Guys,

I would appreciate your thoughts.

Quick History:

1) My 1/4 acre pond was dug in the fall of 2013. The size was dictated by how much fill I needed right away for construction of the new house. Max depth is 8 feet. My plan is to expand the pond by 1/8 next summer at a 10 to 12 depth.
2) Pond has aeration.
3) I started stocking the pond April 2014 with FHM.
4) In June, 75 BG 3 to 6 and 15 CC 6 to 9.
5) September 5 SMB 8 to 10
6) October 30 YP 5 to 7, 100 PS 2 to 3 and 10lbs FHM
7) No vegetation. Cover is brush piles and boulder piles.

Novelty stuff also in there:
1 Drum 12
1 WE 8
1RKB 7
1 LMB 8

My plan for spring is water testing/adjusting, plant some vegetation and stock paper shell crawfish. I will also start feeding the BG and PS pellets.

I would really appreciate you critique and thoughts. Does this mix stand a chance of sustaining or am I at risk of over populating, stunting, etc? Something else I need to do in the spring? I was thinking maybe a few WE in the fall if the YP spawn? A few more LMB? HSB?

Thanks,

Bill D.

I'm no expert and still learning myself but it sounds like you have a nice stocking program. I wouldn't think the YP would likely over produce at those numbers. I had my first YP spawn this past spring and the SMB really hit them hard. I think YP will also eat some of their own offspring. The schools of YP minnows disappeared quickly and I watch the SMB always after them. Best I can tell I had very little recruitment since I only caught 2 or 3 small YP from this year's spawn. I have no experience with Walleye but I would think once they got big enough, along with the LMB, that I would be concerned about my YP disappearing altogether.

You WILL have to harvest some of the bass once they start to spawn. I wouldn't add any more LMB, in fact, if I could catch that one, I'd take it out. Instead of adding LMB I'd add HSB. With only SMB in there your forage fish might stand a chance of producing enough YOY for feed for the SMB and CC. I'd keep a record of the length/weight of any of the SMB that you catch. If their relative weight starts to decrease, then you will need to add more forage fish.

Thanks guys.

I am thinking, right or wrong, the YP I have now (5 to 7 inch in October) will be big enough to avoid predation thru the winter and at least next year. Any chance they will be big enough to spawn next spring? My primary goal is to have a pond with really nice YP so it is key to me to keep this first generation. Maybe harvest a few of the smaller ones next fall?

One of my secondary goals is to have some diversity so "you never know what you might catch." That's why I have those "novelty" 1 of a kind fish. I might drop in 1 BC.

I had some BG spawn last August so I am hoping a lot more are big enough to spawn this spring. I am also hoping some FHM make it thru the winter and manage to spawn in the spring. I estimate there were 6 to 7 thousand of them in there in October along with several hundred 1 inch BG. A lot of "ifs!" I am worried I will not have enough forage for the YP, SMB and others for next summer. If the BG and FHM don't have significant spawns, I think I might have a problem. If that happens, then what? Drop in more FHM or GSH to get thru the summer until the BG and PS come of age?

Any chance any of those 2 to 3 inch PS stocked in October will spawn next summer? I am hoping at least 30 of the original 100 will make it thru the winter without being a snack.

My hope is to someday have a pond with nice YP. I put the SMB in there to help control them and the BG and PS. That 1 LMB was kind of my way of putting in a "clean up hitter." Thinking it might handle a few more of the BG and PS recruits, if any, that are too big for the smallies and YP. My luck will be it will eat the smallies and YP and leave the BG/PS alone! So out he comes, if I ever catch it.

The CC are a put and take. We like them smaller so I will harvest all I can of what's in there this summer and restock 15 more 6 to 8 inchers in the fall.

Any chance the SMB and YP can keep the BG and PS from over populating without other predator help to keep everything kind of balanced? I am also hoping the YP help contol the SMB spawn and the SMB help contol the YP spawn. I of course, will also be doing my part by harvesting the middle size BG and PS. Maybe add WE someday to help control either YP or smallie spawns if they get out of control?

The reason why I say yank the LMB out is that it might spawn with a SMB, and the size of the fish that it can eat. No worries about that with HSB.

With the 8" LMB in there, the 2"-3" PS are the perfect eating size for it.

The general rule of thumb for stocking is to stock fish that are larger than whatever is in the pond can eat unless you are stocking fish strictly for forage. You want to have the stockers stay alive and spawn, and have their YOY eaten rather than expensive stockers. Moreso the LMB than the SMB, but you never know.....

