Hello everyone from Central Illinois! I am a village trustee in Central Illinois and among my responsibilites is the local pond. Our pond is 3 acres and was dredged out 20 years ago to 14 feet. Since it was not really done properly (no silt trap) it has since filled in to a max depth of 7 feet.

Now on to my situation. This last summer I noticed that we have alot of 1 to 3 inch HBG in our pond. We had a fishing derby last fall and I bet the kids caught two thousand literally! The pond is stock with decent sizes 2-6 pound catfish. Last fall the state put in 100 5-8 in LMB which obviously was not taking care of it. Three weeks ago I added in 300 LMB in the 5-8 inch category and 400 cc in the 8-10 inch range. I am hoping that these fish can help to get things back in control somewhat. In two years I am planning to have the pond dredged properly with a silt trap before the inlet. Sorry to be long winded with this but I wanted to give you a background. Will this new addition of fish help in getting things back in the right direction? Thanks in advance.

welcome to PB IL....get used to the acronyms

how do you know they are HBG?

are you sure the pond infill is silt and not muck accumulation? if muck, aeration might fix problem, if silt, then digging out is appropriate.

i'll let others here address your fish stocking questions..(i'd have probably dug first and started over.....but that's me).

Can you post a picture of one of the HBG? If you PM me I will post it for you. It seems somewhat unusual to have an overpopulation of HBG. Are you certain they're not green sunfish? Not doubting your ID skills but we need to make certain we're talking about the same thing.

Bruce

Thanks for your reply. I am sure that they are HBG because that is what was put in there four years ago...at least that is what they ordered four years ago. I am not sure if it is silt or muck, I am also looking to add an aerator and a fountain this spring. If it is muck, would this be partially reversable as far as the depth? I was told that this strain was only supposed to have a 15% reproduction rate. The fish supplier is through the county and they have been doing it for sometime. I guess that they could have slipped up though. I feel as if I was handed a mess with this pond. It is really cold tonight 17 degrees. It is supposed to warm up possibly next weekend 8 days away. If it does I will go down and try to catch one of the little snots and take a photo.

Oh yea also the the HBG if that is for sure what they are...are partially stunted. Some of them have larger eyes than what they should have for their bodies. I wanted to throw some Red ears in but was afraid that they would be eaten right away. I guess I will be able to start clean in a couple years but for now I want a decent fishing pond for the kids of the community! Once last note, about two months ago I caught about a 1.5 lb bass that had a full belly so I know that the few bass that were in there were eating some of the HBG.

It is normal for young 1-3 in. BG and HBG to have large eyes and to be a lot of them present. This is a 60 day old BG. Body condition is a better indicator on small BG of stunting.

I thing you have already taken the steps to control the situation. 400 bass and 400 CC in 3 acres should knock back a buncha small fish. Then, you gotta figure on LMB reproduction to increase the predator load. In about 2 years, or about the time you dredge, you may be looking for some forage to add or having a lot more fishing derbies.

I question whether your over supply is really all HBG offspring. They should be green sunfish and they usually only spawn annually. That type of over supply sounds like garden variety bluegills that someone may have added.

It very well could be true that someone added the BG. Being a community pond it is very hard to control what people may throw in at any given time. I caught a bullhead this summer and promptly removed him. I fish the area often and it was the first one that I have caught. The fish that were just added have been pellet fed. Unfortunately it is too cold for me to continue feeding. There is not alot of cover in the pond right now so the BG will have to swim from the shallows as the freeze takes place. I am sure as the go deeper they will be eaten.

Howdy IL,

Sounds like a manageable situation wrt the fish, with good advice already given. Please post pics of the sunfish, if possible, especially if there turn out to be different looking kinds present. What you know was stocked and what you were told were stocked may easily not be the only fish present. Helpful fishermen, local kids with aquarium releases, and alien fish abductors making return trips to Earth may have added something else. And we love to (try and) identify fish from pictures!

As to the Sediment buldup, perhaps the silt vs. muck (inorganic vs. organic) makeup can be estimated from the pond surroundings. Are there a large number of trees which drop leaves into it? Any highly prone-to-erosion areas in the watershed (plowed fields, construction sites)?

Would someone who knows more than me about northern ponds address the potential problems with high fish bio-mass in shallow ponds when it ices up and a large part of the pond is frozen to the bottom. Is this a winter fish kill in the making?

Longhorn -- the LMB stocking was a good plan. You've got to give the bass a few years to reach maturity, spawn, and start controlling the sunfish in a 3-acre pond. If you have the resources, or could talk the state into it, I would go with one more LMB stocking. I would try for 40/acre (120 total) of 8-12 inch LMB.

