This is my first post, and I want to say what a great site this is. I have already learned so much about freshwater ecosystems here.

Anyway, last month I purchased 20 acres near La Grange in Texas and on it lies a small 0.3 acre pond. The pond is roughly 4-5 feet deep in most areas and 8 feet deep in the middle. There is cover in the form of bushes and downed trees and some sandy shallow spots near one side of the shore. There are also thousands of minnows on the shallow banks.

I fished it for the first time this weekend using free bait (nearby grasshoppers & catapillars) and came up with a few dozen very small fish. I had to switch to a very small panfish hook to land anything. All were in the 1"-3" range. I am pretty sure they are green sunfish. I base that on there elongated warmouth body shape, largish mouth, brownish color, and blue/turquiose streaks on their mouth. Based on my experience and confirmed with what I have read here and elsewhere I would say that this pond is overpopulated and stunted.

I do not know the history of the pond, and I live nearly 2 hours away which makes it a bit difficult to take daily observations.

My goals are simple, big perch. I want big bluegill, pumpinseed and red ear sunfish. I would be happy with 6-8" perch but would really love to have 9-11" present. Once attained I intend to harvest maybe a hundred a year for consumption. I would prefer bass over catfish for a predator, but do not intend to actively fish for either. I also would prefer not to drain or rotodone the pond, if at all possible my preference would be to take a longer approach and keep the system natural and alive.

Looking for advice on turning this pond around. I would like to formulate a 2-3 year gameplan to start working towards my goals.

Thanks.

Are you interested/willing to eradicate the current fish population?

Welcome, cdixon. We really look forward to your participation in the forum!

Hi Bruce, thanks for the quick reply.

To anser your question, yes if it is necessary to reach my goals that's what I will do. I am not really opposed to going that route. However, if it could be resolved more naturally via predation and time I would prefer to go that route.

A population of small GSF can definitely be managed out of without using the nuclear option. The game plan is 1) stock many predators to beat down the GSF numbers and 2) stock desirable replacement forage species, in sizes large enough to escape loss from #1.

LMB are the classic predator to use in this situation. They would be much more successful than catfish (CC at least) for this purpose. If you utilize LMB, you will in 2-3 years (all going well) have eliminated most of your GSF leaving a pond with a lot of LMB - which is also highly conducive to having the big BG/RES (and presumably big PS, as far as "big" goes for Pumpkinseeds) you desire.

It will be very hard to have the big bream you want without a lot of predators of some kind. In your place I would plan on stocking the self-replicating LMB and taking that route. Stocking HSB would also be a possible option.

I must mention that several PMs I highly respect (including our illustrious Guvnor Davidson) warn of problems controlling LMB numbers in small ponds. However, if you are after big bream, too many LMB may be exactly what you want.

My goals are the same as yours for the most part. I want huge sunfish.

You'll have to establish which predators are present, if any, in your pond. You should fish some more.

Can you collect a digital image of the fish that you've been catching so it can be displayed on the forum for evaluation?

Bruce, I agree with doing more fishing!

For what it's worth, I used one of those smartcast fish finders to map out the depth. There were absolutely zero fish shown anywhere on the display. As far as I know the device is in good working condition, I use it when fishing from a kayak a bit.

What other information would be useful in working out a plan? That way the next time I am there I can be sure to collect the pertinent information.

There was only a single picture taken of the fish caught this weekend, so I hope it has all the detail you need.

Theo,

Thanks for the detailed response. Your explanation is very similiar to what I had in mind. Like most things, the tricky part looks to be in the details.

Most of the "formulas" I see for stocking numbers seem either made up on the spot or heavily geared towards creating a LMB pond. I would like to hear more thoughts from people with goals similiar to mine. It looks like there are quite a few BG fans on here.

Thanks again guys.

That green sunfish looks like he needs a little "tough love" from some predators. A .3 acre pond might be a good candidate for some trapping as well. Somewhere there is a good thread with some photos of traps that were used to manage some of the sunfish numbers. To date I haven't heard of anybody who was motivated to do so, that didn't have success controlling GSF.

