These are about 3/4" long, and became present about two weeks ago. I caught some then, but they were to small to even try to identify. I thought maybe my FHM had spawned, but I had my doubts at that time. Now I know for certain that they are not FHM, but what is the verdict?
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What type of fish do you have in the pond? Look like Lepomis (sunfish) of some sort.

I have stocked FHM and crayfish. I put 50 2" FHM in mid August, looked thru them one at a time. I even pitched a few of those, because they looked questionable. But now that I see what these look like at a small size, there was definately none with the FHM. The crayfish I stocked today.

I have a small spring that feeds the pond. It was diverted during renovation. So it is possible that these were in that area. The pond area was almost totaly dry, but there is that possibility too. What could have been in those areas is anybodys guess. Looks like my stocking plans/schedule is going to have to change......

They don't look like the GSF that are in my creek, which is no way connected or near this pond. These in the photo/pond have definate bands of vertical color. Are they too small to tell if they are GSF?

Can you show a pic of one with it's mouth open?

Look like BG to me

*DISCLAIMER* I am not a proffesional fish ID'r just a amateur pondmiester..

I will have to try and catch some more tomorrow and get a mouth open. Here is a better picture showing the definition of the mouth, but it's not open.

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I suppose if it's BG then it's better than GSF...... but it will create havoc in getting a FHM population going won't it? I'll have to bump my whole stocking plan up by a year..... I know, welcome to pond management, right....

Yes, BG in a pond WILL prey on FHM. I was at a pond today and the FHM that were stocked were being chased around by the BG in the pond in less than 15 minutes. The BG better watch out next year, as 50 fingerling LMB were stocked today too....





I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not liking the size of the mouth that I think I am seeing on the sunfish in your hand..............

Has JHAP visited your pond???

Yea, I'm really scratching my head on this one. If it's BG then I have to deal with them tainting the genetics of the new ones I will be putting in. If it's GSF, then they will compete for the food sources with stocking anything new. Either one makes it a not-so-ideal situation. I was planning on letting my pond "brew" for a whole year, building up the forage base. Now, I feel I have to act quickly with a stocking plan to quell this uprising.

I don't want to consider a kill off. Mainly beacuase of cost, but I also would find it hard to do personally. Any ballpark ideas of cost for a 1.25 acre pond 10' deep? I imagine it would have to be handled by professionals.

Thanks for the help so far, ..........Jim

Start trapping and remove all you can, perhaps you can slow them down some.

Try fishing with a small hook No12 and a piece of worm 14"-2ft under a bobber in the beach-shallow area to see if you can catch an adult; there are at least 2 adults. Sit and have a beer or soda for an hour or so and relax while you wait. Sitting down while angling often produces better results. Sometimes it doesn't hurt so make a little splashing sound to attract curious fish, then they may see the worm offering and bite.

Bill, if they are GSF, I've seen them full of eggs at 2 1/2" in length.

A person needs to have an applicators license to purchase Rotenone. It would be better if the pond were to be pumped down, reducing the ac/ft of water that has to be treated.

1 gallon treats 3 to 6 ac/ft of water, I drained down a pond and treated it twice to ensure that no GSF survived.

https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/219/

In the pond that was just killed, the GSF in the pond really limited the RES and YP recruitment.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=306135#Post306135

Well here are some pics of the mouth. Not an easy photo-op for something that is 3/4" long. Have you ever tried to get a fish to smile? As I'm taking these photos, I'm thinking this is probably an initiation gag, seeing how far I will go Next thing will be asking me to count the eyelashes

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I will certainly try this next week. If I could catch them, it would be easier to identify what they are....It don't change the fact that there are now lots of them It would set back more hatches, leveling the playing field a bit.

