Need some more advice. Original plan was BG/RES/YP/SMB in my new .7 acre pond. I put in 50 RES 3" , 50 BG 3", 30 BG 4-7" and FHM in early June. I added 25 YP 5-8" in July. I was going to add SMB 3-4" this fall. Goal is YP and SMB for the table, low maintenance as possible.
A buddy called me in early September - had some more YP - did I want them? I said yes go ahead and put them in but count and measure them (I was not home).
Turned out there were 112 fish from 5 to 9" heavy on the 8 and 9". Oops.
So the question is did I put in too many YP? I am thinking if I put in small SMB now they will all get eaten.
Could I just wait and see what happens with the YP as the dominant predator? I am concerned that the YP will not be able to keep the BG in check by themselves.
If I do have a problem it won't be until next year. But would I be better off trying to locate some larger SMB and get them in there now? If so how big? I am thinking they would need to be at least 6" to survive.
Would adding SMB next year be just as effective?
HSB might be easier to obtain. Thoughts?
Sounds like it's time to do a little ice fishing. I think a nine inch YP may be the best table fare ever invented. I'd harvest some of those new fish, and start putting harvest pressure on female bluegill next spring. My ponds are similar size so I don't think you have too much to worry about. There is a very good chance that you might have some YP reproduction next spring, so I'm sure that's where your concern comes in. Will you be feeding your fish? If so, then your YP will probably subsist on pellets and YOY bluegill. An 8-9 inch YP doesn't have a very big mouth so if you stock HSB or SMB that are bigger than that mouth I think a pellet fed YP won't harass them too much, then these predators will survive to, in turn, pressure any YOY YP. I'd be careful about waiting too long to introduce a predator because your YP could get out of hand. IIRC, the YP have the potential to become stunted. (I think BCody has made mention of this at least once. Somebody should know the relationship between perch mouth size and prey size because my YP mouths are tiny. I personally think that SMB will be a better predator on YP than HSB would be. HSB are kind of casual predators. An individual attack by an HSB is a vicious thing, but as a whole, HSB don't exert a lot of pressure on bluegill, or I assume yellow perch, like LMB or SMB would.
YP do overpopulate and cause problems. They will pressure BG yoy and YP yoy. BG over 3 in. will also pressure YP yoy. I would do as Bruce suggested plus put in a few adult SMB . You may well have to many adult YP able to spawn next spring. My guess (but not sure) is that the June 8 in. and Sept. 8-9 in. YP will spawn next spring. Will check on that.
All the YP will be capable of spawning April 2007. Assuming the YP came from a hatchery, then smaller YP 5"-7" were mostly males and larger ones 7"-9" were mostly females. If they were from a mixed wild population then youprobably got close to a 50:50 male female ratio. If from a hatchery removing the larger perch between now and spring will result in lowering the male to female ratio which could be good or bad - depending. I don't think you have too many YP for an ititial stocking. Fatheads from earlier stocking should be common to abaundant.
Next steps will depend on if YP were pellet trained and if they were eating pellets this fall. Non pellet eating YP will not likely return in a large pecentage to eating pellets. Non-pellet eating YP as adults are diffciult to train to eat pellets. Non-pellet eating YP will in themselves be predators on YOY fish because the BG and RES have very likely depleated or greatly reduced the invertebrate numbers thus forcing YP to be more piscivorous. My experience says that the size of YP that you have, will not put heavy predation pressure on a fall stocking of fingerling SMB at 3"-4" unless the minnow numbers are quite low. Fatheads overall will be much more abundant and easier to catch for YP than SMB. If you have ample fatheads then almost all SMB will face low predatory pressure untill the fathead numbers are low. By then hopefully the fingerling SMB will be a little larger and adapted to your pond setting. To be conservative you might want to stock 10%-15% more SMB numbers and then thin them if necessary when they are 8"-10" long and BG,RES and YP recruitment is too low. Expect to see fatheads dissappear in 2007. I recommmend a fall stocking of SMB if you have YOY minnows. If fathead numbers are relatively low then stock 10-30 lbs of fatheads with the SMB fingerlings. Locating SMB in spring can be quite difficult, stock now while they are readily available.
