So I have owned my pond just over a year now. The pond was dug 8 years ago. It is about 3/4 acre and 18ft deep by the dam. I am wondering what to do about my LMB. Last year all LMB I caught was in the 12in-14in range. A few smaller ones around 8in or so. I figured I would at least catch a few bigger ones?? The blue gill are all around 3-5in and seem to be pretty plenty-full and I started feeding them last year(along with the Catfish).

How can I make my LMB thrive?

Should I add FHM?

Should I remove the stupid CC's and Flatheads??!!(last year i was pulling out 24in-30in flatheads and CC. They are making lent pretty delicious

Also my pond has a few Crappies? I was told to remove all of those due to the size of my pond. Even though I have caught a few of those that were put in the fryer.

I don't know if this matters or not put the pond did have cattails all around it and I had them dug out with an excavator. Should I add some cover in there too??

Any help would be awesome!!

Thanks!
John

Sounds like you have the classic over populated stunted LMB pond...

First thing I would do is remove every single bass you catch. 3/4 acre, you should be able to make a dent in the population. I'd look to removed 50-75 pounds of bass. Start recording weight and length of each bass and all fish caught for that matter. Calculate relative weights on the bass and others and track progress.

I would not waste my money on adding any FHM.

I would also remove every catfish caught of any species and continue removing all crappies caught.

As you are doing this, the addition of some shallow cover would help as well. Good luck!

How many bass are you catching? Weight of them? Shouldn't there be some bigger bg if there are numerous small bass? I agree to remove all the crappie and cc and undersized lmb. Ever think about some HSB? Fast growth and a blast to catch?

I'm new to pond management so am not an expert. But I think I have an illustration that might help give a clear picture of what was explained by CJBS2003 very well as a "classic over populated stunted LMB pond.."

Imagine your pond instead as a "pig pen". Or any other type of animal pen you might wish to imagine.

Lets say that "pen" comfortably "holds" a hundred 40# piglets. they have room to move around, feed, and prosper. But what happens as they grow and become larger? The pen that comfortabley held 100 40# pigs might only hold 50 80# pigs or 15 240# pigs. For any "fixed" size of pen, it will only comfortably hold a given amount of pounds of hogs. Your pond is a fixed size pen. It will only hold a certain amount of pounds of fish.

Your pond can only hold so many pounds of fish. It can hold lots of small fish, but a much smaller number of large fish. It only has so much space and so many resources to sustain the fish population.

So if you want bigger bass, you need to remove many of the small/medium ones to give more room for growth. Getting rid of the big catfish also gives more room. It sounds counter intuitive. Seems like we should just be able to pour the feed out there and get the big bass. But from my non-expert perspective it all started making sense once I understood that there was only so much room for fish. It is your job to remove the undesirable size/species and provide the proper forage for the ones you want to grow.

As CJBS2003 points out, remove a bunch of the bass and catfish and the remaining LMB will have room and resources to grow.

MOST ponds will support about 100 pounds of predators per acre. Everything is a predator of something else.

So take out all Bass? Or just the ones under 10in?

Last year during the spring I would catch about 3-4 bass every trip around the pond. They were hitting pretty heavy but they slowed down in the summer. They were around the 12in size. Every once and a while I would get a fat 14.

So I didn't think were any catfish when we got the pond and I added 20CC and 10 Albino CC. Well behold one day while feeding the new ones about 10 big CC came up

Then one night out fishing with my nephews we caught 3 Flatheads in 30m! They were anywhere from 27in to 30in... When will the channel cats and the flatheads start biting. I want to start clearing them out asap.

thanks for the info so far!

There is a lot to learn.
Firstly, remember the more time you spend fishing in a small pond (<5 ac) the more you condition or 'educate' your fish to become hook shy, hook smart and less likely to bite. This applies especially to the larger fish. Then it takes more & more angling finesse and education to catch the wise old fish. Numerous discussions have occurred here about this topic for further reading try searching the site.

