I have introduced a small number of adult-size chain pickerel into an existing small pond in SC. Basic reason is primarily to have a more diverse fishery (they aggressively eat artificials and stay fairly active in the winter in SC). Are there any problems with having the chains in a small pond, do they negatively compete with LMB, or out-reproduce them in a small environment? This is a pond about 1 1/2 - 2 acres...not very deep (max depth is 8-9 ft)...has a pretty healthy weed base of various lily pads surrounding entire shallow edge. It is not a new pond, and has an established population of LMB, BG, RES, and a few channel cats. The pickerel (only 7 or 8 adult size fish) were introduced during the past 2 winters. They apparently spawned in the spring because we are seeing quite a few little 'snakes' zipping around chasing minnows and have caught a couple on small lures. Does anyone foresee a problem with these being in a small pond? Would their numbers need to be monitored like you would the LMB, and remove some each year?
Yes, they will compete with bass and should be managed in a similar way. Often they are difficult to maintain in a pond with bass as they're all eaten. Your pond with the vegetation may be better habitat. I'd remove all caught under 12". Closely monitor your bass' relative weights to make sure enough forage is available. I enjoy CP as well, and think they have their place in ponds depending one's goals.
I wish that I would have access to your extras CP when I build my next pond, but you are too far away.
I am new to this forum. Is there anybody from the Maryland area who could answer a few questions.
Umm Clay why do we have to be from Maryland? Is the question you have specific to that area?
Just wondering.
RC
Clay, I'm not in Maryland but just across the Potomac River in Virginia...
As a follow-up to this, the chain pickerel experiment was a success. Put about 7 adult size CP in the pond...now it seems there are about 17,000 in there. We are having to remove them now to keep their numbers in check. Apparently they reproduce well in shallow, weedy small ponds. I think the bass are having a hard time controlling their numbers due to the vegetation in the pond. They are fun to catch though and add some nice diversity when the bass are not cooperative.
I'm pleased to hear from someone who's trying CP. Your motive seems to be one of the best – put a predator in the pond that will provide action when the others (LMB in your case) won't. And diversity is always nice when it comes to a pond.
From all I've read, LMB will eventually eliminate CP if conditions are right for both of them. But maybe that's not necessarily true. I would think, and hope, that you can control the ratio to suite your wishes through fishing. At any rate, I hope you will continue to keep us posted on how this goes over time.
redneckfly - Maybe you could work out a deal with Rainman to pickup some of your excess chain pickerel and distribute them to others here on the forum wanting some chain pickerel? Chain pickerel could be beneficial bonus predators in ponds with good weed control so the pickerel don't reproduce well and don't become overabundant.
Keep us updated about your chain pickerel. Any pictures of the offspring?
I think a CP x musky hybrid would be awesome for southern pond owners that are little too warm for the NP x Musky hybrids
I put some redfin in my little pond couple years ago and they never caught on. now there still are a few jackfish in it. Fun fight and they will get some pretty good air. maybe the bass eat the little redfins. but man those redfins are some good eating.
Something you often see when you read an article about pickerel is that the smaller the species of pike the poorer the table fare. I've never eaten any of the pickerel, but I'm guessing this is something that was written ages ago and has, like many other things that aren't true, been repeated over and over again by people who really don't know what they're talking about. But everyone to his or her own tastes. Some people like to eat trout and others don't.
Are chain pickerel permitted in central Indiana?
RAH, I didn't see them on an Approved Aquatic Species list, but call Randy Lang with IDNR, and they'd likely be approved
RAH,
Check with your DNR, or Dept. of Conservation, or whatever it's called in IN. It seems that most States have either a list of approved species or a list of prohibited species. If IN has a list of approved species and CP aren't on it, you might look into what would have to be done to try to get them approved. If you talk to someone with the State, you may have to press them a bit to be sure you're getting the right answer. I talked to several people in WI and got several different answers. If you talk to someone, be sure they know which fish you're talking about. They may assume you're talking about northern pike or some other fish. That happened to me. First the official said "Sure they're legal." Then is said there's no such fish as a chain pickerel, then he looked them up and said they're not native in WI so they can't be raised, or stocked, or sold there. He said he'd been in his position for 20 yr and had never heard of chain pickerel.