LMB prefer to eat fish 1/4 to 1/3 their body length, even longer if they are fusiform shaped (like YP and GSH).

Remember you cannot tell a fish "Hey, only eat the FHM and GSH, leave the PS and YP alone until they spawn."

Yeah, I thought about the MMB possibility.....better to just take it out.

Wouldn't it be great if you could train them to just eat what you want?!!!

Any answers to my 1001 other questions?

Bill, sounds like you have some of the same concerns I do. I also want some nice YP and BG. I only have SMB as a predator and I suspect the answer is to keep the numbers of SMB, YP, BG, and FHM in balance. I'm sure that will require some harvesting and stocking adjustments from time to time. From what I've seen in my pond so far is BG control might be my biggest challenge. A LOT of newly hatched ones were eaten but several survived and are too big for my SMB to eat at this point. I'm looking for a fish trap large enough to trap some of the 3-4 inch BG if the same thing occurs this year but I'm not sure what kind of trap to use. I may also stock a few more SMB this spring to try and get more of the BG hatch eaten. Of course that will put more pressure on my YP hatch and FHM population, so I may just focus on trapping and removing some small BG if I can find the proper traps.

We really need to work on "Teaching a fish to eat what you want it to eat and leave the rest alone!"

My concern this spring is not enough BG spawn to feed 30 hungry YP and the SMB. My concern the year after that will probably be too dang many BG and PS spawn!

I am still hoping some more of the PBF gurus will jump into this thread with some answers to some of my other questions.

Bill D., one option to expanding your current pond is instead just create a second one.

I don't know your situation and that might not be an option for you (land availability, location etc.). But it is often cheaper to create a new pond than expand an existing one. I've built new and cleaned out and expanded old (granted your expansion would not be nearly as bad as cleaning the muck out of an old pond) and can tell you from first hand experience, creating new is a lot easier.

You might find it as cheap or cheaper to build another 1/4 acre pond adjacent or back to back to your existing pond as it would be to expand the current one by 1/8. Two ponds gives lots more management options than a single pond, although a larger pond often is better aesthetic wise.

Just something to think about if it is an option in your situation.

Thanks Snrub,

The problem I have, or at least think I have, is the current pond is Max 8 feet deep and that is in a very small percentage of the pond. The mjority of the pond is probably 3 to 5. Note I am getting these depth measurements using a weight and slip bobber on a fishing pole. Can the pond I just described sustain fish without more or at least deeper water? I have aeration but still I worry.

I would love to have another pond as well and have the space. My current thought on that is pond 2 maybe 1/10 or 1/20 forage/brood pond. Any thoughts on that?

Cecil,

You are always looking for new projects. Please work on those fish that are trained to eat only what we want!

8' depth would work here further south (10 would be better but 8 will work), but where you are at it could be a problem. Someone that knows your latitude better would have to answer that one.

I have a forage pond that is about 1/20 acre and a sediment pond that is about 1/10th. If you can go to the 1/10th size it is a lot easier to get the depth you will want. At 1/20 using a dozer and trying to get more than 10' depth will be a challenge. A trackhoe could do it easily but you would need soil/clay type to withstand pretty steep sides without sloughing off. Might be a trick compacting it.

If your soil does not have to have compaction it would be not too bad expanding your current pond with an excavator. But if your soil type is prone to leakage without compaction, that pretty well puts you in the need to completely drain before excavation so proper compaction can be done. That fact would make a difference on when you might initially want to stock some fish.

Good luck on whatever you end up doing. Take pictures and let us know about the project.

The pond is a water table pond. I have a very high water table with a huge aquifer. As example, when they first dug this pond they had 2 pumps running, 18000 GPH each. It's a 1/4 acre pond! When they shut them down the pond filled in 24 hours. No matter what I do, the huge volume of water pouring in will be a problem.

Guys! Come on! Don't make me beg! I am old and kneeling hurts my old knees!

Please somebody give me advice if even on this one question.

Any chance the SMB and YP can keep the BG and PS from over populating without other predator help to keep everything kind of balanced? I am also hoping the YP help contol the SMB spawn and the SMB help contol the YP spawn. I of course, will also be doing my part by harvesting the middle size BG and PS. Maybe add WE someday to help control either YP or smallie spawns if they get out of control?


My plan is to try to build and maintain a significant population of 9 to 12+ inch YP which is why I am hoping they will help control the SMB and SF.

I am also hoping Ewest does a followup article to his one on YP in the Sept/Oct issue of PMB to help me get those big perch.

