It is a 1 acre pond and now that it has been established the only stocking I’ve done the last two years was 100 pounds of GSH and 50 pounds of FHM per year. That has helped to keep the fish growing fast but want to find a way to eliminate some of the costs of stocking but still get the excellent growth rate. IMO it seems like I could cut the tails on 100 smaller bluegill per day and not dent the population if I keep throwing my breeders back. I feel like I could give them more forage than the 150 pounds per year that is costing me over 1,000 bucks per year in just stocking. My plan was to not harvest bluegill this year at all throw everything back over 7 inches and cut the tails off everything under 7 inches and return them for forage food.

Any other insight would be great!

A disproportionate part of your < 7 in BG will be females. Can you ID male and female BG? An easier way to remove small BG is with a seine. Not sure what your goals are from above. Unless the populations are unbalanced you should not need to be stocking more fish (forage) every year. If your RW are all good you should try no additional forage with increased predator harvest , depending on goals. 150 lbs of additional forage is not much (but expensive) in a pond full of fish. 25 1 lb LMB will easily eat 150 lbs of forage a year.

Yea I have been removing every bass in the 10-15 inch range which is the size of the majority of the LMB caught.. I have caught a few 3 and 4 pound LMB that were returned to the water. We harvest every CC caught under 15 pounds. We have a few very large channels in the 15-20 pound range that we have returned to the water but everything else gets kept.

I was just looking for anyone that had experience cutting the fins off small bluegill to make them easier to eat for the gamwfish. I’m not wanting to remove small bluegill and I don’t have an over population of bluegill to the point the are stunted I’m simply looking for ways to sustain my excellent growth weights without the expense of regular forage fish stockings. Thanks for getting back with me I really do appreciate any input but wasn’t exactly looking for advice on my pond goals. Looking any kind of rules of thumb on how many I can cut the tails on a regular basis without impacting the pond negatively as bluegill are the main forage species in the pond.

I do like your idea of seining I have a 50 foot seine I have used on one corner of my pond with pretty good success. I fish it so much I enjoy doing that wondering how many I can cut the tails on a regular basis.

AF, you have a very interesting idea!

Don't know the answers, but I will say that when I fished for tiger musky I caught a 12 inch bass and cut off most of the fins. Sat on a point and soaked the bait, and after a couple of hours the biggun hit, streaking away with the bass. Both my buddy and myself could hear the theme music from Jaws!

Sadly, I didn't give the monster time to swallow, so hookset failed. But the fact that the tiger musky went for the finless LMB is an indication that such prey signals vulnerability, I think.

Please tell us how this goes.

PS This happened on private waters. Not illegal.

Aqua You can remove the fins from small bluegill to make them easier for your LMB to eat. You will need to keep in mind that bass can normally only eat bluegill up to 1/3 of their lenght.Most pond managers recommend taking out 20 to 40 lbs per acre of LMB a year and four times that weight in BG each year to maintain a balanced pond. You will need to monitor the relative weights of your fish to gauge growth of your LMB and BG. The most cost effective way to add weight to your LMB is to feed your forage fish a good quality fish food.Some feeds provide close to a 2:1 conversion rate for forage fish. A quality bag of fish food will usually cost around $50 for a 50# bag. That 50# bag will add 25# of weight to your bluegill. It normally takes 10# of BG for a LMB to gain 1lb.When feeding forage fish you have to keep in mind that fish are mostly made up of water so your net gain may be minimal

I started cutting the tails off of. GSF about three years ago and have caught several where the tail had regrown.I now cut off the tail,and dorsal fin ,then clip one of the pectoral fins which makes the fish swim erratically ringing the dinner bell for the LMB.

Tubguy, thanks for the info! Sounds like you've developed a good system.

In an earlier comment you mentioned taking out 20 to 40 lb of smaller LMB per acre to achieve balance, which agrees with what I've read from the experts. But then you seemed to say that four times more BG should be taken out, which I haven't heard before. Did I misunderstand?

