The details:

.4 acre pond 9' max depth well irrigation. Feed AM 500/600 3x daily. 150 Male [6-9"] CSBG, 94 F [6-12"] YP

Forage base thousands FHM, Crayfish, PK Shrimp

Few observations this Spring and Summer. Good news - have witnessed zero reproduction in YP or BG, and I set traps weekly baited with AM and surely would have captured something by now. Glad I got the gender ID correct.

The bad - fish have never hit pellets very aggressively. I actually shut down feeding times from 6x to 3x daily - very little feeding AM or PM.

I figured fish were making a living on the YOY Crays, PKs, and abundant FHM and were maybe satiated and not interested in expending energy to fight FHM schools for pellets.

Sampled the pond today with a new digital scale with tray to determine WR values.

All fish caught appeared to be underperforming. All BG bellies were concave - just don't look like they are thriving. YP were slender and light. Here are the results and I'm using WR chart from bigbluegill.com and Willis/Lusk article from PB:

BG:
9" - 10.75 oz - 116 WR
9" - 10.65 oz - 115 WR
8.75" - 11.1 oz - 126 WR
9" - 10.6 oz - 115 WR
8.5" - 8.65 oz - 110 WR
8.75" - 9.5 oz - 107 WR
8.5" - 9.55 oz - 123 WR

YP:
9.5" - 5.55 oz - 77 WR
9.5" - 7.1 oz - 99 WR

I'm perplexed the BG aren't faring better, and the concave stomachs were especially troubling. I was expecting to sample very stout BG considering the amount of natural forage and pellets.

The YP results were equally worrisome - with tens of thousands of FHM, yoy crays and grass shrimp I had much higher hopes.

All fish stocked were assumed pellet trained, maybe 10% were questionable. I'm open to any feedback/guidance on how to improve the condition of the fish. My goals are to achieve a WR average of 130-150 per fish. I figured if I provided enough forage, fish would respond with explosive growth. I'm missing something here...so far it's not much of a "trophy" fishery.

I know the numbers on the BG aren't what you were hoping for, but they appear extremely consistent, and they are all above 100%. On the surface, the math looks pretty good.

I don't recall....how long have these fish been in place, and what size were they when you stocked them, TJ?

BG stocked Autumn 13 and Spring 14 6-9". Most were in the 6-7" range. All YP stocked Spring 14 6-8" and a couple 12s.

Did you open up any of the fish and see what they were eating? Just curious as to what they preferred. (forage or pellets)

I'm grasping here, but if they went off pellets in favor of forage, wouldn't the net gain to the fish be far less, as per Optimal Forage Theory?

How many weeds are in the pond? Could they be expending calories by chasing but not catching forage?

BG in my pond don't hit pellets. Maybe it's the LMB, maybe it's because they have natural forage? The YP DO hit the pellets and I haven't caught any in a few months due to water temps. Maybe they aren't as pellet trained as you assumed?

I'm curious about the same quentions that Tony asked.

No fish were culled, but I considered it.

Weeds are relegated to shallow margins - American Pondweed about 3-4' from shore. Chara exists, but doesn't seem too dense, and water has only about 30" visibility so I don't think it's growing deep.

All fish were kept in cages for at least 6 months and pellet fed. Only stocked fish which were obviously eating pellets [decent body condition] and Bruce and I went through the BG 3x before selecting top fish we had confidence in [and were verified Males].

FHM are swimming in open water pecking pellets in dense schools. They are easy picking totally oblivious to anything but the pellets. For a long time I figured the YP and BG made a living on the FHM and thought their body condition would reflect that. Not so much.

.4 acre average depth of 7' - 243 fish shouldn't serve as a carrying capacity issue. I'm stumped, and hoping for some corrective strategy.

This might be a "naïve" look at it, but could it be that the ones you are catching are the hungriest, thus they are the ones that are the worst WR? Others might be in there that are huge but just to full on natural forage to bother going after your bait? The ones you are catching are not stunted so they still wouldn't want artificial feed but will go after your bait?

Other types of fish surveys available to verify?

Optimal Forage Theory

I keep learning. I knew this occurred naturally, but I never knew what it was called.

TJ, It shouldn't be diet, since you've got a diverse forage base, so I'll throw 2 things out there.

Water? I'm sure you've got good water, so that shouldn't be an issue.