I manage several SMB/YP fisheries and own a few on the farm, and in my experience NO they will not manage BG or PS populations. You will need to harvest liberally and that still may not be enough.

If your goal is a population of harvest sized YP, you are severely limiting your capacity to achieve this goal with presence of PS and BG which will compete directly with the YP and also tie up a huge % of your fishery carrying capacity.

I'm not clear on your goals for the fishery - what is the most important for you?

Thanks for the input TJ. My goal is to simply have a good place to fish. The public waters in this area are crowded and very heavily fished. I am trying to get to diverse fishing with nice sized fish. I am not looking to raise trophy anything. Every fish species in my pond now are table fare for us. I am hoping, as the pond will always be on the smaller size, that I can control populations with angling, a minnow trap and small supplemental stockings if required. I am hoping the SMB and the YP (if I keep a good population of larger ones)will kind of control each other with my help harvesting some of each along the way. The BG, PS and CC will be pellet fed. Do I harvest the middle size BG and PS? The CC will be harvested as close as I can get to 100% every year around August and restocked in the fall. Any advice on how to get to just a good place to fish is greatly appreciated.

Feel free to call me, Bill. Too many thoughts to relate via typing. Happy to share my experiences with you they might help you plan. 402.730.4897

Thanks TJ. That would be awesome! Please shoot me a time for tomorrow or next week that is good for you. I don't want to call you today so I have time to write down questions!

Hey TJ,

Thanks again for taking a big chunk of time this afternoon to offer comments and advice. It is going to be extremely helpful as my project moves forward! You really have my creative thoughts flowing now on that forage pond with waterfalls!!!

Bill D.

Can't wait to see what you end up doing...love the cool water and warm water species twin ponds. If I had a blank canvas that's exactly what I'd do - plus multiple forage ponds surrounding both with gate valves so I could experiment with raising all kinds of forage for eventual release into the ponds.

Gosh dang man. We think a lot alike! I was just sitting here sketching a layout with multiple forage ponds and waterfalls.

Welcome to the addiction...you'll find plenty of enablers here.

I am wondering this. If I stocked some 6 to 8 inch LMB in the spring into the current pond, would I effectively be creating the traditional LMB, SF and CC warm water pond with some bonus fish? Avoiding the stunting of SF and the need to nuke? The new twin cool water pond would be upstream. I could catch what I can catch of the SMB and YP from the current pond and toss them in the new one. This would leave me with the following actions required for spring.

1) Increase depth of current pond per the TJ recommendation
2) Plant vegetation per the Bill Cody recommendation
3) Stock LMB in current pond
4) Build a prototype forage pond/waterfall to the current pond that recirculates water from main pond thru the forage pond and work out the bugs

Thoughts?

Another use for a small forage pond? ....Ok, now nobody laugh. Remember I am a newbie and you can easily bruise my feelings. What if you harvested say some young YP with a minnow trap and put them in a small little 1/20th acre pond and tried to train them to eat pellets. Would that work?

Ah, see TJ your efforts in guiding my efforts are not without fruit. I am already thinking of how to multitask those little forage ponds!

Cages or RAS systems work better I think for pellet training. Higher density of fish = more competition for food. No other food except for pellets like there would be in a pond. Eat pellets or die. Harsh, but your goal is to pellet train the fish, correct?

Yes, you can stock a few LMB into your current pond and "change" it from a cool water to a warm water species fishery. Your plans to pop another 1/3 acre cell upstream dedicated to cool water species fishery allows you to follow the stocking strategy I outlined yesterday for YP, SMB, WE and whatever forage species you choose. Think combo approach BNM, and Red or Spotfin Shiners. My last choice, but still a solid one, would be GSH. In my experience, GSH will compete directly with YP for pellets, and the YP lose in my ponds, and suffer.

You can utilize forage ponds to raise SFS, BNM, et al and design them as we discussed with gate valve which will release your forage directly into the pond, or into a collection tank for netting and stocking later after sorting. Keep a few dozen adults as brood, refill, start project again. This will be a fun project and will keep the hatchery bills down as you are essentially gardening your forage. This will also serve as great science for the forum. I am an obviously advocate for self sufficiency.

Great and thanks to everybody for their comments. I now have a basis for a working plan for the spring. Look for an update next summer, hopefully, a positive update!

Thanks for the input Esshup. The small forage or pellet training pond, depending on what I am trying to use the pond for at the current time, will be a "natural" RAS kind of sort of. Water will be drawn from the main pond, routed thru the small little pond and then returned as a waterfall to the main pond. Think that will work for pellet training if the only fish in the little pond are those to be trained?