As previously mentioned, SMB will probably control BG and RES better than HSB. Always keep a close watch on the BG-RES numbers (2"-3") and manual thinning may be necessary esp one or two yrs after a poor SMB hatch. Do not harvest SMB until you notice recruitment of BG is lacking. Assuming forage fish densities are fairly equal SMB will forage on YP and minnows before BG or RES.
Question -- with 130+- BG/RES and 137 +- YP in a .7 acre pond which will spawn in the spring with no predator fish capable of eating them will they overpopulate the pond? While there may be enough adult YP , BG/RES and small SMB to put a dent in next springs yoy , if you add in FH and pellets I don't know. A tricky balance question. I would watch it closely as I would not want to be to far behind the forage curve with 2 populations of forage fish with known tendencies to overpopulate and stunt. The good part is the initial predators should have plenty to eat and it should be easy enough to remedy the problem in a pond that size.
As an addendum to Bill COdy's post:
Given that FHM are pretty cheap and SMB are relatively expensive, perhaps it would be a good idea to do a sacrificial stocking of Fatheads just ahead of adding any fingerling SMB at this time.
ewest - note that I mentioned in the post above - Always keep a close watch on the BG-RES numbers (2"-3") and manual thinning may be necessary. Manual thinning could include periodic seining the beach area or trapping. Small BG & YP readily enter wire mesh fish traps. Another idea to reduce numbers of YOY nest spawners is after a first nest spawn or the earliest BG spawn cycle periodically drag a wide pond rake through the beach area to reduce the number of successful BG-RES nests. Raking could also be performed on only a portion of the beach area to reduce the number of successful nests. If tree brush limbs are placed in several of the shore line areas (6"-24" deep) along the steep pond sides in late March YP eggs can be harvested daily and not allowed to hatch. Brush can then be removed in late April-May when YP are done spawning. This will dramatically reduce the numbers of YOY perch for that year. Trapping and seining can control the remaining YOY. There is a guy near me with a 0.5 ac pond that practically decimated his YP population by continuously trapping the YOY perch and harvesting the adults.
AATW may want to stock two sizes of SMB - fingerlings and subadults in the 5"-8" range. The problem is that 5"-8" SMB are very difficult to locate.
NOTE: To other new pond owners thinking of using the BG, RES, and YP combination, I personally would not add BG until the predators are established. One can stock RES with YP but cut back on the RES numbers. Add more RES later if necessary. It is much easier to add fish than remove them when you have too many fish. Since YP are a slender bodied fish it is very rare for them to become overabundant and stunted if predator numbers are adequate. The usual exception is when the pond has too much rooted vegetation and young YP have too many places to hide and predators cannot easily locate small YP.
The YP are all wild from Pymantuning Lake not too far from here. I did not plan on pellet feeding. I have a "maybe" line on some fingerling SMB but no source as of yet for anything larger. If I can get the smallies I will also get some more FHM. I have not seen many FHM since I put them in - I was wondering if the BG cleaned up on them already? The biggest BG that went in was 7-8". I caught one in August that was over 10".
Would 100 fingerling smallmouth be about right? along with 10lb of FHM just to keep the perch off the smallies?
No doubt I will be "behind the forage curve" for a couple of years. Hopefully the larger YP will help keep some control of both the panfish and the additional YP. There is a bit of brush and logs along with rocks and plants. I will watch for YP ribbons and BG nests in the beach and see if I can be an additional control.
OH yeah - I will also harvest some of the larger YP as Brucd suggested. I have tried tossing in some pellets (TSC) but the YP have shown no interest. The BG eat some but are not really very interested in the pellets either. Often the swim right up to a pellet and decide not to take it. Other times they take it and spit it out.
My back up plan (next year) would be to add some LMB but I would prefer not too - rather have the SMB. I have 4 LMB in my small pond that are around 10-12" last I saw one 2 months ago. How hard is it to determine the sex of LMB? I could put in either only male or only female if I was very confident of my ability to sex them.