Those better close up pictures help with identification. Sunfish that small are a challenge to ID especially if you can't examine the specific features closely. Features for speciation of sunfish that small have been published but one needs to actually have the fish in hand for specific counts and measurements which is why I suggested you try to catch one of the rare adults. From what I see I dont think they are GSF. Although my reference for young GSF does show them with vertical body stripes/bars which your unknown fish have. It is still hard to see the back edge of the mouth mandble. My guess is Probably BG, RES or pumpkinseed? But I can easily be wrong by using pictures. Was the pond filled with water from the creek/ditch? Fish fry up to 2" long can easily be pumped alive through a trash pump.

If you can catch another one put it in a clear glass jar and take pics - that will help.

BG




AP's PS

I caught a couple 2" GSF today and examined their mouth and body closely. The back end of the mandible maxillary is very hard to see with the mouth closed. Now I think they could very well be small GSF. You will have to get a few larger ones to verify the name.

Bill, I'm leaning towards GSF because of the mouth gape, body shape and coloring, although I know the last 2 aren't quantitive methods of I.D.

Me too on leaning GSF. Mouth size and color/banding pattern.

I don't think those are GSF. They seem more BG like, but they're dead and quite small, making ID a challenge. So I will say, I am not quite sure so I don't have to explain my methods of making small sunfish ID's.

Travis,

Look at the mouths. They seem just a little too big for bluegills to me.

Yeah, the mouths do seem to big for BG, but I don't think they are GSF either. I have seen a lot of dinky GSF over the years and those don't look like them. Maybe HBG?

Thanks to everyone for their insight and help with this. I am definately going to keep catching some of the little ones, as they grow bigger, to eventually get a good/solid ID of what they might be. I am also going to try to catch those parents which would be the best ID.

But whatever they are, I need to decide on a course of action and am curious on some thoughts of everyone. At this time, a total killoff is not the route I want to go. It may be the best, but when I started the pond renovation my "perfect pond" idea was to be O.K. with "imperfections". I don't want something to where I have to obsess over it just being right. It has already exceeded my expectations, and nature has just thrown me a curve ball, and I will take the challenge. I enjoy that part of the process just as much as anything else. If it is a failure by "my standards" after I give it a try, then in 5 years I may consider redoing it all again and be that much wiser from the experience.

What would be everyones idea of WHEN should I stock? Is it right now to get stockers competing with whats in there now? Should I wait for other reasons, like bad time of year or the need to build a forage base?

Thank you, Jim

You may not need to stock BG if there are BG in now.

What is your goal. If its LMB/BG then you could stock a few 2-4 inch LMB now.

Goal is to have nice overall fishing, with as much as possible for table fare. My thinking is the easiest way to achieve this for my circumstances is BG. That would lean it towards a trophy BG pond. If I could get BG in the 10"+ range (or close to 3/4 pound??), that would be nice. Seems like all their offspring that needs culling should provide alot of table fare. I will add Red ear too.

Then add into the mix CC/LMB. I was thinking of trying to have enough CC to control the BG as it seems some past topics elude to them possibly doing it( no one has deliberatley tried this that I know of), and of course they provide table fare. They would eat the small BG, and I would thin out the mid size range of BG that get past the CC. But, if that doesn't work I'd go with LMB.

I may throw in a few HSB for sport since the LMB would never be allowed to get to any size. Possibly add in new HSB and take out larger ones for table fare. Other things that would be fun to play with is SMB and trout. Something like adding 6 SMB. I know they won't flourish or even reproduce, but just a rare variety that may be caught.

SO, considering that, if what hatched now is BG (or not), then what?......
1) Should I add BG from a fishery to start getting the genetics better?
2) Should I just let these BG(?) alone to flourish and grow as fast as possible, removing the parents(if possible) so more spawns won't compete with them?
3) should I still try to get some FHM going before the BG(?) are to big. Or is it better to just let the future predators of the BG be hungry so they thin out the next generation of BG?
4) If I need to keep these BG(?) controlled at this point, would adding trout now be feasable?

If they are BG and you are sure there are a lot of them then I would add the LMB and CC and see the results. If there are not enough of them you can add some adult BG next spring. FH now would be good. Trout would also work but not to control the BG but to grow over winter and eat next year.