It seems to me if I take and cut the fins off 100 small bluegill won’t that just open up the opportunity for small fry to take their place. In addition allowing more food for my breeder bluegill allowing them to grow larger as well as produce more fry to replace the fish I’m forcing into food.

I’m looking for a way to take the pond to the next level. A pond can only hold so many fish so by consistently turning bluegill into food it’s transfering that weight to my bass and catfish and larger bluegill. Currently I’m stocking tons of forage and all my preditors are thriving and overweight but wanting to find a way to produce that automatic forage without having to pay the stocking fees.

I understand and yes you can cut off forage fish tails/fins and let the predators eat them. It takes lots of work.

A pond is like a engine. It requires maintenance and if you run it too hard it may break. Also the harder it runs the more likely that something will break. If you are not feeding then that is an effective method of increasing forage. It is much better than constantly adding fish. Another way to increase production is to keep your water healthy and fertile. Fertility and feeding can create a 4X step-up in production. The more you push the pond production up the more likely that you will have problems and it requires more knowledgeable work on maintaining pond health.

Suggest everyone read the links below !

Pond Carrying Capacity - archive

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=201295&page=1

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92440#Post92440


String of Pearls – Pond Mgt - archive

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92453#Post92453

Thanks, Eric. I'm dealing with fertility issues as well, and this helps me think through the options.

Great links I’ve read and referred to all of them many times I’ve read this forum for almost a decade before I actually joined and started posting.

My pond water fertility for the most part stays pretty stable I do get a lot of flush on my pond so nutrient levels can get down temporarily during periods of high rain. but with feeding The highest quality fish foods every day it doesn’t take long for my fertility to get back up. My water stays an nice greenish blue most of the year blue from the aqua die and green from a pretty consistent algae bloom that does vary but is somewhat controllable thru feeding. If I could figure out how to add photos to this website(sorry I spend my time outside not good with computers) my fish are overweight and the vibrance and colors are outstanding unlike anything I’ve seen online. My aerators are rated for 4 acres and it’s only a 1 acre pond I can completely turn it over in 30-60 minutes. I drilled a well 200 feet deep into the Devonian Aquifer that runs thru eastern Indiana allowing me to add up to 20 gallons per minute of pure artisan spring water if I ever need to flush my pond or lower the temperature. Naturally the PH is a little high considering the water comes out of Limestone but this also stabilized the PH and the fish love the fresh cool water. I stock over a grand worth of forage every year and spare absolutely no expenses when it comes to managing the pond. I do believe the additional forage stocked on top of the already great forage in the pond on top of the feeding, aeration and extremely careful stocking management and culling program I couldn’t be happier with the results of my pond so far.

I was just wondering if anyone on here that has actual experience with cutting the fins off bluegill for additional forage. My bluegill aren’t stunted they are the primary forage fish in the pond and I have many bluegill over a pound in weight. These are all pure bred bluegill too not hybrids. What I’m most curious about is getting those fish in that 4-8 inch range turned into forage base.. not quite big enough to harvest yet starting to get to the size where only the largest preditors in the pond can eat them. And they are competing with my trophy bluegill for food plus the cuckholder males are stealing breeding rights from my parental males. And it seems if i take out a bunch of those medium fish it will allow the fry and fingerlings to take their place quickly bc they won’t have any competition. Some of these fry and fingerlings will naturally be a higher percentage of parental males since those are the only type of males that I’m allowing to reproduce. It seems like taking these fish out is a benefit every way you cut it.