Ewest -- let's ask Longhorn the history of the pond. If the sunfish and bass have been in there for 4 years, then the winterkill risk must be somewhat low at his location? Anyone reading this from central Illinois? I assume that ice cover must not be too thick or last too long? Obviously, 7 feet of silt in what was a 14 foot deep pond is a problem situation.

No winter kills in at least the last 9 years. Really there are not alot of trees around and it does receive runoff from plowed fields. The sides are wrapped with rocks to reduce erosion. I will post some pics of the pond as well. Thus my thinking. The 7 foot finding was last fall I have now found out. We had a major drought last year, so I plan on taking a boat out this spring to get a more accurate number. Depending on the weather tomorrow, I may try to get down and catch some of the fish in question to snap some pics. The catfish have done very well in this pond for many years.

Firstly - I question the efficiency and percision of a dredging to 14 ft that occurred 20 yrs ago esp if it was done when the pond had water in it. Did Longhorn or anyone else measure the pond depths to produce a contour map after the dredging operation? 7 ft of accumulation is a whole lot of muck in 20 yrs (84in/20yr=4.2in per yr) but it is possible if lots of leaves and vegetation growth are deposited each year. Longhorn what is the typical annual weed-algae-tree leaf problem that gets deposited into the pond each year?

Secondly - Since it is a public pond there is undoubtedly a lot of greedy and unwise fish removal by anglers. Don't count on stocked fish to stay in the pond very long. Our local sportsmen club constantly has the pond raped by anglers-members. If this were not true a few bass 50-80 would be able to control the actual recruitment of Hy BG. Thus I as others highly suspect contamination from other more proflic sunfishes. I IL can keep the LMB in the pond long enough they should be able to get the small sunfish under control. IL - remember that a bass eats a sunfish about 1/3 the length of the bass. So if majority of your sufish problem is 4"-5" long then the size of bass you are stocking are too small to quickly reduce the overpopulation of "your" sunfish. Will the small bass stay in the pond long enough to grow to 13"-14" long?

Old catfish in a heavily fished pond can get conditioned to avoid most average anglers. Thus the larger ones may help in controlling small fish.

Thirdly - I agree with Dr Dave about the winter ice cover problem. Ice-snow cover in central IL should not be a big concern compared to the BOD (biological oxygen demand) problem.

Good point from Bill! I made an assumption, which is always foolish. I assumed that the expensive, advanced sizes of stocked LMB would be protected by a length limit. Longhorn -- do you have such a regulation? If not, I would recommend at least a 15 inch minimum length limit, and why not catch and release, at least for now? Also, there has to be some expectation of enforcement for a regulation to be successful. Will the local conservation officer/game warden be willing to help enforce the regulation?

I plan on ordering some signs prohibiting anything under 15 inches except for blugill to be taken from the pond. As far as the game warden I will see what I can do, however with the state cutting more and more off the budget it will be hard. The pond was dug out properly the last time. I know the guy who did it and he has dug many ponds in the area. He actually suggested to the village board many years ago to put in a silt trap and they would not. The pond was drained during the dead of winter when it was dug out. I am not sure if our police force could do anything with this as well. They help me with the fishing derby every year. Most of the sunfish are in the 1" to 3" range. How big can a regular sunfish get?

somebody's gonna have fun with this question.

IL, i know of green sunfish (GSF) ranging from 9 to 12 inches and well over 1lb, although GSF in yer area is likely not a popular choice. i'll concede the podium for others to report on maximum sizes for BG and RES.

It is pretty easy to get BG in the 6" to 8" range, and RES an inch or so bigger than that. I have even managed it myself. BG/RES in the 10" range takes a little more work, but I believe most PMs who want this as a goal can attain it. Maximum size for both species is around 12"-14"

BTW D.I.E.D.'s GSF are IMHO extraordinary and would have strained his creditability if not for the excellent photographic proof. As it is, we are in awe.

I plan on starting to feed them this spring which will hopefully allow the ones to large to eat to get some size. I also hope that it slows their eating a little so the fish are not all taken out before they can get some real size. While I do not think the pond gets fished real heavy, I do not know what goes on during the day while I am at work. There used to be alot of trees around the pond. Over the last six or seven years they have been replaced by smaller ones. Some of the fill in could be a result of leaves and debri. I have been addicted to fishing all of my life. I truly believe that I am having more fun trying to get this pond in shape than I ever have fishing. Is this common?

