Last weekend my grandson and I ran a 40' sein in water depths to 4 foot. We did two runs on the same end of the pond but different areas and captured cnbg to 1", and 1 - 4" Res along with several 2.5" TFS. We had a few 2" fish jump the net but they were shaped like cnbg. We had no lmb fry sampled. I am going to do another sein this week. I may try it during late evening. And I have seen no lmb fry swimming in the pond. This looks to be my second year with no lmb recruitment. You know, after being on this site for 2 and a half years where most every lmb pond reported, has way to many poor, small lmb. I thought I would tell of pond that does not follow the norm.

Questions anyone ?

That is strange unless you are getting some and, they are just getting ate and the few you have left are not where you are netting. I think I had a record spawn this year... I know I've seen at least 20 or 30 4 or 5 inchers by the dock and I caught one the other night that was about 6 or 7 inches. I'm afraid I have to many... lol

The question is if they are not spawning why? What is wrong in the pond for none of them to try? Or try and fail...

RC

You may be a little early. Keep trying for the next mth. If no LMB fry (which can and does happen)then you need to determine the problem. Will be glad to help. Are you getting yoy BG fry ? What is the seine mesh size ? I can dig up some science on the reasons if you like.

Thanks for the offer of the science, I think the science behind this pond is the pond is loaded with cnbg and res and tfs. And I recently added 30 pounds of fhm's and Tp for the expected lmb hatch. Pond also has some HSB up to 17"s. I think the lmb hatch has been eaten up again this year. And yes were are seeing two new sizes of new cnbg babies. The sein size? I am not sure but the holes were small enough to catch minnows. Timing, this is getting real close to when fisheries start selling 2.5 to 3 lmb fry around here. I thought this might make an interesting post because it has been different from what is posted here 99% of the time when it comes to lmb.

I don't have results yet from this years spawn, but it appears my pond is acting the same way Tracy.

I see no reason my LMB do not create the fry. My current theory is that the BG just wipe them all out. I have not caught a small LMB since the original fish were stocked. Toss out a LMB pattern smallest size crank bait and the BG are all over it.

I would not be to sure the LMB fry/yoy are all being eaten ! There are often many angles to a problem. Have you seen any LMB fry ?

ewest, about 4 to 6 weeks ago I saw a picture posted here from Al(fireishot) of 5 or so lmb fry he located in his pond, and shortly after that I saw the almost exact same in my pond, where they had been in some of the flooded veggies in about 2" of water along the shoreline. Those 5 or so is all I have seen and with all the forage in my pond and with little to no place for the lmb fry to hide, I am pretty sure they were an easy meal. I placed some brush piles along the shoreline after that and now I can watch the 3 and 4" cnbg feed on any fry on the outside of the brush piles. I do have gams and fhm fry along with cnbg fry and maybe some res fry because of different sizes of cnbg, and res yoy in the pond. A little lmb history of the pond. The first lmb fry were added in June of 15 and performed a survey in early March of 16 we shocked up 4 lmb, so very little survival of lmb fry or yoy lmb in 2015. We restocked 85 - 8" to 12" yoy lmb shortly after that survey in 2016 and we surveyed again March 6th of 17 and we shocked up 27 lmb. The average RW/WR was 124 at that time. I believe that lack of lmb survival in 2014 and 15 gave the cnbg and res a big jump in stocking the pond with forage. especially since we had already did a heavy stocking prior to adding any lmb to the pond. There is no vegetative cover in the pond for the lmb fry to hide.

Snrub, we may be in the same place for sure.

I wonder if you have discovered a pitfall of pellet feeding. Maybe the pellet fed CNBG population has exploded well beyond the pond's normal capacity to support due to the extra forage (pellets) and has thrown the balance of LMB to CNBG way off to the point that the CNBG are suppressing all LMB recruitment? Maybe harvest a bunch of CNBG and stock some 8+ inch LMB? An electro shock sampling might prove enlightening on LMB to CNBG ratio.