Sorry not trying to be rude but it seems to me on all of the posts you have made on this thread you are just dismissing my question and just trying to tell me i need to do a better job at managing my pond. With all do respect if you think you have it all figured out and already know everything there is to know and that we can’t get any better and learn new things and tricks than i feel sorry for you bc your life and situation will never get any better even if it could bc you have already made that decision for yourself haha. If you don’t have any experience using this method and you don’t have any links to information on this topic, no problem than this post might just not be for you no hard feelings! You don’t have to take time out of your day to post just move along. If you already know everything why even get on these forums? Lol. Just to be a naysayer? Lolol. I’ve seen lots of ppl complaining about naysayers on here and I know what they are talking about now. Hahaha

AF, this thread was going fine until this last paragraph. Not sure I've ever seen anybody belittle the posters that offered help, while taking a more general strike at the forum members as a whole. It stops here. Period.

So in answer to some of your questions (I hope).

I don't remember any posts about long term crippling of BG, but there are several of us that do short term crippling. And by that I mean, these fish are not expected to get far from where they were thrown in.

I use 2 different methods when crippling BG. If I catch a greenie, I use a cheap pair of orange fiskar sewing scissors, and cut the caudal fin off as close to the body as possible. I also cut one gill, and they're eaten by the LMB instantly. On BG, I use a pair of wire dykes, and cut up into the body at a 45 degree angle from the base of the caudal fin. This creates a lot of movement, but very little propulsion.

I've been crippling CNBG for going on 5 years now, at 3 different pond locations, and I can tell you with almost 100% certainty what is going to happen when you start hand feeding the crippled BG to your LMB in mass. We have a 6-9" slot here, and hand feed 8 to 10 of those fish a day to my LMB. What has repeatedly happened is that the LMB start waiting on a meal if the daily time and location stays the same. This has 2 results. 1, you'll be getting rid of BG you want out of there, and 2, your LMB will get really fat, but they'll quit being predators and become consumers. And by that I mean they'll become almost uncatchable on anything other than live bait. If that's ok with your recreational plans, then crippling and hand feeding is the way to go.

I stick with the slot for several reasons, but primarily I'm targeting the gape size of the LMB I want to feed. I've often seen 5-6# LMB hit a 4" CNBG, and then swim away. Those fish need larger forage to continue the rapid growth you would want, and all a smaller CNBG did was kill their appetite. I really didn't help them any unless the forage fully fit the LMB's gape. My personal experience leads me to believe that larger 5"+ BG would be a better fit for what you want.

If you do this, I would probably change locations and times daily.


I only feed 7-8 LMB a day, so I'm no help on a 1 acre pond having BG culled.

I was contemplating sharing my predator grow out strategies until reviewing this offering above, your reply is far gentler than mine would have been, Al.

While you state you're not fond of advice, I see you're in dire need of some:

I strongly recommend refraining from casting insults towards forum members who are simply trying to share their pond management expertise with you - advice many folks nationwide pay plenty for. These naysayers are my family - be respectful, or go.

Excellent feedback FireIsHot thank you! That’s exactly what I was looking for. I didn’t even come close to taking a general strike at the forum if it seemed like that to you then please go back and reread what I wrote carefully. I value this thread highly and everyone as a whole seems extremely helpful and wholeheartedly just trying to help. This was the exception to that he was simply dismissing my question and telling me I need to do a better job at manageing my pond.

I wasn’t under the impression that fish only feed once per day. Most forage type fish are grazers and will continue to eat all day. But now that you say that if you think about it a large catfish or grouper really any preditors that eats huge meals up to and over half their size, once they get a huge meal in them they go and rest and digest while conserving energy. It makes sense that if they get a meal only half the size that they can actually eat that might limit their potential.

It seems I’ll have better success with what I’m doing if I narrow my target size down from 4-8 inches to more of a 6-7 inches. Not only will this allow me more fish in the 8-9 inch range that can be harvested for food but it allows all the smaller bluegill to remain filling the void left by the potential over harvest of a particular size bluegill. These 6-7 inch bluegill are probably much more competitive with my trophy bluegill than the smaller bluegill as well. Any other info or experience like that would be greatly appreciated it!

