The pond I am trying to help some friends with is approximately 1 acre. The first pond was constructed then later the previous owner built a second pond and connected the two forming an elongated figure eight. The first part has an aerator. The pond has not been limed or fertilized for at least 10 years. The pond turned over a few years ago. The southern long side of the pond has a mature tree line shading about half of the pond from fall until spring.The pond also has leaves on the bottom from 17 years of the hardwoods shedding. It was a largemouth/bluegill pond and a buddy of the previous owner brought some catfish to add to the mix.

The Problems: Most of the pond in the summer is plagued by southern naiad. The weeds are probably getting plenty of nutrition from the leaves on the bottom. The owners added four grass carp a few years ago and it didn't help. Since they haven't seen the carp since I am assuming that they died. The largest bass that I have seen is at best 18". Almost all of the bass that you catch are around 12". Fishing for bluegill with live redworms you catch a few 7" - 8" fish and a few 4"-6" fish. If you walk along the bank you can see a lot of small bluegills and what I call branch minnows. This appears to be an overcrowded bass pond but these fish aren't easy to catch like in most overcrowded bass ponds.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

What have you been using to fish for the LMB?

1/8 oz. curly tail jig, small floating rapala, 5" plastic shad jerk bait, 6" straight tail plastic worm carolina rig, 1/8 oz. beetle spin

I am a ultralight enthusiast. It really hurt me to have to go to a heavier rod so I could set the hook with the soft plastic baits.

Try these:

http://www.livetargetlures.com/products/freshwater/bluegill-wake.php

http://www.livetargetlures.com/products/freshwater/bluegill-square.php

The smaller of each size. 6 lb test will work fine.

If that doesn't work, catch a 3" Bluegill, and fish it under a bobber to see if you get a bass.

Do me a favor. Next LMB that you catch from there that is 12" or larger, get an accurate length and weight and post it. I can figure out the relative weight and it can be determined from that if the fish are stunting or not.

Thank you for your help!

The bass are healthy. I would go as far to say in general they are on the chunky side.

I generally catch about 2 bass per hour of fishing. This seems like a low number if there are too many.

The next 12"+ fish that I catch I will record length and weight. I have been measuring the fish so the 12" average is close.

I will go over there in a bit and get some real numbers for you.

3 LMB

#1 14" 1 LB 7.2 OZ. Never caught a fish this big in this pond before
#2 12" 14.6 OZ. Average fish
#3 11" 9.2 OZ.

Tried to catch #4 until a bad storm blew in. The pouring rain was blowing in sideways under their large covered gazebo. Needless to say I got soaked. At least I had fun doing it!

1) RW (or WR) 14" LMB that weighs 1# 7.2 oz or 1.45 pounds. 103.5% WR 100% is average, so it's neither stunted or exceptional.
2) 12" LMB 14.6 oz .9125# 114% WR It is getting plenty to eat.
3) 11" 9.2 oz. My RW chart starts at 12", and the fish at 12" should be .8 pound or 12.8 ounces.

It's hard to see a trend from a sample size of 1, but you get the idea. Catch more and report, or take a look at the relative weight chart yourself. http://www.fish.state.pa.us/images/pages/fishin1/weightlength3.pdf

With the small sample size, I hate to make a recommendation on whether the pond is LMB stunted or not. But, from the size of the BG that you say are in there, I'm leaning towards saying that it's in the beginning stage of stunting. The LMB weigh enough to get to 14", maybe an inch or so longer, but then they have to expend more calories catching food than they are getting per mouthful. If the 14" or larger LMB are running under 100 RW, then I'd start by removing 30# of LMB 11" or larger this year per surface acre.

esshup.. I did RW tables for quite a few species and started many of them at smaller size. The citation for source is in the first post.

Thread in Q&A is here: RW tables

and for an 11" LMB, .68lbs.

That is a nice useful table. Had not seen it. Thanks.

I didn't see it either. That's a nice table! Thanks for posting it. I've got it bookmarked now.

I will have to gather more information so you can get a better idea of whats going on. I will suck it up and go catch more bass.

I will also consult with the owners and see which way they want to go. From previous conversations they have kids over quite often and mentioned catching bluegill from the dock.

3 LMB

#1 14" 1.45 lbs 103.5% Average
#2 12" .9125 lbs 114% Getting plenty to eat
#3 11" .575 lbs 85% Stunted??

4 LMB

#4 15" 1.5375 lbs 84% Stunted??
#5 14" 1.1125 lbs 75% Stunted??
#6 13" .9 lbs 77% Stunted??
#7 12" .6375 lbs 70% Stunted??