On the flip side, your existing LMB ought to be growing like crazy!

Just a theory. The pros may chime in and say I'm all wet. I'm ok with that. I can learn something and I'm sure I will eventually dry out!

Bill, We are having similar thoughts here Now as far as an E survey, we recently completed one in early March and as I said, the average Wr/Rw on those lmb was 124. That's pretty good and is headed in the right direction for a Trophy lmb pond where the lmb are few per acre but show some good growth. The cnbg and res samples at that time showed few fish in the 1 to 3" range along with the pond having good numbers of 4" and up. I think the lmb had been feeding on those 1 to 3" cnbg through the winter and that is why numbers of those size were low. Today after a few rolling spawns, I see a lot of 1 to 3" cnbg.
And I will be adding 100 lbs of 8 to 12" lmb in the next two weeks. I am doing this because of no lmb recruitment has been seen, and I don't want to be where all my lmb die of old age at the same time and leave the pond baron of lmb in the future. At some point in the future, I think the lmb will balance out as long as there is some management.

Hmmm interesting theory.... but I been feeding sense 2011 I have CNBG everywhere... and I still have baby lmb. I would continue to think still maybe not enough of the right cover for them? Plus I only supplement feed so I know my BG are hungry and I still have baby lmb. So with that said what is different.... Here is my situation and then you can compare.

1. My water has been very high this year during the spawn. So I think fry have plenty of grass to hide in... / sticks.

2. My pond is 1 acre and I have 8 brush piles in it and one decent size dock for fish to hide in. A big area of cinder blocks and about 5 tires laid around the pond.

3. My pond does not have a very big slope to it, it's pretty shallow for the first 3 or 4 feet. I think this helps as well making it harder for predator fish to get up into the shallows.

I don't know just thinking out loud is all.

Good Luck Tracy

RC

Thanks for your info RC. I think what happened or is happening in my pond was due to lack of predators for the first 18 months of the pond. This allowed many spawns of cnbg and res. I also think when someone starts a pond up with high forage rates (as I did), they should start out with advanced lmb for stocking. I could be wrong but if I did it all over again, I would use advanced fingerlings or yoy lmb for first time stocking.

For those interested, I received some information I had never read before on lmb reproduction suppression through bg numbers. Ewest was kind enough to make this informative study available to me for reading. Maybe when he gets the time, he can post up the study if he get a chance.

Thank you ewest for all you do here to assist we pond guys and gals.

Tracy, I was treating water leaf this morning, and all the 3-4" LMB I found were buried deep in the shallowest available cover. They were cruising with the yoy CNBG. Other than the fry, these were the first yoy LMB I've seen this year.

Pretty sure that if I didn't have shoreline vegetation, they'd be Scooby Snacks for the larger LMB. I guess eat, or be eaten.

That's cool Al. I love to watch the pond for fry. I watch most everyday, I can walk the pond and or just set at the pond for hours. I don't have to catch a fish to enjoy the pond. I do get a little frustrated every now and then with things that reduce my chances of getting me to my pond goals. Attempting to grow out some really nice lmb along with some nice hsb, is not as easy as I once thought. Who ever knew too many cnbg could crowd out lmb? I did not know that. lol

As per Tracy's request - some parts of a study.


Behavioral Suppression of Spawning in Largemouth Bass
by Interspecific Competition for Space
Within Spawning Areas
STEPHEN LEE SMITH
Florida Game and Fresh Water Fish Commission
Eustis, Florida 32726

ABSTRACT
Florida largemouth bass ,Micropterus salmoides florldanus, fail to spawn in association with
Dense populations of stunted sunfish. A recent study indicated that a "physical factor" rather
than a chemical factor may be responsible.
Three hatchery ponds containing marked bass were stocked at different points in the bass
Reproductive cycle with concentrations of sunfish known to suppress spawning. It was determined
that reduced or complete inhibition of spawning of largemouth bass is related to interspecific
population densities in the spawning area and is behavioral in nature. Suppression is linked to
aggressive interaction with other species ,primarily affects the male bass, and is effective in
suppressing the spawning behavior sequence even before nest construction.