Anthropic I found an old post from 2011 that Bill Cody posted referring to removing bluegill following a bass to BG ratio. I saved the article to my desktop at home and I will try to post a link in the near future.

Thanks, I hadn't seen it.

You can make sub adult and smaller adult BG vulnerable to predation of larger fish by fin trimming. Suggestions were noted above to target a certain size of predator. I have mentioned several previous times in posts about fin trimming of removed fish as food for predators. IMO it is best to spread the fin trimming as regular sessions over the entire growing season.

Adding supplemental stockings of lots of forage fish does take the predatory pressure off the BG which does promote more BG in the pond because supplimentally stocked forage is much easier for predators to capture compared tofish grown in the pond with the predators and predators then tend to get ‘lazy’. It is a behavior thing.

Try itand report back with your results so others can learn more about this method.

I looked back to be sure that I was not doing what was suggested.

Here is the direct answer I provided on page 1 -Quote - " I understand and yes you can cut off forage fish tails/fins and let the predators eat them. It takes lots of work.".




Your question to me is really what is shown below which is more complicated. It s seems to really be - by cutting off the tails of BG so predators can more easily eat them can I replace the extra forage fish I have been stocking yearly with out reducing predator growth and condition ?



You ask for any other insight. While cutting off tails to make predation easier does reduce the energy used by predators to catch them it does not increase the available food supply. In energetics terms you get a plus on the energy used end but no added energy ( a negative) into the pond. To answer the question you have to consider would some or most of the fin clipped fish been eaten anyway and what the predator energy savings results are. Then compare that to the energy value you have been, but will no longer be, adding by supplemental stocking. I hope this makes some sense from a total pond perspective. That is why I reference the linked threads on energy use and carrying capacity.

At no time did I tell or suggest that you were not managing your pond correctly.

My guess , and it is a guess is that from an energy perspective it will take a lot of fin clipped BG (predator saved energy)to offset the additional forage you have been stocking.

Also I point out that the Forum has rules against directing negative comments toward any individual. That is uncalled for and not allowed.

That's a LOT of money for forage. I would be in real trouble at home if I spent that much of our funds on forage, feed, or anything pond related.

It's also very time consuming to catch, cripple, and hand feed small BG to LMB. Probably better to get feed trained LMB and buy feed.

There is more return on investment with prepared feed than there is providing forage fish, even if they are "free". Again, catching and preparing them takes a lot of time.

If your goal is large LMB, and you are prepared to do what it takes, either way should work.

AF,

Just curious...if you have so many smaller BG, why do you stock FHM and GSH every year? Do you have areas with grasses etc for the GSH to spawn. Seeing any GSH recruitment or are the BG wiping most of the fry out?

I had two high water events last year that flooded the pond. I thought I lost most of my first two BG spawn over the spillway. In the fall I stocked FHM and GSH to help get my predators thru the winter with the perceived reduced number of BG available. I think I over estimated my BG loss as I have a bunch of 3 to 4 inch BG now. Now I kind of wish I had not stocked the FHM and GSH as that seems to have distracted my predators away from the BG forage.

Not a pro...just ramblings!

I'm confirming you did not, Eric - rather spent significant time trying to provide your fishery management expertise. Appreciate your efforts and patience, probably the only thanks you're going to receive.

No thanks needed TJ - that is why many of us (including you) are here - to try and help others. We all want folks to come and enjoy the Forum and learn. Because I know that the written word can be easily misunderstood I try to check myself so that my comments do not seem negative. None of us have a monopoly on knowledge or the right answers.

Anthropic here is an article from Virginia Department of Game
of Game & Inland Fisheries Conserve. Connect. Protect.