Competition? I know BG and LMB are different, but I've noticed a change in feeding habits since I started feeding GSF to my LMB. The biggest LMB have started to only feed 2 or 3 times a week, instead of daily. I'm wondering if the availability of a consistent easy meal changes their natural habits? The smaller LMB, continue to show up daily.

My CNBG, which I feed on a schedule similar to yours, exhibit some of the same traits as the LMB. The midsized CNBG will eat any sized pellet, and gorge until they're satiated. The larger CNBG will pick through the pellets and only eat what they want. I'm thinking about reducing the number of throws, and increasing the throw times. Maybe competition for food will cause them to eat more.

Just throwing darts at this.

TJ - as always very thought provoking stuff. How does the WR of these guys compare to the same fish out of your larger pond? Water quality, same feed (although different abundance), different predator-prey balance, different vegetation - all variables. The other thing I found interesting was that you are seeing concave bellies but they are heavier than weight-length numbers that you got from BG.com and the PB article. I pulled the estimator from PA Fish Commission and this seems to portray your fish as being heavier too. Weight-Length Estimator
Did you verify scale accuracy?

Maybe they are lonely and despondent, lacking opposite sex interaction. I know I would be if I were a fish in that pond.

Fish, that's good insight. I was catching BG on a mini crankbait for a while, and thought I'd be better served using a pellet imitation for just the reason you offer. I know only pellet trained fish will take a pellet imitation, and those are the fish I really want to sample. It was too windy for pellet fishing, so I went with crawler nub on a #8 barbless baitholder and little shot about 30" up. I think in order to eliminate fish that aren't on pellets I need to fish exclusively with stubby steves or my homemade pellet flies.

Totally different parameters from big pond fish - single sex, zero predators, abundant forage and pellets, etc.

The concave stomachs have me stumped as not one BG I sampled was below 100 WR, but they didn't look right, still. Frankly a 125 fish I would envision as much thicker and robust.

Yes, brand new digital gram/ounce scale and was tested.

Makes some sense here I agree, but since pellet program has have never abated except during winter it's hard for me to believe they are chasing shrimp or FHM over a floating defenseless cheeseburger.

Don't forget the YP...the WRs are so low considering the variety and density of forage - I was very surprised at their poor performance.

If the goal truly is gigantic fish, maybe slower but steady is the key? Seems those fish that feed on pellets to engorgement every day do balloon out early but die younger. It may take longer with natural feed but you may grow some real monsters in the end... My all male BG never take pellets. Like your pond, the natural forage is too plentiful. Only my HSB, albino CC and forage fish(FHM, BNM, shiners, etc) take the pellets. Even my all male GSF refuse pellets.

Sometimes its about the instinct that they just need to chase.... Look at a dog, if it runs they case, when the prey stops they aren't nearly as interested. Add in the fact that when others are interested in chasing the same thing, competition factor kicks in and it becomes more intensified.

I'd be curious to see what you catch with FHM as bait.

At this point I agree with fish n Chips, I think your sampling was biased especially for the YP. Fattest fish are not biting.

I have been giving this very subject a lot of thought over the summer. I think there may be growth potential available by exploiting the competition angle, somehow. I've watched schools of BG cruise right by pellets available on the surface, just to run with the school to where the next handful hits the water. Like they're afraid they will miss out on something if they don't. I suppose that could be a survival mechanism, safety in numbers, but I can't say for sure.

I also believe that feeding fewer pellets at a time, spread out over a few minutes, might promote better feeding activity for the same reason. From my observations, it almost seems that perceived quantity of food available (less), drives the fish to feed more aggressively.

Thanks for the feedback, T. Have you performed any WR measurements lately on those BG? Does anyone else out there see the concave belly to which I'm referring?

Well Fish and Cody - that's definitely a positive spin to put on this scenario and I hope it's part of the issue.

I will fish with only pellets soon and see if my results vary. Will report again soon.

My primary reason for posting this report was to share my experiences with the low WR of the BG and YP. This surprised me considering they were pellet trained and have abundant natural forage and pellets available to them. It suggests there exist additional variables influencing health/growth rate of fish than just forage availability and water quality. Thank you for working with me to try and determine these other factors.

I still find it hard to believe a female YP stocked in a pond for 3 months with 10,000's of FHM would register 77 WR. I would have predicted that fish to be pushing 125+.