Around here's it's really common.

Here is a pic of what now I believe to be a standard BG?

IMG] http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q274/IllinoisLonghorn/IM000539.jpg[/IMG]

Try the pic of the pond again.

That fish is a purebred green sunfish.

Beautiful pond.

Thanks Bruce, we as a village have worked hard over the last few years to make the pond appealing to the eye. I do feel however that we need to add some kind of plants to help create a natural habitat, and help with water clarity. Just imagine an aerator and lighted fountain in the middle! The fish measured at 3.5 inches. I went down today and caught 11 catfish ranging from 18" to 10 3/4. I logged all the info and will continue to log as I have time to fish it. I am hopeful that by adding some water structures (trees and branches) and feeding that I will get some size to the fish.

One last pic of the pond.

Your attempt to manage the pond will be greatly facilitated by your presence here.

Every pond's best friend is a manager who cares to collect information in a scientific manner. You're doin' good buddy.

So Bruce, am I on the right track by adding the LMB and CC?

I'm not really the "big guy" when it comes to GS control. I think Theo, ewest, Bill Cody, DIED, Dave Davidson, Dave Willis and others are more qualified. Personally, I would add the LMB and go easy on the CC, but that's mostly because the guys whose ponds I manage almost always regret having more CC. I love big panfish, so I like high density predators like LMB.

Bruce what type fish are you showing? He does look like he has a tad bit of a attitude!

Everything I know about GSF control I know from reading, mostly Bob Lusk. Crowd the bass to beat down the GSF numbers, then introduce good BG stock for forage and throttle back on the bass numbers some. IIRC it's usually a 3-4 year process.

Like Bruce said, a lot of us have more BIG CC than we want. If they will be fed, decide how many CC you want to harvest over a two-three year period. Then stock half that number.

Thats good to know. Last fall the DNR added 150 bass, then I added 300. I should start seeing a decline in some of the BG population this spring. Can green sunfish come from crossing HBG and BG?

Its supposed to get up to almost 70 this week, I may take a vacation day and go do a little fishing.

GSF can not come from crossing BG and HBG. There is even a question if HBG can backcross with either parent species. IMO best guess is they can backcross. GSF are a species and BG are a species and HBG are a cross between the two. Over time certain traits (good or bad) can become more predominate through outbreeding depression or hybrid vigor. Over very long periods of time a distinct population can change so that its traits are closer to GSF or BG.

Someone tell me how the pond is overrun with pure GSF when the hatchery stocked it with HBG several years ago. No mention of stocking with GSF. I agree that the fish pictured has a high % of GSF genes.

Next thing you know we will be doing gill raker exams by pic . Heck why not.

Does anyone know if the Universities have GSF and BG genomes ided so that DNA tests can be done. I would think that at least some of the sequences have been as studies address that.

I know I've mentioned this before, but of all the ponds I've ever managed or assisted in managing, there is only one fish that occurs without record of stocking--and it's Mr. Green Sunfish. I've got documentation of at least a dozen instances.

Jeff Blaser from Nebraska Game and Parks Commission has told me that streams that don't flow full time still can have a few remnant individuals when ponds fill that migrate down to the new body of water. He also said that after a rain event these fish will migrate upstream and find a way into a body of water. Regardless, I've seen this over and over and over and over............


My very favorite pond to fish was constructed by the NRCS about 16 years ago and was never stocked with anything. I was given the job of creating a new fishery. I went to check out the pond and thought I saw some fish activity. I threw out a jig, and boom, I caught a green sunfish. I proceeded to catch dozens more. Unbelievable really.

I went back a little further through the records of the pond stocking. As I reported earlier in 2002 the pond was stocked with 200 HBG. I went back further to discover back in 1998 the pond was stocked with 500 BG! So kind of ironic that we get the GSF. If I were able to get some size to them I would not care that they were in there since they are a food source for the LMB and CC. Hopefully by feeding them I will get some size to them! FYI other stockings in 1998 included 100 crappie. I have never caught a crappie from that pond...not even one!

Does this pond have a stream inlet or outlet ?
It is a dug pond with a watershed. Any permanent water up or down stream? What is the stocking history and when was last time it was emptied ?