Maybe with one more trip the picture will become clear?

Generally any fish with a Rw of less than 85 is not getting enough food for good or rapid growth and probably due to there are too many bass eating too many small fish. Advice is usually to remove those with Rw less than 85 so remaining bass have more food available and they get fatter and grow faster. However,,,,,, if the goal is to have kids easily catch fish then having extra hungry bass with low Rw in the pond is a good thing. Maybe this is why it is so easy for you to catch bass for your samples?? Think about it.

From what you are saying and I am seeing the bass don't have enough bluegill to eat. The bluegill that I catch are mostly over 5" and not a large number of them. Simply not enough of the bluegill are surviving to have a healthy bluegill population. If I am fishing for bluegill with a #10 hook and live red worms and I am catching more bass than bluegill there is a shortage of bluegill. If they want a balanced pond X lbs of bass should be removed and 4"? bluegill should be stocked to bring things back into balance. I am not sure of the size of bluegill that the bass won't try to eat. If this is correct how many bluegill need to be added?

Thanks for your help!

It is often referred to here that a LMB will eat BG 1/3 its length. So if you have 14" LMB, you should stock 5" or longer BG. However, I would harvest LMB first, then stock BG if necessary. Otherwise a lot of what you stock might just be expensive LMB food. Heck, harvest enough LMB and you may not have to stock any BG.

Warning: you are talking about changing the dynamics of the pond. Better check with the owners to make sure that really is what's wanted.

Thank you for your reply!

Will check with the owners this weekend. They are all for getting it back in shape. From our talks I don't think that they are interested in trophy bass or bluegill. Just a pond where you can fish from the dock with a cork and catch fish.

That's the kind with the lowest stress.

I am going to guess that its the easiest to maintain also. Continue manual weed removal. Lime the pond this winter. Fertilize the pond in early spring. This is after removing some LMB and adding some adult 5" BG to get the pond back in balance. Both of the owners are very busy so I am guessing this is the option that they will like best. I will ask them this weekend.

FWIW, general rule of thumb. a single LMB needs to eat 10# of BG to add 1# in weight. In a balanced pond, removing around 20# of LMB per surface acre will keep it that way, but the only way to know for sure is to monitor the RW of the LMB you are catching and keep a log.

In ponds, BG are about the only fish that has enough fecundity that can keep up with LMB predation, and that's only if the LMB are managed (i.e. some are removed annually). LMB do the best when eating BG shaped fish that are 1/4 to 1/3 their body length. So, if the larger LMB are lower RW than the smaller ones, food that they grow the best on is lacking. Why? That's up to the pond manager to figure out.

Because LMB eat so much, it's recommended that LMB are removed from a LMB stunted pond rather than adding BG, unless the pond owner has deep enough pockets to afford the correct amount and sized BG. Then you have the issue of carrying capacity to watch if their pockets are deep enough.

Before you lime and fertilize, get the water tested to make sure you need it. Test for alkalinity, and hardness, not just pH. You might have enough nutrients in the pond, and by removing the weeds you will free up those nutrients for a plankton bloom. Having to add more fertilize is much better than adding too much.......

One of the owners is a structural engineer for NASA. They want to fix the pond and spending some money to do it doesn't seem to be an issue. I am assuming the correction process still begins with removing 30 lbs of skinny bass?

That's a good start!!!

For your fishing with red worms and a No 10 hook under a bobber in a balanced general fishing BG-LMB pond, I have found that you should be catching about 10-15 BG for every bass; bare minimum 6BG to 8BG for every LMB any size - using your method. Fewer bluegill than 5 or 8:1 bass usually results in larger average sized BG and smaller bass. This ratio also seems to work pretty good for most panfish : predator communities.

I sat down with the owners this morning and we had a good talk. The verdict is a balanced bass/bluegill pond. I told them about the members here and how helpful everyone here has been. I am going to do my best to catch 30 lbs of bass before the weather gets too cold for me. The bass must have heard the ice water sloshing around in my cooler since I only got one bite (didn't get the hook set) in three hours of fishing. Thats the first time that I have gotten skunked fishing in that pond.

I have managed to catch 2 lbs of skinny bass so far. These blue sky sunny days are not helping. I am learning about the pond however. When the fish in general aren't biting the few fish that are biting are in the shallow water on each end. Need a good front to move in.

I just finished bass fillet sandwiches for lunch. Much better than I remember. White, flaky flesh with no real fishy taste. Thanks to the board for the freezing the fish in a icy brine mix tip!