What's the water clarity like?

CDIXON -- I'll throw a number at you. I think you should introduce 15 pounds of adult largemouth bass. I'd suggest 30 of them at 0.5 pounds each, if you can find them.

I'm sure Theo and Bruce can respond to the stocking recommendation. That's probably why Dr. Bruce was asking about your water clarity. He wanted to know how productive your pond might be before he committed to a stocking plan. Others of us sometimes jump right in!

Maybe let the LMB work down the GSF numbers before you introduce other species. In 0.3 acres, it may not take long.

The water looks brownish to me, however when a line is tossed in you can easily see the hook/bait suspended to about 18-24 inches deep. I could be wrong but I take that to mean the water is clean and clear, but I have brown color coming from the bottom. There are trees nearly surrounding the pond which over the years would have deposited many many leaves.

Here are some images of the pond surface:

February 2007

February 2007

March 2007

April 2007

Salvador Dali once asked me to comment on melted clocks ... I was wise enough :rolleyes: to beg off (that time).


30 half pounders sounds nice; enough for the job, not a humongous number after the GSF numbers are reduced. A good size too, that should be able to handle small GSF now and the slightly larger ones that may likely be in place when they have more food per GSF, as the bass grow. Just the kind of recommendation you'd expect from a Picasso or a Dali.

Based on Lusk's Turkey Farm runoff GSF infested pond story, I'd personally figure for a year of LMB predation before stocking BG & RES. We don't want the bass getting distracted from the Greenies. I'd also monitor (with extreme prejudice) GSF numbers and size during the year via angling, seining, and/or traps. But if I had a local source of BG (& RES) large enough to escape the LMB I would think about putting them in this Fall.

cdixon -- nice pictures. That's a pretty little corner of the world.

Theo -- are you saying that I'm melting? That would explain a lot.

Cool Pictures, love the "remote" location. Maybe it's just me, but the pictures, especally March, look a lot bigger than 3/10 of an acre.

Dan

cdixon-

GREAT looking pond. Does your motivation for the big bream have anything to do with the critters in your last pic?

One other question-does your pond connect to any other body of water? Is there a creek flowing in? I think it's interesting that you've got a lot of big mouthed green meanies and still have large numbers of small minnows....which might make great bluegill supplements someday, if not completely decimated by a bunch of LMB.

A neighbor has given me access to a smaller, much less scenic pond than yours, perhaps 1/6 acre, which is likewise inhabited only by very large numbers of stunted GSF, with a few up to about 8". I want to use it to grow BG to stock in other ponds. I really don't want any LMB in that pond, and killing it isn't an option [because his wife would have a cow], so I'm stocking it slowly with 6-9" BG and removing the GSF as quickly as I can by hook and line. I'm going to start feeding as soon as I can afford another feeder. If BG fecundity is much better than GSF as it appears to be from info here, I'm hoping I can get a good population of 4-6" gills up and going. perhaps enough to overwhelm the GSF. There are a lot of ponds like this one around here, originally stocked with HBG and left to go to seed.

Are you planning to feed? Your distance from the pond makes this a little difficult, but you could really accelerate growth with one.

Good luck with a great project.

Yes, indeed, fertility is an issue in stocking. I like Dr. Dave's numbers. One nice thing about largemouth bass is that they're relatively easy to decrease their numbers later in a small pond through angling. I was going to say 30-40 half pounders, then adjust their numbers through angling as they nail the GSF.

Gradually adding adult bluegill (too big for the LMB to eat) is a great plan as well.

Could the thousands of "minnows" actually be thousands of young-of-the-year green sunfish?

Thanks for the kind words guys.

Dan, 3/10 of an acre did and still sounds small to me as well. If I did something wrong in measuring it, please let me know. I'll show I got this number below.