I think IL just made my point. There have been both HBG and BG stocked into a pond that has LMB to at least 1.5lbs (several years of LMB) , crappie , CC and who knows what else. My guess is that there are all types of lepomis combos and probably some BG in there. BG (80 M) are more prolific than GSF( 2-10 M) and so are LMB (15-20 M) and Crappie (up to180 M) . BG have been documented to be 279 times more prolific than HBG in Mich. ponds which equates to HBG fecundity in the few hundred per year range.The pond was emptied and dug out at some point so I assume started over. The point is we don't have enough solid info to say what the population status is other than there are small lepomis , LMB and CC. What is done is done. I would suggest an assessment by someone who can do a through job of determining what is there before I stocked any more fish. Let the LMB do there job if they can. Depending on lepomis density it is possible that LMB will not reproduce offspring which reach spawning size when confronted with extreme crowding of small lepomis. It is fun to try via pics but not an easy job in this case from 1 pic. But lets have fun trying . Take pics of every sunfish that looks different form the others and post them . If we can get several different looking ones we will know more.

The pond back in the 1800's was a water basin for the steam engines on the railways. I have talked to many old timers who were told that it was more or less always a marsh land that was never over 4 feet deep. Approx. 20 years ago the pond was dug out, however not right since there was no silt pond. The pond is fed by a stream that often dries completly up (basically run-off from field tiles). Last fall an assessment was done by the DNR here is what the report said.

"Bluegill-31 fish ranging in size from 2.4 to 5.1 inches in length. It is obvious that a loss of blugill had occured sometime in the last 2 years.

Green Sunfish 78 fish, ranging in size from 1.9 to 5.5 inches. These fish are native stream species that are not usually stocked into lakes or ponds because of competition with more valuable game fish species. Nothing was collected that was of fishable size.

Hybrid green sunfish bluegill-10 fish ranging in size from 2.7 inches to 4.7 inches in length. These fish are created by green sunfish and bluegill spawning together under stressful situations. Once again no fish were collected that were of catchable size.

Blutnose minnow-16 fish 2-2.5 inches in length

Channel catfish 4 fish ranging from 20-24 inches length. These fish were somehow able to survive past stressful conditions in the pond.

After our sample, I was able to obtain 150-4" bass and stock in the pond as a stop-gap measure to get some predators back into your water."


While I appreciate the report, I see one big error in it. He shocked the pond to get these readings. This summer I caught over 30 cc in this pond that ranged from 19-26" in length. One more thing to keep in mind is that we had a major drought last summer and our pond level was down. Sorry I did not post this earlier I just became aware that this report was done.

What about the LMB history ? Do you think that one of the 4 in. LMB you put in one year ago grew to 1.5 lbs in a year. Any history of LMB prior to last year?

A shock survey only surveys about 10% of the fish often much less than that. There could easily be other sizes and types of fish not reflected on the survey. It is a good survey indicator but in no way tells the whole pond story. It is one good tool but just a tool not an answer.

That report helps a lot though for purposes of suggestions. Lets see what advice others have with that info. Do you think that the stream has water/pools year round or runs from or into other ponds/lakes where GSF could swim to your pond now if water was up or do you think they have been their for many years? It is important to know if they can be managed based on what's there or can more come from another location.

Thanks for your responses thus far. Bass have been stocked in the pond with both the 1998 stock and the 2002 stock. I believe the number was 100 in 1998 and 200 in 2002. Then with the recent stockings. Not sure what may be the issue here but I have not personally caught alot of LMB out of the pond. I must admit that most of my fishings in this pond were with my children though and I did not concentrate on them. The stream that flows into the pond does not touch another body of water prior to its entrance to the pond. It does quite often dry up and there is no standing water within it. I have been told that the GSF can be brought in by something as simple as eggs on a ducks foot when they fly from water to water. Either case, I know that it was either introduced by someone other than the village or brought in by wildlife. The latter being my best guess. Sometimes it seems nature finds a way to make things happen that we do not always understand. Just got the go ahead tonight at our board meeting to bring the rep in for the fountains and aerators. We will be going by his suggestions. Through talking with individuals in this forum and out I believe that the oxygen introduction could remove some of our fill in muck at the bottom of the pond.

Oh and I forgot to post that about a month ago I caught about a 2 lb LMB in the pond. The bass had a big full belly on it. I told the fish good boy and told him to go back to work as I returned him to the pond.

Got warm today so I took a vacation day and spent the day fishin the pond. I was very surprised to catch 6 14" LMB. Could these bass be the same that were added last fall at 4"? One thing is for sure they have enough small sunfish to keep them growing. It just seems like alot of growth in one year! Anyone else every see this?

Very likey those 14" LMB were two or three years post stocking. Since LMB can get conditoned to be hook smart it might be a good idea to regularly fish the pond and catch and release the LMB. This will make them harder for others as "fish hawks" to catch and remove your valuable and prized predators. If you want to read more about hook smart fish use the SEARCH feature to scan the old posts.

