Looking to stock some FH and can not find a place to get them in bulk with in a reasonable distance , Any ideas?

May be tough to source fatheads in that area as shiners are king in Florida. What is your planned use for the FHM in your pond? You may be able find another species that would fit those needs that is easier to find in FL...

Wanted to give more options in lower levels and easier pry for predators. It has Mainly BG, the gambusia are very large and cover the surface. Lots of pallets and one big rock pile for them to nest. I Discovered a small tarpon and snook in the pond fishing fishing for Bream, so im thinking they will need to eat if they continue to survive. strange no LMB found a way in but they haven't and from what I have read thats a good thing. neihborhood kids added a couple Koi too.,never saw any babies from them though,.

FHM are slow swimming and easily preyed on... It'd be my guess 1 pound of FHM would last less than 3 days in your pond. GSH may not do much better, but have a far better chance at producing a self sustaining population. The larger GSH you can source, the better chance they'll take hold.

There are a few other native species you may be able to catch locally that could survive and do well in your pond. A couple are very predator tolerant. Their are a few species of topminnows(golden, banded and lined)they are first to come to mind and the best option IMO. They are very predator resistant. They will hug the surface but get much larger than gambusia. They all reach at least 3" in size. The flagfish is another option. You may be just a bit too far north for them, depending where exactly you are in FL. Another option is the sailfin molly. A livebearer like the gambusia, but it gets about twice as large. Another species found in your area that is fairly common in ponds is the taillight shiner. In my collecting trips in FL, I caught them in numerous ponds with heavy bass populations. They reach about 3" in size. Last, I'd see if I could source some lake chubsuckers, they would be the largest option of any of these species.

I am betting your gambusia heavily prey upon the eggs of your koi. If any of the eggs do hatch, they no doubt prey on the fry as will the HBG and others.

I do have access to wild shinners and sail fin mollies. There is nothing in the pond at this pond that could eat an adult shinner exept. I guess being slow moving the FHM would be eaten up by the BG? I am not familar with the tail light shinner, I will do some google reasearch on that one. I am really hoping the Gamusia population will be reduced. You would be suprized at the size of some of the females in the pond.

Any way ,Chub suckers and GSH are egg scatters just like the koi, my concern is if the gambusia numbers are not reduced then nothing will be able to have a successful hatching. My thought was that the FHM might be able to protect the eggs at least long enough to hatch by hiding the nest and guarding it from the gambusia.



Thanks for you input on the matter

I looked up the golden top minnow it is common around here

Almost all species scatter their eggs and don't protect them. In most bodies of water, even ones with piles of gambusia, those species are still able to reproduce with the right habitat. You may need to research how those species spawn and try to improve on what they need.

And yes, HBG are very aggressive and will readily eat the FHM in short order. About how many HBG would you say are in your pond?

Tarpon and snook when young are fast growers, I would think they should be putting some serious size on. Did you catch them in the wild and transfer them to your pond or were you able to source them from a local hatchery?

The koi and the 4 grass carp have removed 100% of the vegitation. I am thinking this could be the an issue for the survival of any eggs laid by egg scatters.

I have created good structure such as pallet cubes and triangles along with one large "busted up concrete" rubble pile.

I am making vegitaion cages this weekend to plant some eel grass and a couple patches of lily pads. I figured even if the carp eat anything that spreads out from the cages at least the pond would have a few osasis of vegitation "EEL Grass" for any young ones and or insects etc....

as for the lilly pads, I am hoping if I protect the roots and the young sprouts they will be able to survive. I have used plastic netting "fench" with holes just large enough "I hope" for the pads to make it through to the surface put keep the hungry mouths away from the base of the lilly pads.

I will upload some pictures of my underwater creations this weekend.

Has any one had success with vegitation cages to protect submerged palnts?

I am hoping this will help out over all in the pond and make it some what a more balanced eco system........

Not sure how they got in, assuming a bird or they swam up a creek on rain high water or some helpfull neighbor dumping bait from a fishing trip fishing.

Why don't you post your vegetation cage question in a separate thread under the aquatic vegetation sub forum. You will probably get more responses that way...

I am surprised with as far north as you are in FL, that the tarpon in particular aren't winter killing in such a small pond. Perhaps it's the extremely mild winter we're having. I had always believed tarpon were extremely sensitive to cold water. Snook are too, that cold winter we had a couple years back killed many in south FL.

Seems like you may want to remove some of your grass carp... I'd maybe keep one or two at most. 4 is an awful lot for a 1/4 acre pond.