30 lbs by the end of the year is a challenge for sure. I am going to do my best!

The soil there does need lime. They had it tested for their garden.

Plan in place:

1) Catch a lots of skinny bass.
2) Add lime this winter
3) Fertilize early next Spring
4) Add 200 5"+ bluegill or grow out 200 1" - 3" in baskets until they are large enough to release.

Will this work?

There will be a dilemma. Be aware that in one acre the intense fishing and removal of the most aggressive individuals will result in fewer and fewer being caught as time passes. The remaining bass will be relatively hook smart. Some of those will be rarely if ever caught. You are selectively harvesting the dumbest fish leaving behind the fish less likely to bite. Your angling skills will have to become refined as time passes. Generally the bass angling catch per unit effort (CPUE)will not improve until new individuals are added.

The bass in this pond are already spooky. You are right that the bass are getting educated. If we can get the pond balanced the bass won't eat all of their fry. In a year or two their will be dumb 1 lbers to catch again. You can always go after the larger educated bass with a live 3" bluegill. We are culling the dumb bass that can't find enough to eat now and keeping the the smarter fish that are finding enough.

Bill hit this right on the head!! I have a 1 acre pond with BG, RES, a few HSB and LMB. Most of the time the only way I can catch my larger bass now is with a live BG. They will get smart fast! Unless you starve them to death then maybe you can catch them! LOL... I have pretty much come to the conclusion that I will have fun catching my BG and if I get a bass or HSB every now and then I am happy! To many times I have tried to go to my pond to just bass fish and get very frustrated that I cant catch bass in my own dang pond!!!

I found though that it's not me, it's just them bass getting pretty darn smart on me...

RC

I am afraid that I might reach that point before I catch out the 30 lb removal goal for this year. I have a pond near my home with walking trails etc. that was bird stocked with bluegill. It is the typical Bluegill pond with a 5" - 6" fish being a big one. Plenty of bait for bass fishing.

Around here all ponds have Bluegill whether you want them or not. Like I said they get bird stocked. If you are doing a pond with HSB or LMB Bluegill is the only fish prolific enough to keep up.

Bird stocked?

Eggs transferred from one pond to another on birds feet.

I highly doubt that bird stocking accounts for the presence of the BG. I would lean toward the white bucket scenario currently being discussed in another thread, or hitchhikers from legitimate stocking efforts.

I agree.. Very much doubt bluegill will ever get in my new pond on the backs or feet of ducks, or other birds. Certainly the forage fish I stocked could have had a stray bluegill but I checked them very carefully. I suspect the goldfish also didn't come in the pond in the beak of a kingfisher or that a gracious raccoon carried a fish of one type or another from one pond to another without hurting it.

but on the other hand, if I hadn't seen the neighbor slip in with the white bucket, I would have sworn high and low after I, one day, drag a bullhead out of my pond, and then race to write a post here that this fish must have gotten into my pond via a great blue heron with a case of the stomach flu or a bald eagle flew overhead and while he was switching the fish from one talon to the other he dropped it by mistake.

I do wonder with some of the ponds that have been there 50 years or longer how many unknown human visitors came along and what they thought when 50 or more years ago they threw a worm in and low and behold there were bluegill in there?

So we have a stocked catfish pond fed by an underground spring, well off the road with a gated entrance. The owner is begging people to catch bluegill because they are eating a lot of the food intended for his catfish. Would any sane person bucket stock this pond with bluegill? I know of several of these in case you were wondering. Most people I know that catch bluegill eat them or throw them back. I know that in every case bird stocking is not the case but there is enough evidence to entertain the possibility.

http://www.researchgate.net/post/Is_ther...ody_to_an_other

Sanity is not a prerequisite for bucket stocking....just ask canyoncreek. In addition, high water events account for a great many inadvertent stockings. Plus, how did the catfish get in there? Was each and every fish carefully examined before being turned into the pond, in order to guarantee species?

Or was the bag/bucket of fish just dumped into the water??

I have a hard time believing that a fertilized BG egg could attach itself to a bird's foot, survive the trip to a new pond without drying out, be deposited in a viable state, AND still continue developing and eventually hatch, without the male BG being there to fan water/O2 over the egg?

"The active stocking of juvenile fish by kingfisher species. On several occasions I observed kingfishers dropping fish in isolated water bodies in Southern Brazil. Although this contribution is not very scientific, it may be worth of reflecting…."

You underestimate mother nature.

Not at all. Kingfishers dropping a live specimen is worlds different from an egg sticking to a duck's foot.