Secondly are you sure some of the catfish are truly flatheads? Those when large will eat 14"-16" bass. IMO get all CC out unless you love to eat CC. CC are pellet hogs and night time predators serving a similar niche as the owl. IMO each CC takes the place of one bass. I prefer bass to CC.

If the LMbass are just 14" after around 6 yrs old then your pond has serious food shortages for the adult bass if your goal is LMB 4 - 6 lbs. Fingerling bass in IN that are well fed should be minimum 14" at the end of the 2nd yr in the pond. IMO you will never get LMB 4 -6 lbs with the current fishery balance. I think it will take a concerted and wise management effort to correct the current problem due to having too many hook smart fish and too many wrong species present. The path to recovery will be slow, similar to how long it took to get where the fishery now stands. Removing and probably adding fish is one probable path. Several paths and choices can be taken based on your goals for the pond and its fishery. Maybe you should reconsider your goals for the pond based on its current conditions? Consider and re-examine if your goals are realistic.

Do you use pond dye? That by itself will reduce the amount of fish a pond will grow by about 50% because it suppresses the bottom of the food chain - primary productivity.

Most of your answers and options will be listed here from our extensive information thread about LMB. Other members can provide additional advice.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=255372#Post255372

Neither. Just take out all the LMB that are under 90% relative weight.

"How do I figure that out" will be the next question (I assume).

To answer that, you will need a digital scale, a ruler, a calculator and a copy of this chart.

Take the LMB that you catch. Get it's weight, remember it and measure it's length. Find the fish that is that long on the chart. See that weight that is associated with that length fish? Take your fish weight, and divide that by the weight that is on the chart. What is the number? Under .9 and remove it. Over .9 toss it back in.

Thanks for the info guys. That's a lot to take in all at once but I will do the chart for LMB removal and just remove all Cats.. Should I remove the bluegill that maybe stunted too or are they just getting eaten and good source of food? I will keep you all updated!! It's a little chilly and snowy out today so won't be doing anything today. If I threw out some lines for cats , think they would bite in the weather?

I'm over this weather and ready for fishing weather!!

If the BG are stunted, there's either too much cover in the pond for them to hide in away from the predators, or it's not a LMB stunted pond.

Like we said earlier, without knowing the length/weight of the LMB, we're only guessing that they are stunted. They might be fat pigs, but just not long! That's why the RW (sometimes shown as WR) chart is a much needed tool.

+1 what esshup says. When it comes to LMB it's all about the RW then go from there.

RC

How do you adjust the RW on LMB when the females are full of eggs?

Well that would be the one exception to the rule I guess. Taking RW's should not be done with LMB that have eggs in them that would be a false reading IMO.

RC

Good question,

I always take my RW's in mid summer to fall that way I know there isn't any issue with eggs or lack of feeding. Winter could also be a bad time to take RW's as the fish don't eat near as much. So I stay away from those times.

All RW have to be adjusted for time of year. That is very important. LMB can loose a third of their weight during the spawn.

So I do add dye to the pond in the summer.. How bad is that for the pond, I wouldn't of ever added it to the pond if I knew it was hurting fish growth Does it hurt more if I added more than was recommended.....

Sorry newbie here

It depends on one's goal... If aesthetics are the most important factor in owning your pond, then the addition of a dye may be worth the detriment to fish production. As is the case with nearly all the food chains in the world, the food chain in your pond starts with the energy of the sun.

Phytoplankton are agents for "primary production," the creation of organic compounds from carbon dioxide dissolved in the water, a process that sustains the aquatic food web. Phytoplankton obtain energy through the process of photosynthesis and photosynthesis requires sunlight to occur. When you add dye to your pond, you reduce the amount of sunlight reaching the water and thus, reduce the productivity of your pond in producing phytoplankton. So by adding more dye than recommended, you have reduced that much more sunlight from penetrating the water.

Phytoplankton are also crucially dependent on minerals. These are primarily macronutrients such as nitrate and phosphate. This is why liming and fertilization leads to more phytoplankton as well. Submerged aquatic vegetation can out compete phytoplankton for these resources and this is often why ponds with a large amount of submerged aquatic vegetation are quite clear.