I will post the pics on e they are done in that thread. We are real close to the coast and get the ocean effect. Also pond has flowing artisan well "72 degree water" at then skinny end so the hope is they will find a warm water sanctuary at that corner of the pond. Some how Snook and tarpon find thier way into ponds and end up land locked. I know of anther similar pond with 20 plus pound tarps and snook in it. They made it just fine through the harsh winters a few years back. They laid around the head water of the artisan water flowing in it.
Sense I discovered the tarpond and snook in it I have been reading online more about other fish that can tolerate fresh water. Seems, redfish, Mangrove snapper , flounder , jacks and a few others can too. I have considered keeping a few on a fishing trip and instead of killing them and eating them I might see how they survive in fresh water.

Artisan water flowing into the pond makes all the difference in the world! I suspect as your tarpon, snook, redfish and snappers get larger you are going to need to find a larger forage species with a higher reproductive rate. Not sure where the cut off line is for legal stocking of blue tilapia in FL, but they may end up being needed to feed those big mouths...

Im Hoping CNBG increase reproduction rate the Also shiners.
Blue tilapia are in just about every pond and stream in this area.

.

.

Very neat fish!

That's going to be an interesting pond!

Bobby you are breaking some serious new ground...at least in my experience. Does your BOW have high salinity or can Redfish, Snook and Tarpon exist in fresh water?

It is fresh water most people are not aware that alot of the fish in the estuaries around the coast can live just fine in fresh water. Like a striped Bass or Salmon. They can not reporuce but can thrive just fine fresh water. They are tropical to subtropical so are not real cold tolerant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euryhaline

Striped bass take some salt water for their habit. They excel in Lake Texoma.

Bobby, when you start stocking bull sharks in your pond then we know you've gotten carried away with euryhaline predators! HAHA

Southern Flounder
http://www.sms.si.edu/IRLSpec/Parali_lethos.htm

Mangrove / Grey Snapper
http://www.sms.si.edu/irlspec/Lutjan_griseu.htm

Spotted Seatrout
http://www.sms.si.edu/irlspec/Cynosc_nebulo.htm

In a quarter acre pond, except it to be able to support 25-30 pounds of predatory fish. Keep that in mind as some of the species you list have very high end sizes. Won't take many 5 pound tarpon to start causing issues. You may want to consider aeration or building a bigger pond!

The key to euryhaline fish doing well in freshwater or near freshwater is that the water is hard.

I have seen shows about bullsharks being caught way upriver in fresh water. I thought about it, but kinda hard to find little ones and might be a little dangerous for swimmers. Plus I probably would end up with a pond that only has one thing it, a fat soon to be hungry shark. LOL........

Yes, they've been caught as far up the Mississippi as Illinois!

The water is pretty hard. Heavy "hard water build" up on the Well pipe that flows into the pond. My pond is pretty loaded with the bream. I will try to get Shinners started as well as you mentioned. The pond I know of near me that has 4- 30 plus inche tarps (one 36 incher at least) and two nearly 30" snook is loaded down with BG and shinners. It is a really tiny pond. Actually that one seems like those big predators are not keeping up with the the BG. tons of stunted BG and large schools of shiners and of coarse lots of tilapia. When I would feed the BG pellets the tarps and snook would exsplode on them. Pretty cool to watch

If they start running out of food I might have to resort to adding bait fish, I can go cast netting for a day and get hundreds of fingerling mullet to add to supliment food also. but I am following you, Cant add to many big fish eaters in a little pond.

It has no aration, I did however raise up the outflow pipe of the well water a couple feet about the water line to allow it to splash for better airation.

You may want to consider aeration, I'd hate to see your hard work of growing those fish to quality size only to lose it all one hot day...

Me too, fountains work well to aerate, correct ? pond might be 8-10 feet at the deepest most is around 5-6 feet deep.

Fountains do not work as well as bottom diffusers.

I need to drink less coffee. I thought it said where do you get fatheads in the NFL? If that be the question, I have a long list.

While you may be crazy for other reasons, this is not it. I've been reading that every time I see it too.

I started out looking for a place to get FHM in NE FL and am still interested in finding a place to get them, a list would be greatly appreciated..............

I think the reason i was looking for them got every one side tracked, but that fine by me, its great to have any one interested in my pond antics.......

Any info on the FHM availabily would be greatlty appreciated.

FH are pretty easy to raise if you have the right setup.

Only company in FL I heard about (a long time ago) was breeding them for environmental assessments. (they get the long dollar for every life stage) A guy I knew in Holland, MI... Same thing, day in and day out. That is all he did! I have raised FH, and similar, like the Blackchin and Bluntnose in tanks, not an aquarium! And did well as far as the experiments and outcome.

It is a bit more involved than what I am saying right now, and takes careful planning and following a developed protocol.

6-8 hundred bucks burning a hole in your pocket, probably would net a couple hundred pounds per year if you used cheap plastic barrels. Tropicana probably has a bunch available.