Even if they are GSF the same plan will work but you will need to add adult BG next spring.

Update so far;

Fished and have not caught any adults yet.

I talked with the folks who I will probably get my stock from. I asked about RBT. They have them, and I asked what they eat, etc, etc, without telling them my situation. Otherwise they had no reason to tell me what they did. He said that RBT loves FHM (I pretty much understood that) and they also like BG under an 1.25" That they have gutted some in the past and found up to 50 BG in their stomach. They may be an alternate solution to my problem. I wonder if a 3/4" BG will grow another 1/2" in two to four weeks when I would stock RBT?

Also on a side note, he said they have some of the nicest SMB that they have had in years.

I can't think of a better way to turn a nuisance into dinner than RBT! A person can always stock year round fish but how often do you get to have some RBT action? RBT would be my answer to the problem! That, some cold beer and a pack of potatoes, sweet peppers, onions, corn and garlic; season and wrapped in tin foil to sit over the coals beside the RBT! sounds like a good fall day!

Netted another one today, slightly larger than the last catch. They have a much more vibrant blue/purple when out of the water, which is leaning me towards regular BG of some sort. But what do I know. I am only now starting to closely examine detials that I never considered before. Before PondBoss, they all looked like BG!

Those new pics and slightly larger fish are now looking more like GSF to me. Upper jaw or mandible extends slightly past the front of the eye which can be seen best on the 3rd picture - you have to look close. I looked at some GSF that size today and mouth structure appeared the same. The upper jaw of the mouth of a BG does not extend backward to reach the front of the eye. If I could post pictures better I would mark the picture with a vertical line showing the upper jaw as related to the front of the eye.
One benefit to the GSF and trout is the GSF are not as tall bodied as BG so the trout would be able to swallow the GSF easier compared to BG. If trout will gorge on small insect larvae the smaller size of your GSF should be no problem of the trout eating them. It is doubtful that the sunfish have to be in the 1.25" range for the trout to eat them.

Also the fin structure is GSF not BG as is the body shape. Not sure the genetics are pure or there could be some local adaptation.

I can't rule out HBG, but the more pictures I see, the more I lean towards GSF.

I take this as the trout will eat 1.25", or even bigger? I just want to make sure I am understanding it correctly. I have never even seen a RBT (first hand), so I wouldn't know a thing in regards to them.

If I were to stock RBT to knock these back, should I not stock other forage fish, like,FHM, so the RBT hammer these unwanted fish harder?

The fish farm said the trout are 10-14", with most 11-12".

Trout 11"-12" will consume fish up to at least 1.5" long. Adding FHM now in fall with the trout will take some of the predation influence off the sufish. I would wait till late June when trout are dead or close to dying to add the FHM. Adult sunfish will spawn again in June so you might want to consider adding two sizes of bass 2"-4" and 4"-6" along with the FHM. Or skip the FHM and let the bass feed heavily on the hewly hatched sunfish and last year's hatch of sunfish.

Do not stock FHM, you want the trout forced to feed on the GSF. If they have FHM to feed on them, they will focus on the easier to catch and feed on prey, instead of the GSF.

The bigger size RBT will be more effective predators, but even the 12" and maybe even the 10" will hammer GSF, particular if other food is limited.

I see that F-n-chips has added bass. You might want to just add some 4"-6" bass in the spring to help control remaining sunfish from 2012 hatch. No one answered your question about cost of rotenone for 1.25 ac.
A rough estimate of chemical will be about 3 gallons and retail cost of chemical could be around $300, labor to apply it may take 2-3 hrs.

No, I have not added bass. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that.

And thank you for the estimate on the rotenone. I have seen alot of users for it, but didn't have a clue to what something like that costs. Not bad for a good solution to a problem, however I will try to combat nature with itself.

Would it be safe to say that whatever this fish eventually iD'S as,
that it is NOT appearing to have good BG traits? In other words, good BG stock of this size would be looking different already?