That was your definition of bird stocking in an earlier post, was it not?

You are correct. Its some crazy guy randomly bucket stocking ponds all over the country.

End of discussion!

He says that he observed...... That's not evidence. And, I'm not one to underestimate Mama Nature.

Read Sparkplugs 3rd paragraph. And that's not even 1/2 of the requirements for viability.

About 10 years ago, this question came up on this Forum. So I tried it. Since I couldn't get my hands on a wild duck during BG spawning season, I bought a plain white duck at the local flea market. I euthanized(killed) it and cut the feet off. I had a pretty active BG nesting area. So I waded out and waited for the water to clear. That took awhile. Then I carefully stuck the duck foot into and around the eggs. Nada! I tried it on another nest with the same results. Then I soaked the foot for awhile and tried again with the same results. The gelatonous eggs didn't adhere. Actually, when I carefully submerged the foot, the eggs kinda moved away from the intrusion.

Now, I realize that my attempt is not scientific experimenting and/or even meets proper sampling criteria. It would have to be done thousands of times and each attempt logged. I am not aware of any scientific study of the situation. And, at that time I looked.

I'm not going to say that it can't be done. But I see no way that it can be cause of all or even a tiny fraction of the bird/fish eggs reports. I will say that I'll bet a dollar to a doughnut that no person can make it stick, transport it get a successful hatch and scientifically record it. Until that happens, I'll just say BS.

Back on topic. There is a hill on the north side of the pond that runs 2/3rds the length of the pond. Its about 75 feet away from the pond. Yesterday I walked the hill and saw no bass feeding in the shallows on the northern edge of the pond. I fished for awhile and didn't get a bite. This morning I did the same with the same result. I went next door and talked to a friend for a few hours then came back. This time walking the hill I saw one bass actively feeding on the surface and another cruising. I fished for awhile and caught one and didn't get the hook set on the second one. I am at a whopping 10% of my goal. lol

See post below

FF, this is PondBoss. The premier fish/ponds related forum on the net. It's not about taking sides, it's about relaying factual information as best we can. I'm sorry you feel slighted, but it isn't personal I assure you. Facts are preferred, but I've always found theories to be welcome here, so long as they are expressed as such.

Making room for opposing theories, and being tolerant of such, is par for the course also.

And hijacking is a part of forum life here. Oftentimes, much can be learned from a thread wandering off topic.

Stick around, share, and learn. That's what we're all here for.

I confess I am the crazy random bucket stocking guy. Whatever you do DO NOT give me your ponds address.

Seriously I have learned a lot already and bring a different perspective on fish nutrition to the table.

I simply can't understand why every body of water in Alabama save one that I have fished has Bluegill. The one body is a drainage lake and I didn't see any fish walking the bank and didn't get a bite using live red worms. I guess I underestimate mans desire to bucket stock???

I think it happens 2 ways. Bucket stocking certainly occurs. There is just something lacking when we see a hole of water without fish. There are also rain events with fish escaping downstream or from creeks overflowing their banks.

We've seen pictures of tornados raining fish that were sucked up out of a body of water but I'll bet that those fish were in no shape to live.

An awful lot of hatcheries aren't careful segregating their fish. Gambusia minnows are in an awful lot of South East Texas ponds that were supposedly never stocked with them. In one case that I'm personally aware of, the owner talked to the fish seller who admitted that his forage ponds were mixed with both fatheads and and a "few" gambusia. We all know that we should carefully eyeball every fish that we stock but mistakes occur.

Green sunfish show up in ponds that are supposedly stocked with only bluegills. That has to be a hatchery mistake due to carelessness. Or possibly us buying both HBG and BG or CNBG and winding up with unintended consequences.

In my case I stocked my latest pond with BG and fatheads. I waited a year to add 3 inch LMB. Then a couple of months later I was seeing 12 to 13 inch bass. Ain't no way and I know who helped me but he denied it.

Can fish be moved by birds - yes. The question is not if but how frequently and how likely that a fish species entered a body of water by this means. I personally saw a GBH, that I surprised, fly off with a catfish, but I cannot tell you if it was in its mouth or speared. Could the bird have dropped it accidentally in another body of water? Sure it could, but how often would that happen. If someone could reliably document a bird purposefully stocking another body of water, I think you could publish your findings in the most premier scientific journals on the planet (Science or Nature). It would seem to me to have very weak evolutionary pressure to evolve such a behavior. I think you could get a Nature or National geogrphic film crew to stake out your location if they believe this behavior is occurring.