Asleep - existing brush is probably too deep and inaccessable for removing YP egg strands. Temporary or removeable brush makes eggs easier to see and egg removal much easier. Fenders Fish Hatchery south of you near Charm usu has a few fingerling SMB in late fall: now to early Nov. Call for details.
Wild YP will be very difficult to ever get to eat pellets so count on them eating a fair amount of smaller fish. Your existing batch of YP and MAYBE to a small extent the larger BG probably ate a lot of the FHM. I would add 20 lbs of FHM - maybe 10 lbs early and 10 lbs when SMB are added. 10LBS of FHM will not last long with 137 adult YP. Getting the proper harvest rate of larger YP will be tricky. This will depend on how well the SMB are recruiting individuals each year.
Sexing LMB for the novice without training is difficult. Best way for a novice is to catch the LMB during spawn season and obvious presence of eggs or milt indicates sex.
Your problems of YP and RES will not be great in several years. Numbers of BG could be another story. I predict that any offspring from LMB will eventually result in them being the dominat predator. If you get offspring from LMB and unless you carefully manipulate the fishery, I predict in 6-10 yrs you will have an essentially BG-LMB pond. In my experiences perch do not "THRIVE" in SMALL, weed sparse, ponds for the long term with reproducing LMB unless the fishery is carefully manipulated.
Bill thanks for the comments and I agree with them and am stressing the "BALANCE" part of them. BTW the pond AATW is talking about has no LMB. The LMB are in his other pond.
AATW I would do what Bill has described. I would not put the LMB in , if at all, for a couple years. I think you can work through this without them and have a nice SMB/YP/BG/RES pond . You may need to add some FH yearly and work on keeping it in balance but that should be doable.
I edited Asleep At the Wheel's title of this "thread" to include - yellow perch instead of just perch. Southern pondowners often refer to sunfish types as perch. I thought adding detail to the title would save some confusion.
Ewest - okay on AATW's 4 LMB I fixed my post immediately above with LMB in it.
Bill I called the fish farm near Charm & New Bedford OH - he has 50 customers waiting for SMB including me. He said they are very scarce in the "mideast". I tried calling Zetts in Pa. after 5 pm - no answer. The place in Western NY you suggested I call got flushed out by the big rains this past summer and were still in recovery mode. Anybody have any source of SMB this month?
Scott:
You can try
Jones Fish down Cincinnati way. I know Greg Grimes checked with them last month about SMB for a customer of his in (Indiana?); he thought they were pricey but I don't think availability was a problem.
Try Zett's during normal business hours. When I've called, it seems more like your calling a household vs. calling a business. I want to say that they are in Drifting, PA., and the number should have an 814 area code. I have the number in an old date book if you need it.
I never did end up ordering from them as my fish guy was able to come up with some smallies from another source. I don't think that other source is still viable.
Also do not forget to try Bryon Bezdek of Aquatic Management at Lisbon OH near you. 330-227-3242. If you are lucky Byron may have a few SMB this fall. SMB can get difficult to locate thus the higher price. If SMB are hard to find this fall what are your chances to find some SMB in the spring - scarse as "hens teeth".
I just spoke to Byron. His smallies are all gone for this year. His next batch should be available in Fall '07. From what I understood, he spawns them and grows them in his own pond. They are usually around 4" long when he sells them which is really pretty good.
Advice needed quick. I have located a source for some smallies and now need to put the order together. To make the minimum for free delivery I need to order $150 which is not hard to do.
They have SMB in two sizes: 3-4" for $3.95 and 5-8" for $8.50. I was thinking 10 of each plus 10 lb. of FHM ($82.50).
Reasoning being I am confident the bigger ones will be too large for the up to 10" yellow perch to eat. I would like to have another class to follow if possible and I am thinking the FHM will give the smaller ones a chance. I do have some structure - brush, rocks, plants, logs to hide in. Also I am hoping 10 of each will make sure I have some of both sexes so I get recruitment from the SMB.
Lastly I thought I might also get some HSB (8-10") to help hold down the panfish and an occasional "big fight" while fishing down the road. I was thinking of maybe 4 to 6.
Let me know if I am on the right track and the numbers are ok or need adjusted.