Ps. What would be AWAG to the number of trout to go after them? Aprox 1.25 acres. At first I was guessing there were 200 little BG/GSF. A group of 20/30 here/there. Today, I think I was noticing more. And then there is the old saying "for everyone you see, there are a dozen more". I just don't want to be overerly cruel to the RBT with overcrowding.

Your goal should not be concern of cruelty to the trout but the need of heavy predation of the small sunfish. Without predation in 1.2 ac there could easily be 50-100 more than your guess. I see the bass fingerling pictures on page 1 were fish stocked by esshup.

So I am getting a plan together for stocking next week:

October 2012:

30-40 RBT 10-14" -- Plan on taking out aprox 10 before christmas. Since I have them I want to have a little fun while I'm at it.

150 RE 3-4"

50 LMB 2-4"

Catch whatever problematic adult sunfish I can.

Spring 2013
300 BG ? Size

50 LMB 4-6"

100 CC 4-6"

Start feeding Program

Keep trying to catch problematic adult Sunfish.
-------

Any thoughts or comments?

First are you sure what fish are available ?

50 RBT

RES - ok

25 6-8 in LMB now and spring

Adult BG early spring

Long term that is to many predators (LMB & CC) - harvest will be critical.

Doing reworks is always a challenge requiring mgt based on as much info as possible.

I agree with ewest, but I'd think about stocking all the LMB now, and here's why. You have a population of unknown sunfish in the pond. Your goal is to grow large BG. The unknown sunfish will pollute the gene pool of the BG once spawning starts. I'd want the LMB in the pond this year, and stock them large enough so they can start preying on the unwanted sunfish. Stock RES, but make sure they are large enough to avoid predation by the stocked LMB. When ordering fish, bank on many of the ones ordered to be at the smaller end of the size range, so keep that in mind with regards to your management plans.

On a personal basis, I like to stock Golden Trout in my pond because I like to see the fish swimming around, and watching them come up for food. I've found that the Goldens are more agressive towards lures than RBT when stocked in the same pond. A couple of years ago I stocked 75 RBT adn 25 Goldens in my pond. I caught the Goldens 3:1 vs the RBT even tho their population was lower.

If you want a source of Goldens, try calling Crystal Springs Fish Hatchery in Mi. John Nelski. I know he has Goldens health certified for stocking in Indiana and Illinois, I didn't ask about Ohio.

Ok. So here are some of my thoughts and more details and we'll see if I am thinking right/wrong.

I have checked with the supplier, and all of the sizes, amounts and types are available...except HSB.


I am worried that if I go with LMB 4-6" they will go after some of the RE 3-4". Is this wrong? (edit)-- Also, my thinking on the smaller LMB was that they could get into tighter areas to feed on the smallest of unwanted sunfish.

In the spring of 2013 I will start feeding. Before renovation, I was experimenatal feeding and it seemed like the CC were the biggest eaters. So I thought that they might easily go for the feed instead of natural forage. ??? I can include a dose of FHM in the spring, but thought it would be better to keep the predators going after the unwanted sunfish. I have thought about going with just larger CC and no LMB, but is that crazy? It would be an experiment at best....

fish n chips,if this was my pond i would have added 1 or 2 nice lmb as soon as I saw the fish.I'd then probably have waited till temps where in rainbow territory and added them,all the while keeping a eye on things.While playing around as soon or if the rainbows start to look skinny I'd fire up a feeder and or add fat heads in order to have table fare come spring.

Depending on things that happen,come spring I'd eat well on the rainbows and have rethought my plan.and more then likely depending on the lmb I added I'd try and prevent a spawn.

but that is me and i'm far from a expert,although unlike the experts I don't believe in killing off ponds unless absolutely unavoidable.

Continued.....



I like challenges, but it does get the head spinning with all the different things to consider.





I can get 4-6" BG in the spring, but that seems small for adults? I am tossing around the idea of building a cage, buying BG 2-4" to grow out to ?inches . The cage would also let me go after the unwanted sunfish with heavy predatation. But, I still am up in the air on this. If I did do this I could catch a larger LMB and put it in to go after some of the unwanted sunfish that made it thru this winter and got larger. But,it probably would eat my RE too. Sounds like trouble to me. Probably need to just fish it hard to catch the current spawners and any that escape the predators this winter. And possibly set up a trap...