Yolk, not exactly a creek flowing into it, but a draw does empty into it. I've got a rough set of drawings....




The property drops from north to south, with the front (bottom of pictures) being around 400 in elevation and the back of the property (top of pictures) being about 385.

From east to west there also is a dip in the middle that creates a 300 foot creek by allowing rainfall to collect and flow into the pond.

For the sizing, I basically call it two bodies to work with. The main pond being 7 feet deep and measures roughly 75' by 100' semi-square and the draw/creek I call a triangle with a base of 15' and a length of 300' and average depth of 4-6'. Using the calculator at http://www.csgnetwork.com/volumefishpondcalc.html I come up with 0.223 surface acres and 1.566 acre feet.

For your other questions, no I do not currently plan to feed. I would like to keep things natural and if not maintance free at least electricity free.

Yes, those are my kids and I hope to instill the same love of fishing (especially for sunfish) as I have. My daughter is already somewhat "hooked" so to speak.



Thanks again

Hi cdixon.

I can't remember who, but someone on PB forum linked to a great tool for estimating area. Basically you find your land using the map tab, then switch to satellite view and click the outline of the pond, and your area is automatically calculated. You'll see the directions on the right side of the page. I'm sure on a small pond there will be a sizable margin of error, but it might help.

Planimeter

Thanks Yankee, using the planometer I come up with 0.24 acres.

Do 30 1/2 pound LMB still make sense for a 1/4th acre pond?

That's only 60 lbs per acre, and with an easy ability to harvest bass later on. I think it sounds like a great place to start.

Yes that would be a good start. Use a trap or seine to take out more GSF also. When you get the GSF #s down some then start adding adult BG and or RES.

The green sunfish, IMO, don't have a great deal of growth potential. I like them in some cases as bass food but they just don't get as big as Bluegills. Thus, consumption goals don't always work well with them.

LMB will absolutely thin their numbers but can overspawn and create a new problem unless you really want to intensely manage in the future. A 2 hour drive, the inevitable childrens activities and expensive gasoline makes that tough.

Have you considered about 20 or so Hybrid Stripers? I consider them as maybe the best management tool you can get in a smaller pond. Once they reduce the Greenies numbers, add some big bluegills and keep culling out the bigger green sunfish. George Glazener will tell you that they are not only an open water fish.

If I had that water hole, and I don't, I would think about nuking it and starting over. It might be a lot easier. On the other hand, I bet that young lady doesn't care what size the fishies are. She will have a ball catching them no matter what the size.

Dave,

Thank you for the suggestions. I did consider HSB originally before posting my original question. The controllable reproduction is very appealing. I had a few concerns though.

Please correct me if I am wrong, I understand them to be more of an open water fish. Will they go into the shallows and forage like a LMB will?

Also, as the deepest spot is only 8', and I do not know what the drawdown is for drought and Texas summers I have a concern about how they will deal with the warm water. I have read that whitebass/HSB are more temperature sensitive than the LMB/SMB families.

Finally, I was not planning on introducing any shad into the pond, but some here seem to indicate that shad is a near must with HSB.

Given the situation, goals and concerns, do you think the benefit of HSB still outweighs the risks?

For what it's worth, I had a very similar situation,i.e a 1/4 ac pond loaded with stunted GSF and little else. I decided to try and manage the problem rather than use rotenone. In June of last year I caught and planted 10 adult LMB from several sources (10"-13"), along with 80 adult (4"-7") BG. Through last summer I caught several hundred GSF (1"-3") with hook and line, and with a fish trap. In October I put in 25 (2"-3") LMB and 20 (2"-3") RES left over from my aquarium experiment.

About 3 weeks ago I observed several of the large bass around the edge guarding beds, also there were several small groups of bass (5"-6") and a few (7"-8") bass patrolling the shallows. There were dozens and dozens of hand size or better BG all around the pond, and thousands of 1"-2" young all around the edge.