I think I would add 20 - 25 lbs of FH , hold off on the HSB till next fall and add a few more of each size SMB. If there are extra $s 4-6 HSB would be ok but for now better spent on SMB up to 20 of each and FH.
Asleep, Ouch on those SMB prices!!!! When I got my 3-5" fish about 1.5 years ago, they were $1.25 - $1.50 each. Did the gas prices hit the fish business that hard as well????
Here is where I went.
General Page:
http://www.fingerlakesaquaculture.com/Index.html Price Page:
http://www.fingerlakesaquaculture.com/2005PriceList.html He does ship via UPS and others. I picked mine up but never had a problem with any of them.
Thanks ewest, I am ordering 20, 20, 20# for now. HSB can come next trip.
Eric - I guess it is supply and demand. I called fingerlakesquaculture and had to leave a recorded message. Thanks for the connection - I will wait until tomorrow to order just in case. Appreciate you looking out for me.
No Prob Asleep!! I wish you the best of luck!! I was just taken aback a bit by the prices. If you ever need any other fish the person I listed above was great and did not try to see me anything more than what I wanted or needed. And the I never lost a one of them. All went in healthy and have grown out tons!!!
Asleep is probably getting his fish from Jones Fish Hatchery - Newtown OH. They have a policy of free delivery with a $150 order. Considering delivery is included and SMB are pretty scarse this fall, esp those larger than 5" the price is high but if fish survive then money was well spent. One always pays a premium for SMB. I think with fatheads present the 3"-4" SMB will survive okay. I think the 10" YP will mostly target the fish in the 2"-2.5" size range. Since Asleep in June put in 30 BG in the 4"-7" range, he should also have some YOY BG to help as forage and take even more predatory pressure off the 3"-4" SMB.
Asleep - If it was me I would reduce the FHM by approx 5-10 lbs and in their place get approx 5-10 lbs of golden shiners from Jones FH. They will do good as long term forage for YP and SMB.
You've been watching "Guess the Hatchery with Bill Cody"! Today's contestant, Asleep at the Wheel, won valuable information from Bill himself, as well as a copy of the "Guess the Hatchery" game home edition.
Plan on buying fish in the near future and want to play? Just post your pond size and location, plus the types, sizes, and numbers of fish you plan to stock, in order to enter.
Employees of Pond Boss Magazine and the 1,673 fish hatcheries and dealers which Bill can correctly identify from esoteric information, are ineligible to play.
But thanks for watching!
Theo yer killing me. Yes Bill it is Jones. I did not get a phone call last night from FingerLakes (his recorded message said he would call back between 7 & 9 PM). And you are right - the free delivery makes a big difference. Delivery fee without the minimum purchase is $75 which itself is quite reasonable. For me to get together a rig with tank and oxygen would be .. well you know Huge.
Thanks Theo for suggesting I check with Jones - there are no SMB listed on their website so I figured wrongly they would not have any.
Thanks Bill again for sharing your knowledge. I will make the adjustment to add the GS.
I have found that most hatchery's websites are not truly up to date.
If you want the prized fish, you've got to let your fingers do the walking.
Also, I've found that for whatever reason, you don't get a lot of call backs from the hatcheries. You've got to stay on them and be ready to lay your money down.
I also wouldn't consider sending an email as having effectively communicated with them.
As ML once said, there's no luck about it.
Update - I put in my fish order with Jones. They had everthing I needed. Only slight hitch - they are up to 6-8 weeks out on delivery, and "if it gets too cold we will have to hold your order until spring".
I told I "REALLY wanted to get them in this year". He just said "we'll see". I hope I get lucky and get them in this fall.
I don't like the way Bruce Condello's RES are looking at me.
Hey guys just happened to be reading this thread so I thought I would throw this out there. I made a trip to Fenders (Saturday 11/4) to pick up largemouth, black crappies, fatheads and also ended up bringing home 20 smallmouths. They were 3-4" and ran $3.00 a piece. They made the 2 hour trip home and swam happily away in my pond!!
I was able to get SMB fingerlings and the 5-8" - got 20 of each plus some FHM. They will be delivered tomorrow afternoon.