As early as 1964 it was noted that Florida
Largemouth bass , ,
failed to produce a year class in several
eutrophic Florida lakes with large populations
of sunfishes (Lepomis spp.) (Horel 1964).
Chew (1972) further documented this phenomenon
and determined that reproductive
failure was due to "a refusal of the adult population
to spawn" and was characterized in the
female by the "retention of enlarged, ripened
ovaries long past the spawning period." He
found that the condition could be reproduced
in hatchery ponds and attributed reproductive
inhibition to the "excretion and build-up of
a hormone-like repressive factor by overcrowded
bream and forage species
Other workers have reported the failure of
largemouth bass to spawn in the presence of
large numbers of sunfish and concluded that
failure was due to either sunfish predation on
the eggs (Swingle and Smith 1943) or to a
repressive factor excreted by sunfishes which inhibited spawning (Swingle 1956; Chew
1974).
Barwick and Holcomb (1976) were the first
to indicate that some other factor may be
responsible. By segregation of bass and sunfish
while allowing free flow of water between areas
they obtained successful bass reproduction
and concluded that suppression of spawning
was probably not due to a chemical substance
excreted into the water. It was postulated
that "lack of reproduction was apparently
associated with a physical factor that in some
way interrupted normal bass breeding activity."
The study reported here was an attempt
to determine the nature of this "physical
factor" and the point in the reproductive cycle
at which it is effective.

The observations reported here indicate that
reduced or complete inhibition of spawning
of largemouth bass is linked to aggressive
interaction with other species primarily affects
the male bass, and is effective in suppressing
the spawning behavior sequence even before
nest building.

Thanks Ewest,

Very interesting info. From this study, one of my takeaways is that the ratio of BG to LMB is not necessarily the more BG the better. There is a tipping point to the balance.

Tracy,

IMO, whether this study applies directly to your situation or not, you are on the right path stocking more LMB. Are you planning to harvest any CNBG?

Thanks ewest for the post up. I believe one or more of the mentioned reproduction suppression situations have come into play @ my pond. I have learned or am learning that lake or pond management does not always go in the desired direction.

Bill, yes I have started some harvesting of the mid sized cnbg (6 to 7"). I moved 35 to my daughters 1/3rd acre pond last week. Maybe I wont screw her pond up but I would not bet on it. And I don't believe fishing for these cnbg will noticeably reduce the numbers of cnbg. They just make two many babies @ 5 spawns per year. I will have to rely on the lmb and the hsb to reduce the numbers. Oh well, the predators should grow to the max this year. At the last PBC I learned of "Couch Potato Bass" and I think I may have some of those

Ewest, Thanks again for the posting of the studies so others may learn. It was the first time I had read of such things. I will say that Clint at Overton's fisheries told me in March of 16, after a survey, that I may run into this lack of reproduction problem. The guys I have worked with @ Overton's, Todd, Clint and Walt know there stuff and recognized what might happen before it did. I just hoped for the best

Tracy, can you fill me in on what a "couch potato bass" might be? I am finding it strange that with all my cnbg like your pond, the lmb I catch are still under 100% relative weight. I simply think with all the easy food they have become lazy.

Wow and I thought I had a LOT of BG and I still have baby bass. So you guys must have a TON of BG lol....

So I guess that bass are basically just saying there are waaaay to many BG so forget it.... like they don't feel safe in even trying cause they know there gonna get it.... so they just give up.

That's interesting...

So in turn then I guess that tells me that my BG population must not be to bad off as I do have some small 5 inch bass...

Cool info Eric.... thanks,

RC

Tracy,

Does this mean you are not going to add more forage this season?

Also, have you caught female LMB with eggs lately?

This is interesting to me. If you collect the data, you could be an example for the books to be updated or reconfirmed.

