I'm sooooo glad I found this forum! Thank you in advance for your advice!

About 17 years ago we put in a 1/2 acre pond at our place where we camp. It's a 4 1/2 acre cluster of scrub woods that we own - in the country. Our own private camping place. The pond is kidney shaped with the center and one end 16 feet deep and the other end sloping from 0 to 6 feet. There is a quick sloping dropoff to the 16 foot area. Our intention was to use the pond for swimming and fishing.

When we stocked the pond we only put in "hybrid" blue gill. The people we bought the fish from told us they would not reproduce much and would be great for our small pond. They either didn't know what they were doing, or sold us the wrong fish. We put in 100 2-3 inch fish. Within a couple of years it was obvious that they were reproducing like crazy.

For the last 5-7 years the blue gill have become so agressive that we have to feed the fish before we can swim. They bite us constantly - especially the 3-5 inchers. They think any spot on our bodies is food - like moles, freckles, scars, etc. We feed them floating fish food we buy at the farm co-op, bread, oatmeal, - anything they will eat.

I'll admit, we haven't done a good job of harvesting the fish. We don't fish often enough. Three years ago a friend put 3 very big large mouth bass in the pond to help us. We found one of them floating dead the next week, with a hole all the way through the middle of it. We think a herron or another bird of that type might have killed it but couldn't carry it away. We have never seen the other two again. We don't know if they are there or not.

I have more time this summer to work on the population in this pond. I can fish them, net them, etc. I would like some advice on this and also on how to dispose of the fish that are too small to eat.

I know the fish are healthy, I caught 25 yesterday - mostly 3-4 inches but a couple 5 inchers. They all are strong and beautiful. I have 3 aquariums at home so I know what to look for in visible parasites, skin and fin condition, etc. These fish were perfect.

Sorry for the long post, I just wanted to give as much info as I thought was necessary.

YOur best option of reducing numbers is to stock largemouth bass. I suggest 25-30 10 inches are larger. These are a size that will immediately start reducing the numbers. They will grow like crazy. In a few years after bass reporduction you might have to take a few bass out. This is much easier than trying to harvest enough bluegill. Also it will result in fun fishign for bass and increased size on bluegill from reducded competetion.

Do you have any information on where I can get the bass. I'm in northeastern Indiana.

Welcome to the forum Stormy, and I'll apologize up front, but I am LOL at the visual of jumping in pond and being preyed upon by a million hungry sunfish, ouch, ouch, ouch, ouch....oooh, that hurt, ouch...... sure hope no one went skinny dippin (or chunky dunkin)

there seem to be a lot of questions about the reproduction capabilities and quality of offspring of hybrid blue gill (HBG),

Stormy, there are several here on forum who would be interested to know what kind of supposed hybrid you were sold....do you remember what the supplier said they were? green sunfish crossed w/ blue gill (GSF/BG) for example.

Stormy welcome to the PB forum. You should contact Cecil Baird a long time forum member who is in your area. If he does not have any for sale he will know who might have some.

jjbaird@ligtel.com
4700 N HWY 33, Ligonier, IN
http://www.ligtel.com/~jjbaird/pprf/pprf.htm

He may see this and reply.

Welcome Stormy!

Let me fish that pond for a weekend. Problem solved!

Stormy:

Welcome.

BG are often noted for nipping swimmers and IIRC GSF can be even worse; it is not surprising the descendants of what were probably GSFxBG hybrids are nippers. I bet the problem is made much worse by the apparent overpopulate and resulting shortage of food.

I have a 1 acre pond that was stocked with (among other species) BG, HBG, and "too many" LMB; we swim in the pond several times each Summer and have never experienced nipping. Reducing the HBG numbers as Greg suggests should provide more food for fewer fish. My bet would be this reduces or possibly eliminates the nipping you experience while swimming. After the HBG number are reduced, you may want to stock regular BG which should help reduce the GSF influence in your pond; that might also help reduce nipping.

I would use the fish as fertilizer. Reproduction or ofspring from hybrid bluegill typically do not grow as big as either of the hybrid parents. This growth problem often gets worse with new generations and back crossing among individuals increase.

Stormy,

I don't have anything under 2 lbs. right now and at $12.00 per pound I don't think you want to go that route.

Here's three possible scenarios:

1.) If you don't have any predator fish in the pond get some 5 to 7 inch largemouths from the Laggis Fish farm in Gobles Michigan next spring. You can bring them back to Indiana in oxygen bags and they will be fine. It's only about 2 hours from me here near Ligonier.

269-628-2056
269-624-6215
08988 35th Stree

Gobles, MI / USA

2.) If you do have predator fish in the pond get the same fish and put them in a floating cage and feed them until fall when they will be 10 to 12 inches. I do this most years and would be glad to answer any questions you may have. In fact if you have a pickup truck I can lend you one of my 7 feet by 7 feet cages.

3.) Another option is calling the following gentleman and see if he will have some 10 to 12 inch bass this fall. Some years he puts small feed trained largemouth in cages in the spring and grows them out through he summer. He then sells them.



Bob Lyons
Brook Indiana
(219) 275-4775

Stormy,
There are several pond and lake management companies in our neck of the woods that offer fish delivery as some of their services. Thanks for the plug Cecil! Also, several fish farms make deliveries in your area so you could get them from them. However, Laggis is a reputable guy to purchase fish from and so I would agree with Cecil's recomendation of his fish.

Heath Davis
All Things Water
Elkhart, Indiana
(574) 596-0829

Stormy,
Welcome to the forum. We had a similar problem with nippers. Last year we stocked HSB and saw a big change in the number of 1 to 3 inch BG; now there are fewer but bigger fish and almost no nips while swimming.Get yourself some predators and put them to work.