Just thought that someone here might know the answer. I think that I will focus on setting up my next pond to favor walleye reproduction. Those should be much easier to source anyway.
Walleye are much better table fare than pickerel who have Y bones between the meat flakes.
I grew up catching CP and would like to have this fish in one of my ponds, but if it is not compatible with the local environment, then walleye will have to do.
CP are more fun for fishing, however I would eat walleye with a smile on my face!
I prefer fish over meat, but I do not fish for eating.
WE are tops for eating, but rather mediocre when it comes to fighting. If I had my druthers, I druther have everything.
We have CP here in Arkansas and they are fun to catch given they are of decent size. Don't know if I would want tons of little ones swimming around in my pond though. Rule of thumb has always been only 1 top predator in a small pond of 1 to 1.5 acres. So if LMB is your top predator already and now you throw in CP you better have one heck of a forage base or it could get way off in about 2 to 3 years.
Heck I have a hard enough time keeping up with my small bass that need to be taking out let alone a bunch of small CP too! If they were like HSB and didn't spawn in a pond that would be great!!!
RC
My interest in CP is as a top predator in my next (3rd) pond. Have a LMB pond and a SMB pond already going.
RAH,
CP and SMB are supposed to be compatible in the same BOW. Both prefer cool, clear water, but one prefers shallow, weedy water, and the other prefers deeper water with a sandy or rocky bottom, or so I've read. I have no personal pond experience with either. But if you have 3 ponds and can dedicate one to each of the 3 species, that sounds like the way to go.
RC51,
I lived within a few miles of the 11 pt River, which flows out of MO into AR, until I moved last year. I always thought it looked like a good SMB stream, but didn't learn it is a CP fishery until after I moved. For various reaons, I never fished it.
just trying to keep things as simple as possible. It ain't easy in today's world!
Bobby,
Grass pickerel cross with NP, and that cross might be more tolerant of warmer water. Also, the artesian flow in FL is probably on the cool side, so a pond fed by that water might handle the cross well.
Turtle,
I have a couple of smaller lakes I fish that have them in it I guess from the Game and Fish. I would like to talk with one of them and ask them what / why did they put them in there for what reason?? What are they trying to accomplish. I would like to know what they think there best use is for them.... We have caught most of ours on zoom super flukes and top water frogs.
RC
Bobby,
Grass pickerel cross with NP, and that cross might be more tolerant of warmer water. Also, the artesian flow in FL is probably on the cool side, so a pond fed by that water might handle the cross well.
you think the NP are more warm tolerant than Musky? It seems the musky range is a bit more southerly than NP. (TN and KY)
I have no Idea really how warm tolerant they are. I wonder if they might be more like SMB and can handle the temps but just need O2. I know of a lake in Lexington KY that is stocked with WE. It has aeration and they do pretty darn good.
I don't know if there's much difference in the tollerance of NP and muskies for warm water, but the red fin and grass pickerel are found farther south than CP, and NP and grass/red fin cross naturally in NE. Also, I haven't heard of a muskie/pickerel cross. Maybe a pickerel could cross with a female tiger. I wonder if anyone's tried that?
I see chain pickerels around local ponds a lot around me. Big ones too.
If I hade the room etc, I would try a cross for sure.
CP cross naturally with NP in the northeastern part of the country, so maybe the cross would produce good fishing farther south.
I looked online a little at them those CPxNP hybrids look really cool. Some seemed to get pretty good size. I wonder how they would do down here with a longer growing season. you know if they are sterile? Seems like a lot of them in that lake system. They might be good for Midwestern at least if not southern pond that musky x NP hybrids might not do well. The chain pickerel genes could offer more heat tolerance.
I just got an answer to a question I posed to a MO Fisheries Programs Specialist some time back. A MO website said: "Missouri's numberless farm ponds are bulging with fish. You can...throw out a worm for almost any species." I asked, why not pickerel? And his reply is:
"Pickerels prefer rivers and streams and will not thrive for long in ponds. The habitat and food sources in ponds are not what pickerels need, and they are outcompeted (and preyed upon) by largemouth bass."