If one wants their pond to be naturally its most productive, they should not dye it, work to keep submerged aquatic vegetation to a minimum, generally in the 20-30% range depending on certain management goals and ensure their pond is not overly acidic with good amounts of dissolved minerals.

This should probably be put in a new thread but why do people never put lily pads in ponds around here? We had some in our fish pond at home and the fish seemed to love them. If I put them in containers would they not take over and maybe help the fish with cover a little bit?

That depends on what types of lily pads you are talking about. The wrong types can grow quickly and overtake a pond, making it hard to fish in. But it all depends on your goals. John Monroe doesn't fish in his ponds, and he's happy with them having a LOT of vegetation in them - more than anyone would prefer that fished in their ponds. IIRC he has Spatterdock and White Fragrant Lillies in his pond.

Fragrant White Lilies and Spatterdock are the two most common wild varities that grow in the Northern part of the US. They grow and spread fast, and can can grow in water depths (depending on clarity) of 4-5 feet. Once established, they can spread 5' or more per year, and are difficult to remove. They just don't only spread by rhizomes, they also spread by seeds. So, keeping them in containers won't keep them contained for long.

You can plant hardy lilies, which don't spread fast at all. If you wanted lilies, that's what I would do. Search on here for Hardy lilies, they have been discussed a number of times before.

In even just marginal conditions the wild white water lily and spatterdock will easily grow into 7 to 9 ft of water depth. As they spread they tend to cause the water to become clearer, (competing against phytoplankton) and thus light penetrates deeper and they grow deeper, sometimes as deep as 10ft. If one wants slow, shallow growing water lilies choose the types that are labeled dwarf or miniature usu 1-3ft deep. Next larger sized group is called small spread. The medium and large spread types of hardy hybrid varieties grow the deepest and spread the quickest some up to 6'-8' deep; it all depends on variety of hybrid lily. Hybrid lilies generally do not produce fertile seeds, although there are exceptions. If you want to know all about details of water lilies for ponds get the two back issues of Pond Boss magazine and read my two articles about water lilies for ponds.

Mar-Apr 2010 WATER LILIES IN PONDS? Part 1. Cody discuses features of hybrid water lilies and four types of look alike species. Control methods discussed.

Jul-Aug 2010 HYBRID WATER LILIES. Part 2. Cody discusses the types of hybrid water lilies, size groups, leaf and depth spread, planting, dividing and transplanting methods.

There is also a fair amount of discussion topics in the PBoss Forum Archives about water lilies and similar looking plants.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=110943#Post110943

Thanks guys! Just thinking about something that may provide cover for the fish and fun to fish around. Also something that would look nice but not take over. Looks like a have a few options here!

Thanks again!

Catfish removal started last night, and releasing to the frying pan tonight! Set out a milk jug with a hot dog on it last night. While my wife and I were having dinner and the milk jug was buzzing around the pond like a little boat! 20in CC

So how do you guys fillet your catfish's? Some of those bigger and fatter ones the fillets get huge!

I don't know what variety of wild water lily grows in ponds around here but I was amazed when I cleaned out our old pond. It had been covered about 2/3 with them and had been there for many years.

I could not believe the size of the root, or tuber, or whatever you call the part that grows under ground in the bottom of the pond. Some of the roots were on the order of 4" in diameter and I don't know how many feet long. I know lots of them came up as I was dozing the muck out of the bottom of the pond.

After seeing the roots, I understand why it would be near impossible to control them mechanically (other than draining and cleaning out the pond). I would think a systemic herbicide would be the only thing that could take out such established roots once they had gotten established and any size to them.

Like you would fillet a regular fish, except if you don't have an electric fillet knife don't cut thru the ribs, cut to the ribs, then follow the ribs out and cut thru the skin. Once the fillet is off the fish, (if the table/board is long enough I won't cut thru the skin at the tail - I'll flop the fillet over and use the body of the fish as a handle) cut from the tail to the head to remove the skin. Then remove all the dark meat that you see.