I've witnessed this with multiple fish species at my ponds, Tony, and have to agree your assessment warrants merit. These are the granular details that are so much fun to discover, but rather maddening while trying to achieve goals, too! I love working through them with you guys though...but can't anything be simple??

TJ, I've been creating this pond for my girls to fish so no fishing, all observation so far. I may do a little sampling in the fall to see how they're progressing and report back then.

I would trap some minnows and poke them with some holes and drop them back in so they swim on their sides. We do this just to see the perch come up to feed now that they have turned off the feeder and really going to the minnows. We do this through the ice in the winter like a bird feeder. Same hole same great fishing spot all winter.

Our perch didn't really leave the feeder till after the spring spawn and the average fish was over 10"s. Last year when they were smaller they stayed on the feed longer.

The perch that we have been catching and eating from out pond had only a snail or two and some minnow back bones in them and of course, rolls of fat. Only one had pellets. I expect after the fist cold rain we get here, till mid October, that they will go back on the feeder for the winter.

Cheers Don.

What about sampling using a fish trap instead of fishing? Switch up the sampling method a little?

Also, I was only 95% joking with the "lonely and despondent" reply. Have any studies been done on the growth rate of single sex fish compared to mixed sex? Could this change the fish drive to eat levels? I have no clue. Just asking.

Going to be in your great state of Nebraska next week at "Husker Harvest Days". Big 3 day farm show.

TJ - Can you seine the pond?

+1 on the seine idea.

In the Topias, I can only get the fish to bite if I turn off the feeder for a few days. But ifI throw a hand full of feed, get out of their way!!

No, too steep and deep and have PVC structure which would prohibit seining. Going to have to try pellet flies I reckon and see what fish I sample. Those should all be 100% verified pellet trained fish - see if their body conditions are improved.

Good questions, but I know Cecil has great success with single sex YP and BG fisheries...trying to follow his example.

You should ping us when you're in NE and we can try to connect if free.

Good point on Cecil's success.

Just trying to "think outside the box". Problem is sometimes my thinking is not only outside the box, it is outside the entire warehouse where the box is located.

Be staying in Aurora on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday nights at Ken's motel. Will send you a PM with my cell phone number and if there is a chance we can make time to meet up that would be great.

TJ - FYI I usually have poor success catching the large YP during periods of water temps above 75F, even worse is water temps above 80F. Best time to sample them is in spring after spawn; pre 75F, mid-late fall, or during ice fishing.

I just read two studies the other day after your post wondering if single sex could adversely affect growth rates - one was tilapia and one was bluegill. Both had better growth rates for single sex. I'll try to find them and post links.

I observed something interesting last night and tonight while feeding that made me think of this. If we throw a bunch of food on the pond the food floats around and they eat and then they stop. If I throw a much smaller amount out, wait for them to eat, then throw another small amount, and repeat - they eat much more food for much longer time period. Again, just noticed this activity and two nights observation doesn't equate to a study.

Ditto! I have around 300 over 13 + inch perch in my trophy pond and you would think by the poor feeding response they are all dead. But I went through this last summer and they were all there come spring as fishing was fast and furious and they all looked healthy. I have a hunch the big ones sulk on the bottom in warm temps and may be feeding on snails if anything. There are no forage fish in the pond.

I took Bob O and his granddaughter down to the pond a couple of weeks ago (see other thread) and we only caught a couple smaller ones that I put in this year.

Think of Pavlov's Dogs, the fish are conditioned to eat when pellets hit the surface and forget about the ones that are aleady floating

Bill, why do I foul hook your trophy YP in those temps, plus catch your WE when you say I can't?

Rainman - you are an out-of-the-box angler.

Translation....I suck at fishing! lol

Took a couple hours late afternoon with low winds and fished with pellet imitation to help ensure catches of pellet trained fish. Here are the results:

BG 1: 9.25" 11.1 oz WR 106 [Note concave belly]



BG 2: 9" 10.95 oz WR 114



BG 3: 8.75" 11.7 oz WR 146


BG 4: 8.5" 9.35 oz WR 146

BG 5: 9" 11.1 oz WR 115 [Note concave belly area]


BG 1 and BG 5 both exhibit the concave or skinny belly to which I've referred in past posts, but BG 5 still came out at WR 115.