Last week I fished for the first time this year and caught a half dozen large(ish) BG (6"+) on hook and line, and caught several dozen young BG (1"- 3") and GSF in my fish trap. I certainly can't say that this is a fix (not yet anyway) but it is incredibly exciting to know that I now have a diverse and viable fish population and that the pond is on the road to recovery.

My plan is to catch out all but a couple of the large bass, remove most of the intermediate bass, and remove as many adult female BG, and small (of all kinds) BG and GSF over the next 2-3 years. The goal is to be able to go down to the pond for an hour or so on a regular basis and catch 8 or 10 large BG and a 3 or 4 (1-2lb) LMB.

Cdixon, I am not qualified to advise, but I will be happy to share my HSB experience.

First your concern about HSB being open water fish and not going into the shallows like LMB:
You are correct that HSB are essentially an open wate species, but as my mentor always says “it all depends”.

When critters are hungry, they follow the food.
I frequently catch them as shallow as a foot deep when they are feeding, to the deepest areas of our pond.They like to hang out in deep water when suspended.

Secondly, in our main 2-acre pond we now have 4 consecutive year classes of HSB, ranging from 10 –12 inch to 20+ inch HSB.
They have prospered through three record-breaking heat and drought conditions, with water levels in the 4-5 ft range.
This pond is aerated and fish fed with automatic feeders.

Our second pond is ¼ acre “grow-out” HSB/BG pond, three years old and has never filled.
We continue to catch and transfer to main pond 2#, 2 year old HSB that to date has controlled the BG population.
50, 8-10 inch HSB were stocked Nov 2006 to “grow-out” for transfer to main pond, but none transferred to date. We are leaving them in the pond at the present time to attempt control of the ongoing prolific BG spawn.

The 2# HSB in the 1/4 acre pond have survived two years N.E. Texas record breaking heat wave and low water summers with no aeration, proving to be a hardy species.

Hope this helps in making your decision.
Good luck,
George Glazener

Mikebee,

I like your approach, goals, and get after it attitude. I'm on a similar trip with a small 1/4 acre pond that was originally stocked with GG's and HSB as the predator about 16 months ago. The HSB quickly became completely hook shy...and thus worthless to me so I decided to move to LMB as the primary predator.

IMO, LMB get a bad rap as a small pond fish. The key to being successful with them in a small pond, I believe, is to remove all you catch...practice catch and remove, not release. Following that approach, you can "have your cake and eat it too". By that I mean, you can have readily catchable LMB (minimum conditioning because you remove all caught fish). To protect against removing too many, I fin clip the stockers and practice catch and release with them only. This approach is far superior to sexing LMB because it minimizes conditioning. Using sexed LMB as the primary predator is just like using HSB and they will become completely conditioned. To have the diverse, fast action fishery you want, LMB are the ticket as long as you remove caught fish.

Your stated goal can definitely be achieved in a 1/4 acre pond and it will be an absolute blast...stick to your approach, remove all the LMB you catch, and you will be rewarded with the pond you desire.

WRT HSB survival in hot weather:

Remember, george is very protective of his HSB in hot weather in order to keep from losing them. He aggressively rescuscitates them with pure O2 when caught. George, am I correct that you curtail HSB fishing in the hottest weather, or has the pure O2 system obviated the need for that?

Thanks again for all of these great responses, the real world experiences of those on this forum are worth tons to me.

I have decided on the following plan. I welcome any criticism.

Add:
20 7-8" HSB
40 4-6" CNBG
40 4-6" RES

Continue to remove all GSF caught with angling and traps. Everything else would be catch n release for at least 6 months, maybe longer.

Re-evaluate at the spring and fall of every year and adjust as necessary.

Meadowlark, would HSB become conditioned even if you removed every one that you caught? I'm considering a GG, HSB mix in my (1/2 - 3/4 acre) pond. I was thinking that I would condition every HSB caught to 375 degree oil.