I was able to catch 30 of the YP - I transferred them to the small pond. Hopefully that will take some pressure of the SMB fingerlings. Also there are "lots" of 1.5" fish in the pond. I don't think they are FHM as thery are not swarming. I think they are BG. All the YP I pulled out looked very healthy but I did not weigh them. I think the base is established and doing well for now. We will see how everyting is come spring. Water temp 42.
AATW - One good thing about yellow perch is they tend to be more active and agile than BG, FHM, and SMB in cold water (39F). There is not much water temperature drop remaining for your pond before the winter, stable, cold, water period sets in at 39F. This should allow the YP to HOPEFULLY reduce some of the number of smallest BG between now and when water gets back into the 50F range. Do you have a wire mesh minnow trap abt $10 ea(NON-vinyl coated and with darkened-painted mesh)? Try setting a trap to catch some of the small 1.5" fish to VERIFY the length and species of the 1.5" fish. Compare the catch in the trap with what you catch in spring of 2007. You should have some of these traps to periodically monitor & manage the relative abundance of small fish that will occur each year in your pond.
I looked at my data and it takes at least a 6" YP and a 5.5" SMB to get a 1.5"-1.7" BG in their mouth. I think YP and SMB tend to "prefer" eating fish that are a size that is less than the maximum size that fits into their mouth. I think 8"-10" YP and 6"-8" SMB will eat a fair number of the 1"-1.5" BG esp if the fathead minnow numbers are low. My experiences show the FHM will be the first preferred food for both the YP and SMB.
More time will provide more information about this story of raising fish in your pond.
Thanks Bill. I will get some minnow traps and do as you advised.
The Fish Truck came yesterday from Jones Fish and I put into the big pond the following:
20 SMB 3-5"
20 SMB 5-8"
4 HSB 8-10"
10 lb + FHM
10 lb+ GS
I was the last stop for the truck and got what he had left for the FHM and GS - there was a lot more than 10 " of eash - maybe 20# of FHM. That made me very happy. The SMB looked great! The weather was relatively warm - about 55F - and the fish all seemed to do well as they were released. I have to give high marks to Jones Fish - 2 deliveries both as agreed or better - all healthy fish.
Hi all. I have been MIA for a while but wanted to report back. The big pond is almost full - within 6" of overflow. The SMB and YP seem to be doing well. The SMB went into the pond in the fall of 2007. I caught 2 last weekend on rubber crawfish - each about 10".
I have observed one SMB male gaurding a nest so I am hopeful for recruitment. I also caught a lot of YP on worms - several in the 9-10" range. Fish fry soon. Also caught one RES. I did observe YP ribbons earlier as well.
I moved a couple dozen of the 5-7" BG to the small pond where there is one nice LMB guarding his nest. I am thinking reduce the BG population somewhat and the LMB has some family there that hopefully will welcome the additional BG. Lots of 3-5" LMB in small pond. I also see groups of 5-6" SMB cruising around in the large pond.
So all in all the advice I was lucky enough to get here on PB has played out well so far. My SMB and YP seem to be healthy and there are plenty of BG in several sizes. I am not sure about the RES - haven't grown much in 1 1/2 years. Competition from the BG and YP? I put in 4 HSB 8-10" also 1 1/2 years ago - I have not seen them since. Probably need to try some different lures?
Best thing - we have a red-shouldered hawk nest 50' from the house! I am amazed they seem to be tolerating me and the lawnmower. They circle overhead and cry out when I walk below the nest but so far I think they will successfully hatch the eggs.
Good news. Thanks for the report. Don't be a stranger. For those who don't recall this is one of the better in detail northern pond discussion.
Hi Asleep and welcome back. It's good to hear you pond is doing well. Very cool about the hawk nest. I hope you're taking photos!
Thanks Jeff and Eric. There is not much yet to take photos of - we occasionally see the hawks coming and going from the nest but can't see down into it. No babies yet. The rest of the time we see them circling up high or perched too far away to take a good shot. Wife observed yesterday we haven't seen much of the red squirrels.
I know what you mean Asleep. The only time I saw an Eagle at my place he (she?) was flying so high I couldn't get a photo of it.