If I cut thru the skin at the tail I'll use a fork to hold the skin at the tail to start the cut.

Maybe a silly question.... I was walking around the pond today and bass and BG were in large schools. There were a couple very nice size Bass. The weird thing was they were very close to the bank. They were staring at the bank looking like they were waiting for something to fall in. Is it normal for fish to swim close to the top? In one corner of the pond where there are a few weeds I counted 6 LMB and about 12 BG swimming around. The bass range from 10-14in. Then i went to another side of the pond and saw the same thing. Is it just because the water is heating up??

Sorry newbie here but very curious! I'm anxious to get my pond into a working foodchain!

Thanks!
John

That's what I would think. They may be remembering conditioning from last year if last year they felt footsteps and followed you around the pond waiting for something to jump in. Grasshoppers, frogs, etc.

This time of year, when it has been cold but then you get a spell of sunny warmer days the shallows heat up fairly quickly. So it is not uncommon for the fish to get pretty shallow to be in that warmer water. And as esshup said, fish will often maintain their condition and most likely relate you to food opportunities.

What is your water temp. Spawn has started in some places. When warming starts so does metabolism and the urge to eat. Warm water is the place to do that at this time of year.

Yeah right now mucky shallow bottoms in the south around 5 or 6 feet deep can be gold minds for LMB!!

RC

Well this makes me feel better.. I think I found what they are eating, there are hundreds of little frogs around the pond. The bass are eating them up as fast as they fall in.

A few years back I had a group of 4 female LMB cruise around the pond all summer long 4-10' from shore looking for a meal. Often one would charge towards the shore for an unaware BG, if she missed & the BGs tried to escape to deeper water; there were 3 other big mouths waiting.

Okay so after reading items on the forum and online from other sites I'm beginning to think the flatheads have got to be my problem.

How do I catch them and not the other channel cats. I have only caught two and they were within 15m from each other. They were both monsters though.

Im wondering whoever stocked the pond how many flatheads they put in and if they spawn...

It sounds like flatheads can eat a pond clean!

They can. Try larger live bait, too large for the CC to eat. But, if the CC you are catching are over 3#, then they are eating live fish too. They are cheap to restock in 10"-12" sizes.

IMO It doesn't matter what type of CC it is they all get big and they will eat anything. Specially flatheads! There like fresh water sharks. If they are hungry they'll eat it!

Being here in Arkansas a LOT of folks here like CC and they ask me all the time do I have any in my pond? When I say nope there all like why not?? Why not so I don't have to go through what your going through now.

What you put in your pond is SOOOOOOOOOO critical 1 wrong move and it can mess up everything you tring to do for a long, long time!!

RC

I really want to get them out now. I have milk jugs up around the pond and pulling out at least two cats a night, when i bait the lines. I guess I need to catch maybe some 4 in bluegill and rig them up to try to get some flatheads.What if the blue gill dies on the hook, do you still think they will eat it or will I need to keep them fresh?

I haven't even seen the 10 albino CC's I stocked when I bought the place... Why didn't I read the forum before I went crazy with Cats haha !!

Flatheads prefer live bait. Guys that I know that fish in the river here for catfish like using GSF for bait, they say they live longer on the hook.

I've caught a number of CC on a 3/4" to 1" piece of hotdog on a hook. Even after it's been in the pond for a few days on the hook.

Hotdogs have been a guaranteed CC caught for past couple days. My wife got mad because I used all the good hotdogs??? Is that possible!! Ha

BH are my favorite bait for FHC - they stay alive much longer than other baits I've used. Think juglines and circle hooks - size hooks according to the size of BH you will use for bait. A 8-10" BH struggling against a jug is hard to resist for FHC.

Here is a pic of my nephews and I with a couple Cats. Can you confirm that this is a FHC. I had never seen one before and don't know the difference between one of these and a bullhead?

http://s1028.photobucket.com/user/johnstier/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps9dd8ad11.jpg.html

Looks like a flathead on left (your right hand) and a Channel on right..