I guess he was telling me why they don't survive in ponds rather than why MO won't allow them to be stocked, but I think there's ample evidence that they do survive in ponds.
Turtlemtn,
I would try to engage in friendly dialogue, always giving him plenty of respect for his position and expertise. I would explore more your options. You can agree with his position that perhaps it won't be so advisable for everyone but you would like to test it out in your own private pond and are willing to take the losses on your own account if it doesn't work out. Try to explore if it is not advised or illegal. It sounds like they are purposing straying away from giving you a yes/no on the legal issue by scaring you off based on practicality reasonings.
I have the same situation with HSB in Michigan. It is a grey area. I was first told it can't be done because they won't do well, or they aren't suited for small ponds, or they won't reproduce so they aren't a good idea. Obviously folks here on the PB forums think otherwise, and in Michigan not reproducing is fine with me as that is one of my goals, control predator numbers. The HSB are not on the excluded "invasive species" list and thus I started some dialogue with the DNR.
We had several very civil email exchanges. I then gently tested the situation to determine if this was a legal issue or just an advisory against it. When I tested where the boundaries were, the DNR officer brought my case up the chain to his superiors. They decided that since my pond has no inflow or outflow and no access to other water that they really had no jurisdiction over my pond. It was like fingernails on the chalkboard for them to admit that, but that was the verdict. They still strongly suggested against it. They really wanted me to use flathead catfish or channel cats and bluegill instead but admitted that they could not prevent me from putting them in my pond.
They still felt I was crazy to do so, but I was hopeful that I could get a listening ear by explaining how HSB would serve my goals very uniquely and how I'm hoping to stay well within the reach of what is legal. I gently asked if it could be allowable to do something a bit out of the norm for them and it was clear that this makes them uncomfortable. In fact the knowledge and experience they brought to bear on this is about a whole generation behind what is being actively done/discussed here on this forum.
After the Flint, MI water crisis some shaking up might take place in the Michigan DEQ/DNR, local EPA office etc.
So, see if you can be a test case (providing your pond doesn't have a situation where overflow could directly put them in a river or nearby lake where it would be a potential problem) Offer to have them come and check up on your progress from time to time? Tell him to take his fishing rod.
Canyoncreek - Good comment and approach for Turtlemtn - If you decide to add some HSB to your pond take pictures of them as they progress to show DNR how well HSB will perform in your area. DNR can always learn new management concepts. State agencies are extremely slow to change philosophy.
Chain pickerel will survive fine in ponds. In fact without adequate LMB predation and the right habitat (spawning structure) the CP could become overpopulated. Even in marginal pond conditions CP will likely recruit a few fish either periodically or annually.
DNR can always learn new management concepts.
yep , kinda like when they told me there is no law stopping me from putting a flounder in a freshwater pond, but if I did it would die because it was a saltwater fish.
I've talked to this fisheries specialist before, by phone and by email, and we've discussed pickerel, among other things. He's been very pleasant and helpful. It's just that when I saw this statement on their website extolling the great variety of fish, “almost any species,” that can be caught in MO ponds, it got my goat a bit. He answered as if we were discussing natural conditions, but the website referred to farm ponds, i.e., stocked ponds.
I've already learned that pickerel are not on MO's list of approved species. The list was prepared in the '50s, and it's a waste of time trying to get anything added to it, or so I've been told. But I thought I might send him some “testimonials” by people who have or have had pickerel in their ponds and are pleased with the fish. I would show that under the right conditions they do thrive in ponds and explain that it's in the context of private stocking that I contacted him. The problem would be, as canyoncreek said, to appear congenial and not argumentative.
Maybe if pickerel become more popular in parts of the county where they are legal, pressure will be put on MO to add them to their list and they will find a way to do that.
Sounds like you have a good dialogue going with the guy. Have you just come out and told him you want to try stocking them and asked what you need to do to apply for a permit?
If your pond is isolated with no streams entering nor exiting ask if it is possible to get a special stocking permit as a test pond so the benefit can be documented for MO information.