I am striving for a hungry predator to go after unwanted sunfish. Then transition to a good BG pond. I thought that I want it to be LMB heavy (and CC should help this too ?). Since the CC would take to pellets before LMB, I thought they would do this rather than starve, leaving the LMB to still go after the sunfish and possible CC spawns.


My head is spinning now. Time to take a break...........Thanks for listening to my ramblings.

Robert-NJ, I was typing as you replied. We think alot alike. I feel sorry for you

I too like the idea of big LMB to take care of everything. I am just afraid that I couldn't catch 'em, then I would have to add really large stockers. I could grow the BG out in cages, buy big enough CC, but what about the RES ? It may be too late in the season for the LMB to do much good now.

I don't like the idea of a total killoff either. I do like challenges, and trying to think outside the box is a fun part to me. Nature has decided to throw me a curve ball, and I want to see if I can manage to work with it.

Scott,

If John (Crystal Springs) is good to go in Indiana he should be good to go in Ohio as far as testing. I also know he's sold trout in Ohio. The only slight impediment is he may need a "pre-entry" permit but that is doable.

I know Michigan and Indiana need '"pre-entry" permits on top of the health testing, but not sure about Ohio.

The LMB and BG with help from RBT should , over time, take care of the unwanted sunfish. That is with your help by harvest/removal. I would spend the time and effort looking for adult BG and RES and larger LMB (8 - 10 in would be great). 50 - 25 now and 25 in spring - or all 50 now would be good. You could use a cage to grow out fish but you need BG that will spawn this spring and produce lots of babies. Another idea is to seine out as many of the sunfish as possible. Check to see what all your fish source options are as that will be your biggest problem.

I do have the possiblity to catch nicer size fish out of a lake nearby. However, questions that arise from that are:

1) Are the RES of a 6-8" able to make the move succesfully?

2) The largest BG I have caught there are 7-8". They are the nicest size BG around in any BOW near me. Is this a bad idea because they may not be a good strain of BG for stocking? Would they eventually have offspring that can get bigger?

3) What is the reason I want to make sure the good BG spawn this spring?

4) Everyones defination must vary on this, but what is adult BG size? Common sense tells me adult is when they are large enough to spawn, but isn't BG able to start doing this at a small size.

I apologize for what is simple questions. I have been following PondBoss for aprox 3 years now and have read alot. I was planning on spending my whole winter reading more and formulizing a stocking plan. I just feel now I have to act quickly.

I don't plan on feeding the RBT. My thinking is that they will be hungier than yours, which should make it easier for catching???? I am kind of happy/sad about my situation. I don't think I would be considering trout if it wasn't for this unexpected hatch. But now I get to see if I like trout, however they most likely will not be prime table fare by spring.

I noticed little fry yesterday. Caught one and is was about 3/8" long, and with a tranparent body. Seems like a big size difference from the others. Could this be from the same hatch where some are now 1.5" long?

Even wth feeding, the trout weren't shy about biting a small spoon or a small spinner. When I ice fished on the other side of the pond, I'd catch more trout than BG.

Can you put a few of the small fry in a mason jar and take a good close up pic? They might be from an even later hatch.

I doubt that the table fare quality will change from now 'till spring.

Well the easy and casual life of those little fish are over. Trout, bass, and redear are stocked.

A few pics, but only a few. I was planning on taking many, but when I opened the first bag, several of the trout where stressed and I wanted to move quickly instead of worrying about the pictures. It turned out that the first bunch I opened up were the only ones in trouble.

The two shown are ones that didn't make it. Needless to say they were dinner and gave us a chance to try them. The wife wasn't crazy about them, so we'll see if she warms up to them before I get more in the future.

