I recently purchased property that has two ponds, one of which already had bass albeit stunted bass and bluegil. I added 600 CNBG along with a few grass carp and 3000 FHM. Recently I have caught a several bluegill that appear to be different breeds. I would appreciate any help to identify the types if possible. To my untrained eye, the first one appears to be a CNBG and the second one I'm not sure about.

No 2 is a CNBG.

CNBG on the first one. Possibly a CNBG x RES cross on the second one with heavy CNBG traits, the exception is the shape of the head and mouth size that look more RES to me. My other thought is that the second one might be just CNBG that had at some point early in life experienced some stunting where the head and eyes grew larger, but the body didn't. If that is the case the it appears to be doing better now.

Thanks, I noticed the copper color on the body of #2. and thought it may be. Any idea why the body shapes are different between the two? The thinner tail section and the more pointed head? Sorry for all the questions, trying to figure out this fresh water fish thing. I have saltwater fished all my life until now.

I see a clear distinct high arching lateral line on the top picture. Is this a HBG feature? I thought I saw that in other threads of HBG where other features of HBG such as white tips to fins and other things are discussed.

The 2nd fish does not have those lateral line markings which would make me wonder if both are truly CNBG or not.

This is a posting from Bruce Condello of a HBG on top with your picture right below it. THe lips on both seem to have a hint of GSF in them.



I certainly am no expert on these matters though

Another Condello shot:

Yes that type lateral line is very common in CNBG. See pic below.


COPPERNOSE BLUEGILL = CNBG

Thanks ewest, so Bruce's pictures above which also have that feature are CNBG mixed with GSF to create HBG?

The high lateral line is just one trait common in CNBG but other strains of bluegill also have a high lateral line. The high line and round body shape is seen often in northern Mississippi River bluegills as well.

Here's a pair http://bigbluegill.com/photo/gills-14


How many other bluegills have you caught from the pond?

Here are a few more examples. To me, it looks like there are two species that have different body characteristics. But I don't know, im learning. Thanks for all the help!

That middle pic looks just like my cnbg. The first one looks a whole lot more like my res (except the ear tab of course). Just my opinion.

The top image looks like an immature male, possibly coppernose. The middle photo looks like a maturing male coppernose bluegill. The bottom image looks like a female native strain of bluegills.

Pure strain coppernose bluegills sourced in their native ranges have bright copper-colored tails even when young. Hatcheries from Arkansas sell coppernose bluegills that don't show color until they have a year or two of age.

Bob that top fish sure looks like it has a long pectoral fin. Is that just the picture or does it look normal to you for that age BG?

of the 3 bottom pictures, 2 of them have a large black spot on the back of the dorsal fin, one does not. Do all CNBG have black spots or only mature ones?

My northern BG have the black spot when they are pretty small. That fish with no spot really looks weird to me but I'm not used to looking at CNBG. The head/mouth on that fish is really "pointy " instead of "rounded" like the other two pics.

CC, my smaller CNBG (5" to 6") have the black spot also.

CC, I doubt that they are CNBG x GSF crosses due to the cold intolerance of the CNBG. I'd put $$ on them being Northern BG x GSF crosses.

To this Yankee who is an honorary Texan (according to George G.) CNBG *usually* have a more round (vertically) shape, *usually* have more vertical bars, but the biggest positive ID for me in mature fish is the gold band on the top of their head right behind the eyes.

Keep in mind that there is a LOT of information in the archives..... http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=22&page=1

Sunfish ID: http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92482#Post92482

All BG/CNBG can have that lateral line configuration. I see that mostly on well conditioned fish (fat/healthy fish). My guess is it is related to fast growth in well fed fish.
Here is info on CNBG vs BG - buy PB mag as it has lots of info like this.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=66840&page=1

From PB mag. - order it now.

THE CUTTING EDGE – SCIENCE REVIEW
By Eric West


Coppernose Bluegill vs. Regular Bluegill – which one for you?


A question we often get on the Pond Boss Forum is should I stock Regular Bluegill Lepomis macrochirus macrochirus or Coppernose Bluegill Lepomis macrochirus mystacalis also previously classified and referred to as Lepomis m. purpurescens . To answer that question we should look at the traits of both and use the one that will work best for the particular goals for the water in question. As we all know traits come from genetics. So what is the difference in the genetics of Coppernose vs. Regular Bluegill? Well it started a long time ago and it took a long time to get there. Here is the basic story. Millions of years ago peninsular Florida was, like it is today, connected to the mainland. Bluegill were present all over the eastern US. Sea level rose and peninsular Florida was cut off by the sea from the mainland creating two separate populations. Bluegill on both the mainland and on the peninsula continued to evolve separately each influenced by local conditions with a divergence time of roughly 2.3 million years. After a few million years of this separate path sea level fell and the two land masses were connected again. However the two bluegill sub-species were now a little different genetically. The rivers were connected and the two subspecies migrated and integrated in a zone along the deep southeast where the two sub-species mixed. If this sounds familiar it should – it’s the same story as the Florida Largemouth Bass and the Northern Largemouth Bass where the divergence time between Northern (M. salmoides) and Florida (M. floridanus) bass is approximately 2.8 million years. If you know one story you should have a fairly good idea of outcome of the other. Surely as a pond owner you have heard the bass story. Florida Bass get bigger under the proper circumstance and do not due well in cold climates. Yes Bluegill have a similar story.