I think a lot of people underestimate the capability of a high water event for stocking fish. That "ditch" that runs into one end of the pond becomes a highway when a 100 yr rain occurs.

I'm also in agreement with Dave on the hatchery issue. Mix ups and unintended hitchhikers are fairly common occurrences. The careless, traveling fishtruck scenario appears to account for the majority of those. Buy your fish from a reputable source, and hand sort as you stock.

For proof that bucket stocking occurs, we need look no further than canyoncreek's thread. He himself stated that had he not discovered the interloper, he would've been inclined to go with the bird delivery explanation when he caught a bullhead that he never stocked.
Unless we spend 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year standing in front of our ponds, how do we know that bucket stocking hasn't happened? We may think our ponds are secure, but in reality we probably don't know that for a fact.

I have no doubt that a bird can drop a fish while in flight. But in the scenario we are discussing here, ( ponds full of smaller bluegills), it needs to happen at least twice. Once with a male, and another time with a female BG. And both fish need to survive, and reproduce.

And it takes very little water for a fish to successfully travel from one body of water to another. All a fish needs is the smallest of trickles.

I think that I might be able to help at least some with the Aquarium fish bucket stockers. Our fish food made solely for fish in the home aquarium has been on the market for a little over 3 months. It has become very popular at this point. I am not saying this to brag and I am not getting rich (I have received $150 for my efforts because I was in a financial bind). I say all of that to say it gives us a platform to promote responsible fish keeping. If you are moving or don't want to keep this species anymore take them back to the store where you bought them.

I agree with you FF. The trouble starts when folks want an aquarium with "native" fish. They most likely secure these from local waters rather than purchase them from a pet store....hence the bullhead in canyoncreek's story.

Time comes when they don't want the fish anymore......just release them back into the closest BOW. I would imagine that the thought process goes something along the lines of "these fish came from the creek down the road, so it shouldn't hurt to put them into the neighbor's pond"

Yeah. Right.

I would never deny almost anything is possible, but "bird stocking" is about the MOST improbable!!! IF anyone actually observed a Kingfisher dropping a "live" species, the chances of the fish survival is virtually nill as the fish would be highly stressed (and probably suffocated and dried) from a "flight", and almost unquestionably injured from the original capture. It would die in hours from fungus, if not within minutes from the other stressors.

The MOST likely cause (absent human stocking), are simple rain events. Fish fry can swim for miles in under 1/4" of water. Any body of water that does not get runoff is still "connected" to other waters during a rain event. Put together 2 or more frequent events, a puddle here and there during drier periods, and fish fry could migrate some vast distances!

I have kept spotted bass and bluegill in an aquarium. When it was obvious that they were not well suited for the 45 gallon tank I had them in I put them back in the lake where they came from. I simply can't understand the mindset of someone who is so lazy that they just dump them in the nearest body of water.


Do you know one of the biggest complaints we get about our AQUARIUM fish food? You have to break of a piece of food and crumble it up by hand. People are LAZY!!!

I have to agree that rain events are the more likely scenario. Two words that I have learned to never use concerning fish are never and always.

Today I caught two more skinny LMB. One on a dead BG and the other on a live red worm. I also caught a skinny 3 - 4 lb CC on a live minnow my friend had leftover from his fishing trip. I was surprised that after 10 years without feed any CC were left. He brought back at least 20 5+" BG to help get things back in balance. At this point we have harvested around 9 lbs of LMB. His fish are lawn mower trained. He swears that we can catch another 5 lbs by simply running his riding lawn mower along the pond edge blowing the grass into the pond. It sends the bass into a feeding frenzy. We will be trying that trick soon. I need to catch more 3"ish BG for the front coming in next week to try and put a big dent in whats left to be caught. Its time to make a few BG traps and put them to use.

Try an artificial grasshopper lure on the surface after the mower goes by.

Good idea! He says popping bugs work. From what he says pretty much anything that floats works. I will see if I can find a floating grasshopper. Might as well match what they are looking for. Taking into consideration the condition (skinny) of the bass I am surprised they aren't easier to catch. He says that catching bass has never been easy.

Catching bass on a dead BG. Catching CC on a live minnow. Its been an odd day!

Maybe one of your local stores has one or both of these:
http://www.lurenet.com/rebel-bighopper-fishing-lure

http://www.lurenet.com/rebel-crickhopper-fishing-lure

I've seen the smaller one at the local Wal-Mart.........

If you are a fly guy, grab a piece of chartreuse foam - cut to shape and tie on some spinner bait skirt legs for a Q & D Hopper (Quick and Dirty).
Works every time - have fun.
George