This is the first time I have been around trout. I can't get over how much more slippery these guys are. I was also suprised how large their mouth gap are. I thought it would be alot smaller. So far, a fun experiment. Glad it came about.

Nice looking trout!

Wait 'till you catch them. You'll be telling them to quit flopping like I do. Slippery? Like an eel!!!

Beautiful rainbows, they should grow quickly.

Ok... Time for an update to my pond and its situation. I took the afternoon off and tried to catch RBT.

As some may know, I haven't had the best of luck catching the trout. Not much has changed in that department. I have gone down to 2# test line and a black hook, baited with a SS brown pellet. Today was a sunny day and I could see every move the trout were making. Many would zoom in on the pellet when it hit the water, get about 6" from it and then take a sharp turn from it without even tasting it. Never did any take an interest if the SS pellet sank. If they hit it at all, it was when it immediately landed on the water. I did catch one. Just shy over 15" and weighed 2# 6 oz.




I have seen noticeably less of the unknown small sunfish that prompted me to stock the RBT in the first place. Did the trout help with that, I hope so. I did not feed over the winter, and started feeding about the beginning of April. I trapped some of them today, and tried them for bait to see if the trout would take. Set it up with a bobber and tossed it out. No luck with it near the surface, so set it a bit deeper. Something took it, and went off flying. Snapped the line rather quickly so can't say for sure what it was.

Opened up the RBT to see what it has been eating. All pellets, and a few shells. I am curious as to how it ate shells. By eating another fish? By thinking it was a pellet? Seems hard to imagine the trout eating off the bottom. There were no sunfish in the stomach, but I find it hard to believe that this fish got to this size without eating them over the winter, and only being on feed for a month.





Next time I will try with the sunfish for bait again to see if it can be confirmed what that might have been. Hard to believe it was a bass that could have gotten big enough.


Thanks Pond Boss for making this happen. Never would have thought that this venture would have taken this route. I have enjoyed the RBT a lot. So much so, that if I had to do it all again, I might consider the pond devoted to just them. This is only one of many reasons why I tend to believe in working with what you got, and learning from it. You never know where it might take you.


......Jim

Hatchery trout are dumb as a bag of bricks when it comes to them mistaking other items for brown pellets. The stream behind our cabin is lined in hemlocks. The trout gorge themselves on the fallen hemlock cones that fall into the water and are small and brown. Rainbow trout seem to be even more stupid than brown trout in this regard. In those rare years where we get the trout to hold over the summer, they seem to get brighter and hold over trout rarely eat junk. I am betting your rainbows were thinking the snails were pellets...

Fish,that is a pretty fish.

Try a 1/16 oz. little cleo spoon. Silver or gold and orange. Or a small rooster tail spinner.

Current photos of the unknown species of what was the concern back in the fall of 2012. This is the largest caught so far at 2.25". Not the best pics, sorry. More will come as they get older and bigger.

Looks like a washed out in color GSF to me...

yeah, this one seemed to turn a yellowish pink color as soon as it was pulled from the pond. Never turned back to its normal color. The color is pretty accurate in the photo, just blury.

GSF IMO.

Looking back, I see that I never stated what I actually ended up stocking.

48 RBT 11-14"
22 LMB 4-6"
3 LMB 6-8"
100 red ear 4-6"
100 BG 4-6"
50 BG 6-9"
50 CC

I had wanted to get more LMB 6-8", but that's all they had.

What are they? I will show my ignorance and say
1-mix GSF and BG that leans towards GSF
2-mix GSF and BG
3-BG

They look like BG to me. Could be a few odd genes but high % BG.

I'm with Ewest. They look like BG to me.

Well, that sounds promising so far. Guess I'm paranoid about the GSF, considering that I had some spawn late last year. I'm kind of on a quest to see if I can catch some of those culprits.

Thanks Guys.

Yeah, I am see all BG in the photos, don't stress to much!

Caught this one in the pond today. Length is 6.5". My guess is GSF??

Also, under the best of growing scenarios, what year could this one have been born?