Hear this! After doing a little homework on the fishes that occur I neighboring states of MO, I found that CP occur in OK, MS, AK, and extreme western KY. An even more very interesting find is that according to Wm Pflieger (Fishes of Missouri) Chain pickerel do definitely occur in Missouri in the "south east region of the Ozarks from Eleven Point River east to the St Francis. In the Current Rv it occurs to the exclusion of grass pickerel". Even the MO Dept of Conservation list the chain pickerel as present in MO. Armed with this information, I do not understand how the MO Fisheries Program specialist can tell you that you cannot bring in CP to your pond. You could even go to areas of MO and catch your own stockers! Or a bird could even be said to transport them as eggs into your pond.
See the 2nd fish from the bottom of this link.
http://mdc.mo.gov/discover-nature/field-guide/types/fishes?page=1http://mdc.mo.gov/discover-nature/field-guide/chain-pickerel
Two problems: First, they're not legal in MO, and second, the only place I've found that sells them is an aquarium supply in FL that wants about $20 each. The first is the more serious problem. My initial question was about whether I could stock them. They can't be raised, sold, or stocked in this State. But they are native in southern MO.
How do "they" prevent birds from stocking them into your pond??? How will they be able to prove that you stocked them or that you even have them I your pond?
If I really wanted them in my pond I would go fishing in my state's waters. The fish could follow me home as does a stray dog or cat. What about your neighbor putting them into your pond when you even told everyone to not trespass.
I'm with Bill. That way if they even went so far as to do a genetic test, they would be found to match fish that are native to Mo.
I lived between the Current and 11 Pt Rivers before moving here last year, but I didn't know either river had CP. For various reason, I never fished either of them. For the past 9 yr, I've only fished my own ponds.
The issue for me is as much about bureaucracies that don't serve the public as it is about the fish. I'd like to see pickerel readily available for anyone who wants to stock them. The reason I've been given isn't a biological one, it's a bureaucratic one. The list was made over half a century ago and it can't be changed. That's not the way things ought to work.
Turtlemtn...Call MDC and get "permission" for Chain Pickerel if you want some. If you look at the "approved species list" for Missouri, neither Hybrid Striped bass or Hybrid Bluegill are on it, but are legal to stock. Being Native, the fish will be allowed, since also not "endangered".
Does anyone in the whole US raise chain pickerel? Zetts in Drifting PA used to sell CP but they are not a current species. Evidently Zetts was able to spawn them in ponds and sell fingerlings. Reproducing chain pickerel in a pond could be a problem to too many predators that are not growing and not easy to remove.
Does anyone in the whole US raise chain pickerel? Zetts in Drifting PA used to sell CP but they are not a current species. Evidently Zetts was able to spawn them in ponds and sell fingerlings.
I don't know of any commercial growers but there is still Redneckfly if he can be persuaded to part with some. Would there be an issue transporting them across state lines?
As a follow-up to this, the chain pickerel experiment was a success. Put about 7 adult size CP in the pond...now it seems there are about 17,000 in there. We are having to remove them now to keep their numbers in check. Apparently they reproduce well in shallow, weedy small ponds. I think the bass are having a hard time controlling their numbers due to the vegetation in the pond. They are fun to catch though and add some nice diversity when the bass are not cooperative.
Thanks for the encouragement. I plan to pursue this further.
I talked to NE about raising CP. It's not impossible, but it would be quite a hassle. More hassle than I would want to get into. The source to the fish would have to be certified, 60 fish would be killed for examination and the rest of the lot would have to be kept in isolation (for a month, I think, but he might have said longer) . I think it would be possible to catch them in the wild in NE (but not in any other State) and build up you stock until you had enough to part with 60 for testing, but I didn't pursue that. I guess it would be the same procedure for any fish you're bringing in from out of State. He said he had gone through a lot of red tape with people trying to raise sauger and saugeye, and they failed.
I've found that talking to one person in the department might not give you the correct answer. Ask to be sent copies of the regulations regarding that.
I've been told incorrect things about fish and permits by more than one person in more than one state........
And these people are in the fish and game or DNR office and supposedly in the department that handles fish.......