If you really are set on FHM and none are available, do some research

BR

I think adding FHM to your pond, already stocked with predator fish, is not a wise investment nor the best way to reach your goal of providing forage. They will be extirpated within a matter of weeks if not sooner in a BOW that size.

You'd be far better selecting a forage fish that possesses excapability response and stands a chance of reproducing. Why not just get BG, Tilapia and Shiners going? Much better investment and you'll achieve your goals of providing an sustainable forage source.

I was hoping the only really big issue for the FHM at this point is the bream, pretty good population of them and some decent size becuase the snook I saw and the baby tarpon seemed small. Thanks for your feed back, you have reconfirmed my fears that they would be just all eaten up and not last. I was gonna just try it any way so you have saved me a little money. I am thinkig I will go with the Shinners instead of the FHM as I can get free ones. I can get large adult wild shinners, bigger than any thing can eat in the pond at this time. There is plenty to eat for them at the moment so by the time the shinners start reproducing the pond might need some extra forage.

I will also start adding the golden top minnow for diversity of food selection.

So the plan now is to have bream, Gambusia, shinners and golden top minnows as well as the tilapia .We rarely get a winter kill on them so they just keep on reproducing. Even the very small pond near me that has at least 6 , 10-30 pound tarpon and snook feeding on them is loaded with them. this is one heck of a discusion about FHM.... :-)

One thing to watch with the GSH. If they are in a BOW that has invasive plants, there's a good possibility of transferring those plants to your pond along with the GHS.

I relocated over 200 GSH between 6" and 9" to my pond, and had Eurasian Water Milfoil show up a year later. A year after that I was visited by a bunch of geese that I didn't chase away for a few weeks, and I think they brought even more of the stuff with them, either as pieces or in their poop.

I think the GSH had some milfoil seeds in their gut and pooped them into the pond. I didn't transfer any of the water from that BOW into my pond.

between the grass carp and the koi, plants do not stand much of a chance, I actually built plant cages in an attempt to even have a couple isolated patches of vegitaion. I am assuming they will eat or tear up just about any thing vegitative. They even elimiated the cat tails growing in one corner of the pond by eating or uprooting the roots.
I will try to not carry any water from that pond, I know the pond I am going to get them from is pretty bare as far as weeds, pretty much just a sand bowl.

Without vegetation you will have no reproduction from shiners, and survival of any offspring from any fish will stand close to zero chance of survival due to lack of cover/habitat.

You may need to consider thinning out your GC and Koi if your goal is to establish a self sustaining forage base. You will not have one without some kind of habitat whether it's vegetation or artificial [trees or pvc].

I have a multitude of Pallet fish structures. "Two" 6 sided cubes, "one" 4 tier pallet house ( about a foot between ech pallet ), "one" pallet trangle using 3 pallets, "two" stacks of 4 pallets just on top of each other and also "one" (nice sized) pile of busted up concrete rubble on the bottom. Lots of actual structure laid around on the bottom of the pond. Just no plants...Yet any way....Assuming my cages work. I have a few pics of the structure stuff, I will upload for viewing tonight when I am not "GOOFING OOF" on my work computer. :-)

Aquatic vegetation is a far better cover than pallets and concrete blocks for GSH spawning and cover. As I had recommended before, you may want to take out all but 1 grass carp from your pond...

Sounds like I should take out some grass carp, 4 total in the pond and they are hungry. Ill get the cages started with the plants in them and as I can get a couple GC out perhaps the eel grass and lilly pads will be able to be able to spread beyond the cages. If not than at least they will have some pockets of vegitation.

I really appreciate all the advice and suggestions regarding the FHM :-) and the pond in general. I will keep posted as I add more fish and how it is doing.

I'll be interested to hear how you progress!

Me too, great thread!

going after work to round up some wild GSH and I have about 10 dozen good size Mud Minnows ( Gulf Killi Fish ) and a hand full of sail fin mollies to add. I have been setting out the minnow trap in a mostly fresh, brackish creek right by the house.

Also, going to get the vegetation cages in the water and seeded with submerged plants and water lilles........

If I catch any thing Ill post a picture...

I will take a few pictures of the bream too, those things are hard to keep off the end of your line....

SOOO...I got a little over a dozen wild GSH from a local park, they look like they might actually be ready to spawn...Fat bellies....


Also got a few hundred nice sized mud minnows to add to the pond via the minnow trap...Have already done a few sets of stockings of the mud minnows to supplement the gambusia minnows all ready in the pond..




The pond I sourced from is loaded with RES too, must have thrown back three dozen of them...Might have something to do with the fact is has lots of clams in it..

Sounds like a fun place to go fishing... Let us know how your new stockings do.