Coppernose Bluegill get bigger under the right circumstance but do not flourish in colder climates. In fact Coppernose are susceptible to poor results and substantial winter kill in northern US regions as are Florida Largemouth Bass. So how do you tell Coppernose and Regular Bluegill apart. Take a look at the pictures included. The Coppernose has a copper band across its head/nose in adult males, has fewer and wider vertical bars, has orangish/red fin margins and tail coloration , 12 anal fin rays and often light/white fin edges most visible when young. The Regular Bluegill has 11 anal fin rays and none of the other traits mentioned.

So how do they compare? Here are some points from a study on the subject titled Performance Comparison between Coppernose and Native Texas Bluegill Populations by John A. Prentice and J. Warren Schlechte in the 2000 Proceedings of the Annual Conference of the Southeastern Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies , Vol. 54 at pgs 196-206 looking at growth (size at age) , survival and catchability.

Coppernose Bluegill were significantly larger than Native Bluegill in all scenarios tested with the largest observed difference being 19.2 mm total length (.756 inch) and 33.5 grams ( 1.18 ounces) over 2 years. At 3 years there was a 16 mm (.63 inch) difference on average and at 4 years 24 mm (.945 inch). With other fish species present there was no difference in angling vulnerability between the types. Spawning activity of the brooders began at the same time (last week of Feb in 1995 and first week of March in 1997) and produced the same size offspring for tagging at the same time each year ( mid-April) in what appeared to be similar numbers. Survival of young of the year Coppernose was substantially greater than for Native Bluegill.

Before you draw to many conclusions note this was in Texas where the weather is close to that of the Coppernose’s native range. That is a critical key to success with Coppernose. While there is an often cited study titled Cold Tolerance in Two Subspecies of Bluegill by , A. J. Sonski , K. E. Kulzer , and J. A. Prentice, in the 1988 Proceedings of the Annual Conference of the Southeastern Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies , Vol. 42 at pgs 120-127 , that states Coppernose and Native Bluegill have similar cold tolerances the key is the test was done on bluegill all from the same area (Texas). Its purpose was to determine if Coppernose could survive the Texas climate. There is substantial observed and anecdotal evidence that Coppernose do not do well in cold climates (roughly north of the north line of Arkansas/Tennessee extended) . In the far northern US Coppernose become subject to high winterkill rates. This would be consistent with their similar relationship to Florida Largemouth Bass which have repeatedly been tested to do poorly and die in cold climates. The study first cited above was also in ponds with no supplemental feeding. Reported scientific evidence is substantial that in ponds the most common cause of reduced growth is a shortage of food. It is not known how much, if any, of the early growth difference between the two sub-species was due to limited forage. The two sub species will integrate (inter-breed) with the offspring exhibiting mixed traits and no apparent negatives but there is very little published data on them.

So the answer to the question should I stock Coppernose Bluegill or Regular (native) Bluegill or both is – it depends. Your location (climate) and your goals are key factors. If you are in the Deep South or the Southwest (including Southern California) and not at high elevation (Appalachian, Rocky or Sierra Mountains) Coppernose should be considered. In short is your temperature profile similar to those areas? To some extent management practices and the existing bluegill population, if any, are also possible factors. Whichever type you choose keep in mind that the most important factor to growing nice bluegill is to be sure they have enough food to eat and not to much competition.

My main pond was stocked with native northern BG from a local Kansas fish farm. Two years later I stocked my adjacent sediment pond with what Dunn's fish farm out of Oklahoma called CNBG. I say 'what they called' because some on this forum havs speculated they may ba some sort of intergrade rather than pure CNBG. They do have a significant different look than my BG with some white fin tipping, more of a dishpan shape, and the copper band above the eyes. They sell them for stocking ponds as far north as the southern third of Kansas, but they mostly push hybrid BG.

Since then I have moved thousands of the offspring and most of the original CNBG to the main pond as well as overflow water from the sediment pond into the main pond allowing YOY CNBG to flow into the main pond.

Over the years I expect them to interbreed. Will be interesting to see what happens during the catching process to see just how many of each type I catch and see if I can tell through the mixed offspring any blended characteristics. I figure over time nature will tend to promote the best survivor or blend of genes for my particular area.

I'm a mutt lover to begin with so keeping pure lines is not important to me.

A couple thoughts. The Ark CNBG (there is an extensive thread)were original CNBG brought to the Ark hatcheries years ago but which have undergone local adaptation through numerous generations. They are still CNBG that have adapted a little. This does not address any particular hatchery/seller who may have crossed them with BG or GSF etc.

Introducing a non native species or subspecies to a new location can give either positive or negative results. It can also improve the existing population or make it much worse through interbreeding. Take the dice and roll them if you like. Readers just remember you can roll 7s or snake-eyes.

I did not think I was rolling the dice very much since the seller of these fish sells lots of them into this area twice a year.

Surely they will not do worse than any of the other ponds that stocked them.

Now taking them much further north? I would agree with your warning.

So far they seem to be doing fine. I'll be sure and let the forum know if they perform poorly or winterkill. I should have pure fish of each, then the intergrades starting this year. So for a few years should have some observational anecdotal evidence.

snrub that is exactly why I addressed this to the "readers". I know you know what is going on. The heads up was to them not you.