I talked to a different person with NE fisheries today. We chatted for a while, and he sounded a little irritated at times. But as we talked more, I think the discussion grew more congenial. I believe he thought at first I was interested in planting CP in NE streams. He was skeptical that CP would succeed in NE. He said he had attempted to establish grass pickerel in a newly created wetland and failed. He also said the grass pickerel that are native to NE aren't doing well. He attributed the problem to a changing environment.
Rainman,
I got this response from MDC:
"The "approved aquatic species list" includes all subspecies, varieties, and hybrids."
I just got an answer to a question I posed to a MO Fisheries Programs Specialist some time back. A MO website said: "Missouri's numberless farm ponds are bulging with fish. You can...throw out a worm for almost any species." I asked, why not pickerel? And his reply is:
"Pickerels prefer rivers and streams and will not thrive for long in ponds. The habitat and food sources in ponds are not what pickerels need, and they are outcompeted (and preyed upon) by largemouth bass."
I guess he was telling me why they don't survive in ponds rather than why MO won't allow them to be stocked, but I think there's ample evidence that they do survive in ponds.
Yep. I fish a 100 acre pond (that's a lake to me) regularly and it has had chain pickerel in it for decades, so, that expert is wrong.
BTW, there are two lakes around here that used to have CP in them, lots of them and I haven't caught one in many a year. I note that both of these lakes have had Florida strain LMB stocked into them.
If I had a pond, I would not put CP in it because I am interested in LMB. I don't know anyone who likes CP around here; they are considered a nuisance fish. As for me, I do sometimes get a kick out of them because they do jump. But they have really nasty teeth. In a pond that kids or squeamish women would fish, a CP would not be good due to the teeth.
CP are usually pretty easy to catch. Anything that flashes, especially a spinnerbait will get them but I have caught them on many lures.
Anyone eat CP? I have not, but I am going to try one. I have been told that only the last third of the fish is edible due to a bazillion bones in the front. Also, to remove the red streak in the meat. However, here is a link to a video on how to filet chain pickerel and this kind of opened my eyes to a new way of thinking about them. He doesn't mention anything about a red streak. But he does show how to get fillets and he does brag about the good eating! (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjcelLOjh1E)
Anyone know what the mysterious red streak is? Is it down the centerline? I cut that out of catfish sometimes because my girlfriend doesn't like the taste. I guess it's a fatty streak. I talked with a man recently who said his kinfolks used to catch CP and take that red streak out and then use it as bait to catch more, lol.
Nice website you have here.
~~~
Bill
The red streak is a special type of muscle that allows high lactic acid build up to give the fish who do a lot of swimming more endurance before it gets tired. It is very common in marine fish such as tuna who do lots of swimming. The lactic acid is gradually replaced when the fish rests.
The red streak is a special type of muscle that allows high lactic acid build up to give the fish who do a lot of swimming more endurance before it gets tired. It is very common in marine fish such as tuna who do lots of swimming. The lactic acid is gradually replaced when the fish rests.
Bill, is that the same reddish streak that is found in larger Channel Cats?
livemusic,
That guy makes filleting a pike look easy. I wish I could do that. I'm not handy with my hands, but I really like eating NP. A CP that size would be fun catching and good eating if the texture and flavor are comparable to NP.
There are numerous ponds in Virginia with reproducing CP. Most are acidic, tannin stained and heavily vegetated. The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania stocks them into new and renovated lakes. They seem to have boom bust spawning cycles. Most anglers in my area consider them a nuisance species.
This brings back memories of my days fishing for Pirana, or Caribe as they are known in South America. They are an absolute blast to fish, braided steel leaders and all. But are essentially inedible because they seem like as much bone as meat. We found an indian lady who made soup w them, so we gave them all to her.
In southeast Georgia when we catch jackfish aka cp I do not keep them. world record was caught in my county in suwanahoochee creek which runs into the Suwanee river near the end of the okefenokee. in small creek we do eat redfin pike. those are very good fried. just gut cut the head off couple of slits in the back of those little things and you got a very good tasting fish stick. the bones are so small the grease will dissolve the bones. It is a great tasting little fish for sure. not sure if they are only in deep south or not though.