I bet it is at least one, of who knows how many, that I was trying to catch last fall. By its colors and shape, looks pretty darn close to the little ones I have been finding before my stocking.

That's a Greenie all right.

I got a ? is that the same thing as a warmouth looks like what I have heard called a warmouth just a lot bigger than what I catch

WM is not the same as GSF but they are related.

That is a GSF or at least a high % GSF genes. Could have a few BG genes as the color on the fins/tail is a trait of HBG.

I'd say at least 2 years old.

Thanks Everyone!!!

As I suspected, the villain was in there for a long time. Live and learn. I was thinking it was at least two years or more too.

Update time on the situation with the GSF. I will start with the summer of 2013. The RBT grew tremendously well. I attribute that to them feeding on the GSF thru winter and spring. Looking back on that summer, I now feel the GSF was not under the best of control. The reason is because in early summer we had a one in a 50/100 year flood. The pond overfilled into back acres of property and also went over the dam. I did notice in the pools of water left behind lots of small fry, but by the time I was able to put time into checking them, they were all gone. I think the kingfishers and herons got them. The water stayed high for may weeks after, making it difficult to see what was really going on. I did not notice any LMB spawning or BG, but thought that with the pond flooded I was just not able to see them, and perhaps they were done by that time too. So come fall, I got more RBT to work on the few GSF that were left (or so I thought). And they are a blast to have in the pond too. When I stocked those, I also added some more RES, but didn't add LMB because I thought they spawned ok.

That brings us to this summer(2014). The RBT didn't grow as well, but it was a long winter. And besides, it made sense that if the GSF were diminishing the trout wouldn't grow as well. Sample fishing around the pond was looking good. I caught a few BG that to me was showing success. Slightly over 8". I don't think I have ever caught BG as big as that. Definitely LMB and BG on beds. All seemed good.

Then here comes the GSF, anything under 3.5" seem to be them. Why just them and nothing else. No sign of BG or LMB from last year spawn, or this year. Bill Cody said there is a possibility that the GSF are eating all them. My LMB are now in the 12- 14" range, and they probably don't want to mess with the small GSF. So, I decided to add some small bass again. At the hatchery, they didn't have 4-6' size, 2-4" just didn't seem like a good idea, so I added 30 LMB 6-8". They were feed trained, so I shut down the feeder for the next two weeks per Cody's recommendation. So if each bass eats a GSF/day, that will add up over the summer. More than I could ever catch/trap.

Now I'll wait and see what happens. Can't say yet whether or not the GSF are under control. Sorry for the ramble of history, but I feel that all the different stuff that has happened has contributed to the current results. Every ones scenario will be different. I will also say that I have a heron visiting now too. That may throw a quirk into it. However, will a heron grab everything but GSF? Somehow I find that hard to believe. Long live the GSF, just in moderation.....

Thanks for the update Fish.

I think those larger LMB will still eat the little 2" GSF as they run across them. Why do I think so?

I caught 2 (there are only 6 or 8 LMB in my old pond) LMB, one 13" and one 14". Was totally surprised. Caught them on a small plastic jig while trying to catch any larger GSF. So those foot plus LMB were hitting a small plastic jig less than 2" long in the areas the GSF hang out, along the shore line in foot to two feet deep water. Tells me the LMB were hunting the GSF.

For those unaware, I have been following a similar path as fish n chips (but about a year behind him) concerning GSF contamination. Here is a link to my thread and GSF saga for those in the future that might have the need for GSF management information. 100% green sunfish I think it goes along well with this thread on managing around unwanted GSF in the early stages of stocking a pond.

Contamination is such an ugly word for the fun loving green sunfish.

Dave you need to start a GSF fan club. At least the membership list would not be hard to manage.

JHAP had one going (GSF fan club). Can anyone find the picture of their logo?

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...ite_id=1#import

That thread just dead ended when it was getting interesting. Will have to do some jhap searches later to see how it turned out.

Here is JHAP's thread with the GSF logo. What a hoot!