Edit: For clarity, my thought is multiple small ponds as satelites around the main pond. One to raise my winter forage BNM,FHM or ..., one to preserve my YP new spawn and pellet train them and one to.....

You can try it, but with the available natural forage in a pond, they won't "have to" eat pellets. I don't know if you can keep up the fish density high enough in a small pond AND keep the water quality high enough to be successful in pellet training the fish.

Ahhh...I was thinking forage as small fish. You are saying there will be enough zooplankton, bugs, tadpoles, etc for them to get by on even in a little natural pool. Correct? Training takes a more restricted environment like a tank/RAS?

Correct. They can also eat insect larvae that live in the pond bottom.

Thanks Esshup! Got it now.

Another question. One big item planned for next summer is increasing the depth and size of the existing pond. My thought is to do this after spawning is done and when the water table is down. Around late July. Is that the correct time or is there a better choice? There will be some turbidity but not that much. Pretty much everything below 4 feet is river rock, sand and boulders. Might hit clay at 12 feet or so. It will also be some of the warmest water at that time so I worry about DO and stress on the fish even though I will have 2 diffusers going.

It's easiest to do when the water is the lowest. Here's what I did with my pond. Drained it down (3" trash pump) until all the fish were in the deep end. Made a dam out of dirt. Dug the shallow end deeper and enlarged it. (had to run the trash pump almost continually due to the groundwater) Broke the dam, all the fish and the water rushed into the now deepest part of the pond, then I cleaned out the part of the pond where the fish were. I also enlarged the pond from roughly 1/3 ac to over an acre.

The water that the fish were staying in during renovations was pretty muddy. I kept an aerator going in there, and put in 40-50 pounds of FHM because they were all going to be crowded into the area for a few months. I think the aeration and the FHM helped them survive without any significant morts. Visibility in the water was less than 6" due to the turbidity. I didn't feed them other than the FHM that I put in. I only lost one 9" BG and 2 smaller ones.

Thank you Sir! I will stick with the plan for July then. Sounds like our ponds are similar in that they are both water table ponds. My expansion plans are not as big as what you did. I am just going from 1/4 to 3/8 or 1/2. I will be telling the pond contractor what the budget is, like I have previously, and he will make it as big as he can with finished shoreline for that amount of money. I really need some 10 to 12 foot water. I am on a giant aquifer so I know from experience I will be back at water table level in 24 hours or so.

Make sure you can use the dirt on-site, if not, trucking the dirt off-site will cost a lot. I was fortunate that I could use the majority of dirt that I generated to re-contour the ground around the house/barn and build up a flat shooting lane in the woods.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=150653#Post150653

Yeah. I was discussing that with TJ the other day. Only have 6 acres to work with but should be able to spread it around. Biggest problem is it will be mostly gravel/sand/stone mix.

First efforts in the spring will be getting appropriate vegetation going in the areas of the current pond not to be expanded/deepened and building the first mini-pond so I can get FHM and BNM stocked.

I need some advice on the size of the mini-ponds. I am thinking around 1000 sq feet + or -. They will need pond liners. What is the most economical shape and size? How deep to be able to sustain minnows over the winter with a small diffuser? There will only be a 100 or so brood stock left in for the winter. I think I probably have enough excess capacity (4.5 cfm 35 psi) with my current compressor to handle the future expanded 1/4 to 3/8 pond and some minis?

Anybody know a good pond builder in N. Illinois? The liners, waterfalls, expansion, etc. have me really nervous. I would like to have a real pro do the work.

If there is a PBF member that is a pro and can help me out, please send me a PM. I am near Rockford.

Thanks!

Get with Scott Schillig, per our conversation. He's Esshup on Forum.

Thanks TJ. I sent Scott a PM.

PM'd back atcha.

Thanks for the inputs Esshup. Between yours and TJ's consul, I have a pretty good idea on how to proceed. The one key thing I still lack is a pond contractor to move the dirt.

Anybody know a good pond builder in N. Illinois?

I forgot to mention, and not sure it matters, but when I drilled the well I had them oversize it to support the pond project as well as the house. So far I have been able to maintain whatever level I choose. I can raise the level 3 to 4 inches in 24 hours with the well. In the summer it takes about a week for it to drop back that same 3 or 4 inches. I have maintained the same level now since August. Winter seems easier and I seldom run the well directly for the pond. I have a geothermal "pump and dump" heat pump in the house so it is putting in 6 to 10 gpm in the pond about 75% of the time each day. The well can supply 35 gpm to the well when I need it and still have plenty of capacity for the rest of our needs.