The two fish at 146 were chunks - it was immediately apparent they were thriving when I handled them, but the other supposedly pellet trained fish still ranged 106-115 which continues to perplex me.

Not sure I learned much new here, but did reinforce previous sampling data which indicates most fish [90%] are hovering at the 107-120 mark. It was promising to sample the couple chunks today - definitely making a living on pellets and available forage.

I also caught a YP at 9.5" and 7.1 oz which is just under WR 100 - not any improvement on the YP thus far but will keep sampling throughout Fall. It still amazes me how YP can remain underweight despite being surrounded by tens of thousands of FHM.

I like that BG2 at 29". Now that's a monster BG!

I was happy with the two chunks - hopefully they'll keep growing and demonstrate to their brothers how to feast on pellets more often.

Any idea on the age of these BG? Keep in mind a pure BG in cooler waters can live to be 12-15 years old. Slow and steady may be the key to that elusive 2 or even 3 pound BG.

I would do reverse thinking and fish with FHM and see if the RW is better in those that are caught.

YP are age 2 so should have 4-5+ more years of growth.

I estimate most BG are age 2-3. Again, should have a few more years there, too.

Goals are 10" 1-1.5# BG. When I have cages full of feed trained Males that approach 7" I will likely start culling under performing BG and restocking with better fish this Fall.

I'm eager to increase YP catch rates this Fall - a fat male FHM/jig crawled on the bottom should be the ticket.

I wonder if some of your male BG have spent time bedding this summer waiting for a non-existent female BG to show up, this might explain the concave bellies and lower WRs.

I'm not ruling anything out, Steve - that's a plausible theory. The main thing I've learned is there exist many factors which contribute/determine fish growth/success. Water quality, DO levels, and varied and abundant preferred forage base is apparently not enough to override some other [currently unknown] factors. It's those details I'm trying to identify so I can address and hopefully resolve with your help.

It may simply be lower quality individual fish or maybe some didn't like the jump from cage environment to the pond. I know Aaron Matos relentlessly culled his BG with Condello in order to maintain a fishery with the most thriving specimens. We've all seen his remarkable BG - they are truly amazing. Could be I'm just early in the trophy fishery process here and need to begin an aggressive culling/supplemental stocking program with fish I discern [with Condellos help] show the best potential. Likely will be an ongoing process but at least it's enjoyable!

At any rate, it's been educational. Formerly I figured all one needed to do is take care of the water and provide plenty of forage and they would all more or less succeed at the same pace. I was wrong!

I tossed that possibility out there simply because I watched the 4 male RES in my aquarium really curtail eating as the days got longer this spring and the urge to spawn got closer. My lone female in the aquarium actually picked up the pace as she became gravid.

I seined a male RES in full spawning colors off a bed at the end of June whose belly was very concave. I am pretty sure that he had spent great amount of time in the last month defending his bed rather than foraging for food. IMO the urge to reproduce can at times override the urge to eat. In my pond there are very few potential spawning areas and only a few of my RES actually get to spawn, or they have to take turns on a small number of beds. I had very low water levels at ice out this year and could only find eight old RES beds from last year in the entire pond.

Thanks for the feedback Steve - good to hear someone else witness the pinch belly syndrome. I like your spawning bed defense theory because it provides a ray of hope. I have noticed feedings are somewhat more assertive following our cool down the past several days - but still no appearance of YP feeding which perplexes me.

TJ, I got time to fish for a little while yesterday, and I had the same pinched bellies on my 6-8" CNBG. They were all very healthy, but the belly looked just like yours. The big bulls seemed to have left the feeder, so maybe this is a seasonal thing.

TJ,

Other than the "pinched bellies" the fish look robust to me for the most part. Could it be a genetic thing?

I'm worrying a little myself with my trophy pond. Big perch have yet to come up for feed after shutting down for summer. I do have 3 mort perch I need to remove. The water is very dark and most of the sago has died off. My diffusers have been running 24/7 and I don't believe I have oxygen issues as the bluegill that are feeding don't seem bothered.

TJ, you've got inferior genetics in your pond. Seine them all out and send them to Indiana.

Now come on I didn't meant anything negative about it, but even with the best genetics sometimes a negative trait shows up. Sometimes if the gene pool is too small negative traits start showing up.


That's why I have crossed my bluegills twice now with other genes although those wonderful Condello traits still show up.