This link belongs as a source of reference for this thread.
Warmouth vs Green Sunfish

Yolk Sac's advice it timeless. Quote from old thread:
------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By: RC51
...but you can't beat it if you can get them for FREE!

(Yolk Sac)
I should take this opportunity to point out that herpes is also free, equally hard to control as green sunfish, and elicits the same degree of disapprobation in some circles.
--------------------------------

Now that's funny.

Thanks snrub!!!!

Cody Note: Some of the members here are real creative at being really funny. I love'em all especially when it is about ponds.

Another thread on GSF.

GSF size to keep

Apologies fish n chips. Your thread has taken on a life of its own.

Dang it. I wish you hadn't posted that thread by Yolk using the word disapprobation. That sent me to the dictionary. I just don't have the formal edjucation to handle 5 syllable wurds.

I just skip over them and pretend they are not there or make up whatever meaning I want them to have.

Well I pulled the last minnow trap for the season and the beloved GSF are safe for now. At least from me. The LMB may have other ideas. Still putting 4_5" BG though. Will see what kind of fishery evolves. Maybe I can win that monster GSF contest.

With GSF around, you won't catch a lot of BG. If they get close to the groceries, the GSF whups their butt, takes their lunch money and sends them home crying. Then Mom whups their butt again and reminds that they they aren't supposed to get around those hoodlums that hang out on the street corners.

(Yolk Sac)
I should take this opportunity to point out that herpes is also free, equally hard to control as green sunfish, and elicits the same degree of disapprobation in some circles.

The only thing worse than getting Herpes is paying for it in the first place. However, that's likely the origin of many reported cases - you know, from a "pro". Talk about adding insult to injury.

I was trying to come up with a way I could infer from your statement that the "pro's" are the ones causing our GSF infestation problems. But decided while trying to insult the pro's only mildly I might insult them greatly and thought better of it. So I'll just shut up.

Boy we shut this one down in a hurry. Where's JHAP when he's needed to stoke the puerile campfire?

+1

Bashing GSF just isn't as much fun without JHAP's comebacks....

Here's something to bash for those who don't like GSF.

Picture of what I believe is a RES/GSF hybrid. Anyone think otherwise?

Too young to tell sex?

Sorry for the poor pictures. Phone camera and I must have moved.

I don't know, awful lot of GSF in that photo, with little RES traits outside of the red margin.

I think the second photo shows an opercular shaped more in line with that of a RES. Still a bunch of GSF in there though.

I opened the mouth and it seemed awfully small for a GSF. Bigger than a RES of that size though.

The red on that opercular is quite vivid. I've seen greenies that featured this trait, but don't recall it being as bold as your photos show. HBG may also have some color.

That is what nearly all my hybrids look like. The redish/pinkish border on the opercular tab is kind of translucent.

I figured the one pictured was RES/GSF because the tab is very bold and solid in color rather than being translucent. All my pure GSF have that translucent looking redish/pinkish tab. Also the mouth just had a different look to it. I have not had enough experience to explain the look, but it just looked different than the other hybrids caught.

I suppose this fish could have came from one of the early spawns from my pond, but it would have needed to come from a hybrid/RES cross, so it is more likely it was a mutt from one of my later stockings of RES. As far as I know there are no pure GSF in this pond so it would seem improbable the fish have so much GSF attributes without one of the parents being a pure GSF.

Was a pretty fish. It got transferred to my old pond to grow out. Amazing how much the color looks different in the two pictures. Either it changed that much while I was messing with the fish or the lighting angle was just different in each photo.

I'm seriously considering next spring sticking one single GSF female in my sediment pond along with the 175 RES and 100 CNBG fingerlings I put in it recently. Once the fingerlings get big enough so the GSF doesn't eat them all that is. Just to potentially get a mix of some more hybrids in the main pond. Probably a bad idea, but I'm entertaining it anyway. Probably been hanging around Dave Davidson too much when I start talking about propagating GSF characteristics.

Very hard to tell from the pic. Suggest you look at WiscFish web site at hybrid sunfish cross pics.