I may be wrong, but it looks like you added too much forage to start with and mother nature took over. It will be interesting to see what the experts say.

BG stunting and no LMB reproduction are symptoms of the same situation. That is why many stocking suggestions warn of letting the BG and other forage get to far out in front of the predators. Stocking is not the same in all areas of the country and the more species you use the more difficult it is to manage the situation.

Note its not just BG/sunfish that can create this result. Tilapia have also been noted to cause the same result and probably other species could as well.

Very interesting. Had never heard of that.

It may be what happening in my main pond.

I'm going to let it go one more year and see how it plays out.

My forage stocking was in March 2013 and the LMB and CC went in later that September.

I did add 100 f1 LMB fingerlings (about 4") last fall but hard to tell if any survived predation. My hope was the BG forage was so plentiful a few of the new LMB would make it.

My back up plan is if I still see no improvement by next year I can use my sediment pond as a grow out pond for some more LMB fingerlings, raise them to a size to escape predation, then catch and transfer to the main pond. Might get some HSB at same time. Sediment pond currently has 10 adult and some stocked fingerling RES that hopefully will spawn and fill it with RES recruitments this year. Plus whatever BG have swam upstream during high water (I observed 3 2-3" BG so am sure more made it) will be spawning size by fall. No predators in the sediment pond so it should work good to grow out fingerling LMB.

I think this is kinda ironic. Most time were talking about how to get rid of the pesky LMB as we have to many...lol



RC

And you and I probably will be too, in a few years.

I'm just going to be like John Monroe and be happy with what I got in the mean time.

Life is good, even if it doesn't always conform to our wishes.

Balance in BG/LMB ponds is , as I have said many times, like trying to balance on the edge of a knife blade. Balance is not a natural state. The 2 natural states are BG crowded or LMB crowded and ponds move on a spectrum between the 2 depending on the bio system status and management.

Oh ok so I am either actually learning from what you all taught me or I am just flat lucky at the moment.... hehe

So could I assume this could be what's happening with my RES then? I don't seem to have to many anymore and the ones I got are not very big... like 5 inches... could I have enough BG that the RES wont spawn but not enough where the bass don't mind?

Or does this not apply to RES..

RC

RC, I've stocked a lot of Res and seem to remember catching less than 10.

I started up this thread so others might learn. And Thanks to ewest for all he has done with this thread to help explain what is really going on in my pond.

Flame,"Couch Potato Bass" was explained at the last Pond Boss Conference as a LMB that only has to turn his head to eat and never has to off the couch to go get his meal. And that will put extra weight on your lmb in a high forage count pond. It may make them a little harder to catch using artificial but when you do catch one And Flame, as you know I am no expert but have some experience, so passing it along here for you. Hope this help you out. If your lmb are under weight with all the cnbg forage u have, it tells me the size forage is wrong for the lmb to eat. Your lmb have thinned out the numbers in the size range they need to eat to gain weight. you are short in the right sized cnbg for the lmb to eat and gain weight. I am pretty sure others here might jump in for a better explanation, as I usually leave something out.

Highflyer Brian, I almost never fish for the lmb, fishing only once for them in the last 6 months. If they are going to learn not to bite, then I want them to learn "THAT" when they are large, u know 8 plus I have caught and seen one lmb that was full of eggs this year, and I have also caught one male lmb that his tail was so bloody and reduced in size that I was not sure the lmb would survive the spawn. I have caught a lot of spawning male lmb in my life and this one had the worst tail I have ever seen, no telling how many beds he built. And to answer your question about additional forage stocking, I am not sure at this time, I did talk to Todd about adding some small Tp this fall but now I am not sure. But, I do not want to be where there is a shortage of the right sized forage. And knowing me, I will most likely add the additional TP.

snrub, best wishes on your pond, no matter which way you go. But you need to add some HSB. They are strong fighters and will grow larger in Kansas over E Texas. And man oh man, what a pleasure they are to tie into.