I love catfish nuggets and there are not better tasting catfish IMHO than Flatheads...We are just now the last couple of years seeing them in our local river..They have been moving up stream for the last several years.. I still throw them all back unless they are deep hooked..

How do you make the nuggets? Just cut up the fillets? And what bait do you use?

Yep, Just fillet and chunk up in small enough pieces they fry up quick...

As for bait, I use live minnows/small bass/bluegill and crawfish usually...We run a lot of bank poles in the spring when the river is cleaner and temps are warming... As I have mentioned here before about running bank poles in ponds, you have a chance of catching your trophy LMB and killing them...So not a set it and forget it thing like in the river...

So if you have a night that you just want to have a fire and hang around the pond until sun up... Get on it, you have a nice mess for a fish fry...

Since both of those catfish are roughly the same length, take a look at the difference in mouth gape (size). That's why Flatheads are worse in a pond for eating fish than CC. Lusk has found 3# LMB in a Flathead stomach in a pond.......

This is on FHs from a prior thread..

North American Journal of Fisheries Management
Article: pp. 198–202

Gape:Body Size Relationship of Flathead Catfish
Joe E. Slaughter IVa,,1 and Brad Jacobsonb
a) Georgia Department of Natural Resources, Wildlife Resources Division, 2065 U.S. Highway 278 SE, Social Circle, Georgia 30025, USA
b) Arizona Game and Fish Department, Region IV, 9140 East 28th Street, Yuma, Arizona 85365, USA

Abstract.

The flathead catfish Pylodictis olivaris is a highly piscivorous ictalurid native to central North America whose range has been extended throughout much of the United States. With this range expansion, many populations of native fishes have experienced declines in the number of individuals due to direct predation by flathead catfish. Previous evidence suggests that flathead catfish are opportunistic feeders and may be the least gape limited of North American freshwater piscivores. To better understand the size of prey vulnerable to flathead catfish, we measured gape dimensions for individuals of various sizes to determine the maximum size prey a flathead catfish can kill based on its gape limitations. Our results show the relationship of total length to horizontal and vertical gape and the relationship of flathead catfish total length to the total lengths of ingestible-sized prey of different body shapes. Furthermore, comparisons of the body depth of three common fish species to the gape dimensions showed that no size of largemouth bass Micropterus salmoides, bluegill Lepomis macrochirus, or gizzard shad Dorosoma cepedianum would preclude predation by flathead catfish. Our results support the assumption that the flathead catfish is one of the least gape-limited piscivores.

Yeah what Eric said!! Flatheads can eat EVERYTHING!!!! There fricken garbage disposals. They do taste good however. But if you want catfish that needs to be your only real goal for that pond then. Eveything else is just dead meat!!

RC

YIKES!! Well my bass sound like they have been just snacks for the flatheads!This would explain the marks on my LMB!! I always thought they were just fighting with each other but a few 10-13in bass I have been catching look like they have been almost eaten!! No more catfish! After this Monsoon blows over in Southern IN I will start hitting the CATFISH hard. Do you think I will be able to catch them all? Do flatheads reproduce in ponds, what I read was no. I have a very deep pond with limited shallow areas. All this catfish talk is making me hungry. I will keep you all updated with pics and numbers of cats I pull out.

My pond is very murky from all this rain we have been having. I trenched a line down to the pond for electric last fall and no grass yet. So all the mud is washing into the pond. Will that hurt my catfishing chances?

Thanks for info !!
John

No catfish don't care if the water is muddy or not they will still eat. they don't see very well anyway that's why they have those whiskers to help them locate prey.

Just catch um baby catch um!!

RC

Flatheads are cavity spawners. They a cavity to make their nest in. 55 gallon barrel with the end cut out, etc.

I am not aware of any pond or even small lake that has a reproducing population. The smallest I've heard of is 40 acres and has a rather large feeder creek.

CJB I'm guessing your talking about FH not catfish in general..