Yes, I do cut back on fishing for HSB in hot weather, not so much for the fish as for my own well being... :rolleyes:
I don't have an O2 resusitation chamber that can accomodate my old body....

I do fish for BG in hot weather, and when I hook a HSB, I resusitate with pure O2

A good point about harder to catch HSB in a small pond is whether they are feed trained - our first batch in "grow-out" pond were introduced into a pond full of FH minnows, followd by a BG spawn and they never became feed trained.
The best way to catch them has been on small spinner baits and rattle traps.

Current batch are feed trained and will hit pellet flies and lures.

GW and ML, please excuse me for jumping in on your question but if strickly a "put and take" HSB fishery, a "ladder" of HSB can be estblished by limited annual stocking.
All HSB can be released into hot grease and have a new crop every year of easy to catch "non-conditioned fish.

If you have various sizes of HSB in your pond, with the smallest being 8 inches, is there a way to target the large ones without hooking the small ones?

Are the small HSB just as likely to die if hooked as the large?

Good question GW – I really don't know, but I'll give my opinion and strategy employed.

First of all HSB don't become hook shy on pellet flies if pellet trained and in a feeding frenzy mode.
Competition overcomes conditioning.

The approach I use for selective harvest is size of lure/fly.
Larger the fish – larger the lure – and use single hooks.
Treble hooks will catch small fish.

I've done well recently with a 3 inch $Gill fly tied with synthetic GLO bright chartreaus material, with chartreaue spinner blade.
They'll probably get wise to this fly.

Based on my experience, the larger the fish the harder the fight and more prone to stress.
Mortality from stress appears to be about the three-pound range if not landed quickly and resuscitated.
I've only killed one HSB and it was 4.5 #'s and good table fare.
Based on years of striped bass fishing, I prefer 2 – 3 # fish for the table.

Trim the stronger red meat as you would a white bass or striped bass.
Excellent table fare.

GW,

I don't know for sure but it just seems logical that if you do indeed remove every one you catch, then conditioning should be minimized. It certainly works that way on LMB for me. The problem , as I see it, with that approach in a small pond predator situation is being disciplined about removing every one caught, without exception, and also being disciplined about replacing them in a timely manner. I really like the GG's for their growth and aggressiveness, but it is very critical that you keep sufficient predators on them. IMO, the LMB is a superior predator in that situation. HSB have a small mouth, prefer pellet food, and since the GG offspring grow very quickly, they can get ahead of the HSB. I'm seeing evidence of that very thing happening in my small GG pond. Another reason I'm switching over to LMB as the predator on a catch and remove approach in that pond.

It's certainly appealing to be able to have a sterile predator, but all things considered, I'll take the fertile LMB every time for East Texas ponds...only exception is the grill where the HSB has few equals in warm water fish.

By the way, I think I was possibly the first on here to report HSB high temp angling intolerance in Texas ponds...a report which generated great derision from some. My findings, then and now, are consistently high angling mortality (100 % for me) in HSB over 3 pounds caught in water temps above 82 degrees regardless of tackle used. If you practice catch and remove, then the water temp problem in East Texas won't come into play. I have seen this mortality only (but sadly always)on fish over three pounds and have seen evidence of non-angling high temp mortality the past two summers.

I wish it were not so, but then I also wish I could have SMB and rainbow trout year around in my East Texas ponds, but wishing doesn't make it happen.

ML. I'm just not a gloom and doom sort of guy - I enjoy succeeding when others fail.
All fish are vulnerable to catch and release mortality.

LMB tournament professional fishermen face this problem continuously, and devise sophisticated live well systems to handle the problem, yet fish sometimes die when released back into tournament lakes. Oxygenated live wells are now being used in some of the new bass boats.

Didn't you recently lose a 10# LMB due to catch and release stress?
It's not only HSB that are vulnerable to C&R stress.

I will be happy to catch 2 – 3 HSB the rest of my life, even though I have caught and successfully revived several larger fish.
I am not into “trophy” fishing.
“It all depends”