I did get the mud minnows and shiners stocked and caught a bunch of the bream. They do seem a thin to me. They get feed but it is by hand and is some what inconstant. The pond is wall to wall with Gambusia minnows (Large Ones) seems they would be able to catch them but based on the fact that the gambusia population seems to be unchecked and the bream seem thin I would say they do not feed on them very well.

Some of your sunfish look like HBG, you can really see the CNBG genetics in them too... Pretty cool! The 2nd and 3rd from the bottom are the two I am particularly referring to. The second from the top and the bottom ones look like pure GSF to me.

Have you thought about thinning out some of them? In such a small pond, you may really have too many...

several differant types of sunfish in local ponds, doesnt suprise me the they might cross when stuck ina small pond together.

I'd begin removing every HBG and their subsequent generations that are under 6".

I am hoping the predators will be removing them for me.... ...

The 2nd picture shows why GSF are considered competition for LMB in regards to smaller prey species. Look at how big of a bait it was caught on!

Will take a big snook and even big reddish to eat 4" or even 3" GSF hybrids, give them some help and remove some. You'll need the room the removed biomass will clear up.

I've seen a couple like your first pic in my HBG pond. Due to the time frame involved they could not be F2 or F3 fish that were spawned in my pond, so they had to have come from the hatchery. Or, they were reciprocal crosses, which had to have come from the hatchery also.

They can make decent fish in their own right. I'll see if I can find a pic.

Here is one... I don't have a weight in my notes, but I see it was almost 9" long, and female.

Pretty fish......I am sure some of the ones in my pond would be more round and fat if they had better feed. natural or pellets. In your experiance are they good fish eaters? No shortage of gambusias in the pond, it is nearly infested with them. Nothing much elses to eat though and they all look thin. If they have crossed I bet the large mouth could be coming from warmouth, they are very comon around here.

My HBG prey heavily on minnows and YOY fish. I've watched them work the shallows like Bass on multiple occasions.

FHM or gambusia, Perhaps the gams being so top water oriented is a deterant. When I fish I catch tons of bream and they always look a little thin. Yet the surface is litterally swarming with big fat pregnant female GAMS.

I am sure bass and HBG and GSF all eat gambusia... However, gambusia are so numerous in extremely bass heavy ponds for a reason, they are very good at avoiding predation. I don't think they make very good prey for the most part. Now FHM, they disappear shortly after bass are stocking for a reason, because they are easy pickings.

Seems I need somthing in between, FHM will disapear and GAMS are a little too wiley..Hopefully the Killi fish will help and the GSH baies will be able to be eaten. Once I get teh sun fish numbers down it should help too I supose.

Yeah, I think removing a good number of your sunfish will really be a big help...

Some of the stucture I mentioned earlier in this thread

6 pallet Cube


4 pallet condo tower


load of rubble , corralled by pallets


Koi fish hanging aroud the pond

How many Koi you have in your pond?

Not sure,,,...
I would say 20 that are this size now...The ospry is constantly after them so I am sure they will be reduced slowly...I need to run string criss crossed a few time in the trees to interfer with its dive bombing path...

This thread started out about FHM but has morphed into something else so I figured I would give an update.

I got some adult wild shiners stocked, along with Sail Fin mollies and some Gulf Killi Fish (mud Minnows) . The eel Grass inside the protective cages seems to be starting to grow nicely too

I didnt get any one to ride with to get stocking photos

They go into your pond?

yep

I wonder if This redfish would be able to thin out some of the 3-5" bream in my pond ??.............LOL

Headed out to the pond this weekend, hope to see how the baitfish reproducing well. Gonna do a little casting to see if any of the in the pond will hit a lure. Will give update on any of the other baitfish status if I can see any of them.

Why don't you try setting a minnow trap and see if you can catch a few of the species you caught?

I casted a small rattle trap around, I caught a couple big bream, one Warmouth. I also Jumped two tarpon, one broke me off after three sky high leaps the other just spit the hook durning a 3 feet flipping jump. I saw the broke off fish jumping a few times later on trying to get my lure out. Hope it falls out and it can contue eating.

I never did get any direction on a source for Fathead Minnows near North Florida. If any one knows of a source any place somewhat near me please let me know.

Shongaloo fisheries has gams, maybe fhm too?

Bobby:

You could always call Andersons Minnows and have some shipped in.

Bobby, do you ever go to the Big O, the cr. minnows there are fatheads. Maybe you should check the bait shops around your area.

what the big O. , Orlando?

Lake Okeechobee is known as the Big O.

Clarification appreciated, I thought this was getting weird

LOL. I thought it was just me since I'm not from Florida. I have to admit, Kenc, I love the way you put a spin on words and sentences. Keep it up....it keeps us on our toes.

Nothing about spin on the Big O. crackers(native Floridians) has been calling Okeechobee for generations. Thinks for the compliment Fish, i enjoy reading your posts. Most of my stuff is mindless banter.