I think it's very unlikely it's genetic thing but find it odd the fish are robust but have the sunken bellies at the same.

Cecil, what I posted had nothing to do with anything you posted. Honest!

I know.

That appears to be a copper nose bream.

The Copper nosed bream will spawn once per month where I am.
What you are looking at COULD BE the results of , after spawning.

Often times both male and females will appear run down or have concave bellies after a spawn.

If you have coppernose bream then you probably have plenty of food in your pond. The Copper nose bream WILL cannibalize. I have seen it with my own two eyes. They will swallow anything they can get in their mouth.

My pond, which I stocked only about 5 months ago with copper nose bream is teaming with infants. I am 100% positive that these infants are not the same fish I stocked.

The fish I stocked were a max size of 2.5 inches for the larger ones. Most were an inch to 1.5 inches.


I was mad as hell when I found this casualty. I wanted to put gasoline on that bird and light him on fire. Regurgitated the fish as I ran out to scare him away.

This Bream measured 6.5 inches and is healthy as can be. And beautiful.

Jason,

Coppernose woudn't survive the winters in Nebraska. I'm pretty sure Teehjaeh57's bluegills originally came from Bruce Condello in Nebraska.

TJ?

The birds are just doing what they evolved to do thousands of years a go. There are nonlethal ways to keep them out of your pond.

Looks like a GBH stab wound to me.

Fishery is all Male CSBG - no reproduction, and yes, Condello genetics.

Note: Evening feedings are becoming more assertive - not sure if the YP are finally getting into the action or if the lower temps are encouraging a feeding run. Either way, feedings over the past two weeks are encouraging. I'm feeding 1 second throws at 7:30 AM; 7:10 PM; 7:30 PM; and 7:50 PM. Fish last night were feeding into the twilight hours past 8. Will sample again in Mid October - hope to see some signs of improvement in body condition.

Good for you teehjaeh! I sill have yet to see more than a handful of yellow perch come up for feed and I should have close to 300 in the .62 acre pond (all females no forage fish).

I moved 91 8 to 12 inch perch from a cage to my refilled hatchery pond (the hatched fish are 4 to 5 inches now inside) and have had only two or three come up for pellets. They too had gone off feed in the cage. I had them in the cage because I couldn't reliably sex them, and will leave them in this pond over the winter so I can in the spring.

I'm open to suggestions on keeping the birds out. non-lethally. The soul has no control over what body it was put into.

Ideas would be appreciated.

TJ here is a bit from an upcoming Cutting Edge article

. In this study with young Bluegill six practical diets were formulated, with varying levels of protein (32–44%) and lipid (6–12%). Final weight during the test period, feed intake, and feed efficiency values increased with increasing levels of dietary protein. Increasing the lipid content by 4% in the 32%-protein diet (to 10% lipid) or the 44%-protein diet (to 12% lipid) had little influence on the performance of the fish. Although the fish grew well on all diets tested, they grew best when offered a diet containing 44% protein and 8% lipid. Other studies show that because fish growth often is limited by food availability, supplemental feeding is a logical tool to improve the condition of fish in small impoundments as the energy cost for bluegill to feed on pellets is small relative to the high caloric intake, which can be 4-5 times greater than those fed natural foods (Schalles and Wissing 1976).

That's encouraging...they have AM 500-600 multiple times daily and plenty of FHM, Grass Shrimp and invertebrates to snack on throughout the day.

Interesting to note - some BG are trying to make a living by hovering beneath pellets and at least trying to pick off swarming FHM. They swirl 2-3" below the pellets. I don't know if this is supplemental to pellets, or they've decided they prefer FHM to pellets. Regardless, it's interesting to see how their feeding habits have evolved to include other forage items.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=332985&page=1

You sure it is FHM and not grass shrimp they are picking off? I notice grass shrimp love to eat my pellets. Because they can be hard to see in the water, sometimes it appears the pellets is swimming around on its own. Then I look closer and can see a grass shrimp or two pushing it around as they feed on it. Then I see a swirl and bye bye goes the shrimp...

T - that could certainly be the case - there's a strong population of shrimp. I will investigate on the next sunny day to see if any shrimp are hitting pellets and report back. I'd be happy to learn that's the case...anything to keep these BG fed. It's interesting how they are evolving to take advantage of different forage opportunities. Not all fish feed in this way, seems only a few have figured it out or utilize the method.