So I went fishing this evening and did pretty decent! The crappie must be spawning heavy right now. I caught three 8in crappie in 30m and 2 very decent bass and one little bluegill. All on a rapella. I kept all crappie out and removed 2 this past weekend. One of the crappie had HUGE eyes, that means they are stunted right? Is it just that time of year for crappie? I seem to be catching alot right now.

So I have removed 8 large catfish ( no flatheads though). Now when I feed only two cats come up and the rest bluegills.

I think I may have a crappie problem too... Ha. Went out last night and caught 2 more and a lot of bites. My dad and I are going to start hitting the crappie hard. The crappie are very very aggressive right now.

I don't think the guy who stocked the pond with any minnows ever. Would it be a bad idea to stock some now to give my baby bluegill a rest. The shoreline is murder site in the evening. I'm adding some structure for smaller fish to hide. Now there is just some pond grass ? I don't know official name but looks like grass in about 1 ft of water.

Any suggestions??

Crappie are on spawn right now...they're going to be very aggressive for the next few weeks.

Unless you have a good bit of cover dumping minnows in a mature pond is basically expensive fish food. They can't survive most of the time...they'll just get eaten.

UPDATE!
I have noticed lots of small fry and baby fish. It also appears my BG are getting bigger and my LMB.

I was trying to figure all this out but would of the BG not been spawning in past years due to the Cat-Tails that had over run the whole pond. I had the pond completely cleaned of all Cattails last year. This year it is amazing all the baby fish I see. I added in lot of cover this summer too.

We have probably removed over 50lbs of CC and Flatheads over the past year too. Needless to say we have been having a lot of fish frys!

I have only kept about 5 nice Bluegills out and 3 LMB.

So my question now is where could I purchase some FHM? I would like to add some into my new shallow cover areas and get a good base of them growing. Is this possible and where can I buy them? Also how many should I buy. Pond is almost 3/4 of an acre.

If you have an existing population of LMB in the pond, the FHM that you stock will only be a short term snack for the fish. They will not establish a reproducing population in the pond (for any significant length of time).

FHM are used in the beginning stages of a pond to produce a large forage crop for the newly introduced fingerling LMB to gorge on. Once the LMB are 10"-12" or so, the population of FHM is usually all consumed and the LMB start concentrating on small BG.

Esshup,

I am gonna go out on a limb here and say that getting FHM going really all depends on his pond. I have all kinds of FHM year after year. And I have a fair amount of LMB in my 1 acre pond. I do have quite a bit of cover and tires for them but I think one thing is I have a couple of really shallow areas for them to get into and the bass cant really get into the shallows to get to them very well. Not saying your not correct in most cases, but I think it can depend on your shoreline as well and how fast it drops off.

RC

Very true! If you have shallow areas that allow them to escape predation from both below and above, plus have ample spawning habitat, then they can last in a pond for a long time. Many get hammered during the winters up here because those areas aren't available for them to hide in due to the ice and snow.

Oh I suppose I never thought about the winter ice.. If that happend here that would also be the case as my first 8 to 12 inches of water would be froze like you said! They would have to go deeper and then get busted!

RC

Well my pond has one finger off it and it is about 3ft at the deepest part then as it goes back it gets really shallow. I have a couple dead willow trees tied up in it and one Christmas tree. The baby fish are all hunkered down in this area now. So your telling me I would lose them in the winter in shallow areas if I was able to get them established.

Caught a 4lb CC last night Cut up a bluegill that had swallowed the hook and used it as bait. Really wanting to see if I can find anymore Flatheads! I find it really hard to believe he only put two in my pond. I hope he didn't but I would figure if he stocked them he put more than two.

Well jstiz the problem is where you live that small finger I bet will freeze like esshup said, so them small minnows have to come out of the finger and go deeper and then they could get ate. Where I am at here in Batesville Arkansas it does not hardly ever freeze for very long. So my FHM can stay a bit more shallow and skip getting ate! Fish naturally go deeper in the winter anyhow so you may could get by with it if you put a air station at the front of that finger in 3 foot of water in the winter. Some might make it then..... maybe...

RC