Thanks Bill, The most recent prior to last years stocking was in 2002. I do not believe the fish have been spawing in this pond due to lack of proper spawning bed areas. Perhaps someone added some of these LMB in the last two years. That seems to be the more likely. However when the DNR shocked the pond last fall he found NO LMB at all. So I am confused on this! I have fished that pond every year and have never caught a LMB prior to this year. Today I caught the bigger ones and a bunch of the recently stocked.

Went fishing last Thursday, it was a beautiful day. I caught 5 13-15" LMB. I was amazed to find this after the DNR study last fall. I did not catch any of the BG or SF since they would not bite. Perhaps they are all running for their lives with the recent LMB introductions.

We are adding a display aerator to the pond this fall. The guy who is selling it to us is a retired DNR employee. I asked him how they were getting in to the pond. He told me the myth of birds carrying them in is not possible. He told me that they are swimming upstream as someone said earlier. He told me that he has seen them do it. So it appears that I will never completly rid the pond of them, even after we dredge it. All I can do is get them under control then add the HBG in big numbers to get going in the right direction. Thanks for all of your help!

Okay folks with the now decent size of LMB stock...how long would one guess that I could cut down the GSF to a number that would allow me to introduce BG and HBG once again? Am I looking at a 4 or 5 year wait to get the numbers under control?

Illinois Longhorn, I would continue to stock adult size LMB. With lots of stunted GSF it's not very likely that the your LMB will have very good recruictment with the absence of a lot dense weeds or cover to hide in. Your LMB fry will simple not survive the GSF predation very well. This could be a good thing if your goal is to have a trophy bass fishery, with GSF limiting LMB numbers the remaining ones should grow fast and have excellent wr's. I have seen a similar situtation at private community lake here in Lincoln that has tons of GSF. One other thing you could do is to also stock adult BG too. I will defer to others on the actual stocking rates.

The LMB will control the numbers. BG (80M) are much more productive than GSF (2-10M) and will out produce them. The 2 species tend to segregate at spawning. Depending on your goal there may be no reason to wait.

If you are trying to keep clean genetics (pure fish) a very difficult job. However if what you want are a higher % of the fish that look and grow more like BG then stock adult BG ( pre- spawn male and female) at least 3 weeks before spawning time. No need to stock HBG (BG X GSF ) as you will get some anyway with as many GSF and BG as are there. The key will be the productivity of the pond and its ability to grow more lepomis ( BG and GSF are both lepomis) than are there now (a carrying capacity question). If you will be feeding them you should be ok subject to water quality.

Why not start trapping some of the GSF and removing them now. Can also seine and sort to reduce the GSF numbers.

I thought about trapping some....however I did not add any fatheads this fall. My fear is that if I trap too many I may be taking out too many thus starving my LMB! It is pretty cold here right now...we actually had some snow last night or I would try to find a bait shop to grab some fatheads for the pond. Man I wish it was spring! Perhaps we could just skip winter this year!

Is this another GSF? The larger mouth makes me think it is. I will keep trying to catch them to see if there are any BG left! Do the orange-yellow fins on fish tend to lean more towards BG than GSF? Just looking for some signs to look out for.

It looks more GSF than anything else although lower fins do not have well defined whitish or cream colored outer rims, nor does it have well defined dorsal and anal fin spots....so could be HBG. Also emerald mottlings on side of face are not well developed but the pic is a little rough.

other votes?

Definitely not a purebred bluegill IllLong. You won't find that big, yellow outer border on bluegill fins.

With several generations of GSF (?) , HBG and BG in the pond it is no telling what it is or what %. We need to have a few classes in gill raker examination. What size is the fish? It does have some (goodly %) GSF genes for sure. It is not a pure BG.

The Nov 18th photo by IL longhorn is of a hybrid BG but which generation is anyones guess- maybe F1 or F2, F3??

Ill-Horn, what's the length on that fish?

This last fish was just at 4 3/4 inches. It looked different somewhat from the previous fish somewhat by its markings and seemed to be less elongated for its size as well. Sorry for the poorer quality...I shrunk the file size so our friends on dial-up would be able to view it faster. Perhaps I shrunk it a little too much.

ILL - don't shrink the fish - crop it to show desired characteristic, maintain maximum resolution and size to 800x600 window.

Works for me and I'm on dial-up.....

See example: http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=003569

I wish the fish in your pics came from our pond!

George - my - you are creative. Great advice.