Hunting Fishing Boating Viewing Wildlife Info Conservation Police Education Forms & Permits About

Home Fishing Private Pond Management Pond Management: Managing Fish Populations

Pond Management: Managing Fish Populations

The purpose of fish management is to provide good fishing. Pond owners must decide what they want from their pond and tailor their management to meet their goal(s). Ponds less than 1 acre in size are difficult to manage for bass and sunfish. For ponds larger than 1 acre, a largemouth bass/bluegill fishery is the most popular option for Virginia ponds. Other options for ponds larger than 1 acre may include managing for trophy bass, trophy bluegill or trout. Consult your local fisheries biologist to discuss them.
Harvesting

All ponds have a maximum weight of fish the pond can support. In unfertilized ponds, you should be able to harvest up to 40 pounds of adult bluegill (about 120 fish) and 10 pounds of adult bass (about 8 to 10 fish) per acre per year. In fertilized ponds, you can harvest 160 pounds of bluegill (600 to 700 fish) and 35 to 40 pounds of bass (30 to 35 fish) per acre per year.

Thanks tubguy, great info! Their advice is quite a bit different than what I see so frequently here, though likely a lot of it has to do with goals. Someone interested in lunker bass, for example, might harvest more smaller bass while harvesting fewer BG. More forage fish for fewer predators means faster growth for the predators.

On the other hand, if a balanced pond is desired and sustainable food harvest is important, the Virginia folks are likely correct. At Pond Boss, it seems most folks who really want to raise food focus on CC rather than the classic LMB/BG pairing.

While I enjoy catfish, I like BG from clean cool water even more! That's not my main goal only because my BOW is a 65 minute drive away and I'm not that great at filleting.

Anthropic, I found a few other articles with similar harvest guidelines but they also seemed to be written by state fisheries managers.It always boils down to our goals.I originally responded to this post trying to help a fellow pond enthusiast with a similar geographic location but the thread quickly went south.I thought removing small BG and clipping their fins would be a method of harvesting them. I was eluding to the fact that doing this could be a lot of work but it is possible to remove a large amount of BG from your pond and still have a healthy, productive BOW.My pond is just three years old and my bull bluegills are still only about 7" long so I will wait till year four before I start harvesting the 6" and 7" BG. My goal is a good all around fishing pond for friends and family!

We put in the archives links to State Pond Mgt sites like the one mentioned above. They are a good resource but need to be understood in context. They all originated many years ago as a source for info on food production from ponds (not recreational fishing). Most have evolved and have been updated but because it is a public resource development link the advice is still for mostly unmanaged waters. They do not usually put in cutting edge ideas as that does not fit in their public service mandate. One example is the old 10/1 rule for stocking BG/LMB. This has been replaced by science based on stocking on a goal basis. Harvest should also be based on goals and your facts. Guidelines are good but it all depends !

I have clipped a lot of tail and sometimes dorsal fins on GSF and BG to make them easy prey although I have gotten lazy lately and done less of it. I find it easiest done by using a cheap pair of Harbor Freight scissors that are about 7" long. As I pull the fish out of the water if it is a size that I want to clip I just grab the fish in left hand while it is still on the hook, clip the desired fins with scissors, remove the hook and toss the fish back in. If you keep the scissors handy it takes less than 10 seconds per line caught fish. For most people probably 5 seconds but I am slow.

I do it as opposed to otherwise destroying a fish I was going to cull anyway. If the scissors are not handy I throw them on the bank for the raccoons.

I do not claim fin clipping is a major good or beneficial thing pond wise. I was just brought up by a depression era parents to not waste things and recycling the fish food I feed these fish by turning the unwanted fish into dedicated fish food just seemed like the right thing to do based on my upbringing. Or considering that I spend hundreds of dollars on fish food each year I am just too damn cheap to waste them.

Thanks Ewest for the clarification!!

You can feed yourself (family /friends) or the fish or the coons et al - all have to eat. Responsible pond mgt requires harvest of fish by something. Of course IMO a big waste is to let them die of old age and feed the FA. Even that has pluses as it adds nutrients back into the system. Bottom line all the energy (sunlight to fish) is going somewhere one way or another. No waste as its a question of who gets a meal.