I wonder; would a sea lion make it in a freshwater pond?

Good luck.
Chip

Ha! Ha! Dave! Yes, we did try the skinny dip thing once.......it wasn't me that had the problem with the fish, it was my hubby......nuf said. (heeehee!)

Yes, they were supposed to be green sunfish/bluegill cross.

I really appreciate all the information. And thanks, Cecil for the offer of the loan of the cage. We don't live where our pond is located, so we might not be able to feed them as often as we should if they are caged. Also, since we aren't there a lot, we would be afraid that the cage might be stolen or damaged.

My hubby just reminded me that we bought 100 3 to 4 inch largemouth bass a few years ago and never saw them again. We think the blue gill ate them or the kids in the area fished them out.

I'm going to call Laggis tomorrow to do some pricing and possibly place an early order for some fish. I think I remember calling another fish farm and was too late because I didn't order them in advance.

Until next year, I think I'll just fish like crazy when I'm up there and use the little ones (99% of what I catch) for fertilizer and racoon food.

By the way Bobad, you can come up anytime and fish to your heart's content. You bring the beer and your tent, and I'll do cookin - over a wood fire. (and don't forget the mosquito spray)

Again, thanks. I'll let you know how things are going.

Nothing some youngsters, fishing poles and some worms can't fix. Make a little competition out of it and let them go to town.

12$/pound, wow cecil, wonder how many 2 pounders are in my pond, are you serious or did that beaut of a musky result in some sort of reaction, how many of those are you selling? are they for eating or stocking? maybe i should put in some more ponds. heck with feeding catfish, i am feeding bass. if each one is $20, or more, then those kids that catch em for fun are getting run off

"Good" (as in proven good genetics and quality condition) adult LMB 2 lbs + are hard to find and expensive if you can talk someone into selling them.

Cliffbrook, I have a feeling the big ones are for breeding ----Am I right Cecil???

the abundance, diversity, complexity and opportunity of life in the ponds is truly amazing. i do not mean to be negative, i just spilled some beer, in the course of making several deep bows.

does the condition prove the quality? or how is genetics proven?

Condition (K = relative condition in studies) is a measure of quality usually over a population. Better stated as "Is/are the fish in good condition when compared to average " i.e. healthy looking and the right size and weight for its/their age. I have seen pics of CB1's LMB and they appear to be way above average for K. They look like footballs.

Genetics is proven (at least as far as we can do so) by how well a certain fish and its resulting offspring do over multi-generations. Do they grow better than average (average weight and length vs. a given fish's W&L , give a relative weight = RW or Wr), do they reproduce well, do they seem to stay healthy , do they on the whole have good life spans. I have purposely not addressed the Wr and Kn indexs as their pluses and minus get bogged down in statistical analysis. This may help some for what it is worth.

The common practice is to model
weight (W) as a function of length (L) by the allomctric equation,

W = aLb

The parameters a (intercept) and b (slope) are most easily estimated by linear regression based on logarithms:

log (W) = log (a) + b log (L)

Several condition indices have been developed
to simplify the weight-length relationship into a
single parameter. The relationship in equation(1)
can be rearranged to read

a = W/Lb

This is the relationship used in most condition
indices, and hence those indices typically compare estimates of the intercept parameter in equation (1).

K Fulton's Condition Factor

Growth is termed isometric if b in equation (1)
is exactly equal to 3.0. If this is true, equation (3) can be rewriten as

K = W/L3 X 10n

n = 2. 3, 4, or 5 and commonly is chosen so that
the mean of K is a mixed number (i.e., 1.2 instead of 0.00012; .

Nice description, Eric, although I suspect you need to throw Avagadro's Number and Flannagan's Finagling Factor in there somewhere.

I'm not familiar with the models for fish, but isn't the standard form of the allometric equation such that the slope ("b" in the model above) is an exponent? Otherwise the equation says that weight is directly proportional to length with only a constant multiplier used to determine the relationship?

Expressed in different terms, the equation as presented would say that the weight of a fish is always equal to a constant multiplier times the length? That does not match my experience, but I've been wrong before...and probably will be again.

ML :

Which equation are you talking about. You are probably right as the formulas won't copy and I can't put (type) exponents here copied or typed. In the last equation it is L cubed. Also after all the logs there is a lower case small symbol that I can't put here - looks like a small 10. In the first one the b is an exponent (raised). If these don't sound right let me know and I will try to clear them up.

EWEST,

The standard form of the allometric equation would be:

W = a * L ^ b.

This would represent an other ("allo") than linear ( "metric") relationship between the weight of the fish and its length...which would indeed match my own experience. As I said, I'm not knowledgable on fish models, but question a direct/constant relationship between the weight and length of a fish. Thanks.

It ought to at least follow the cube-square law.

so the genetics becomes alot of data, over generations, complete with curve fitting, on log paper...shocking.

thats sounds like alot of work that could be spent on catching turtles

and the condition is what you are looking at. and a good pondmeister will have good condition and data and the environment affects the data.

and i spose the bad data is shot, shoveled and shutup

so then it is important to understand the age story from the last issue, sample what you are looking at, plot against the curves of Cecils or Bruces data to know if you are looking at the good stuff.

or if you are trying to sell the 12$ good stuff you could prove the quality.

ok, so where are the curves? or do i just trust my guy and keep pouring the feed to the CC?

Here is info from Greg Grimes web site.

http://www.lakework.com/articles.php

They are for LMB in the southeast. I can't edit this to seperate the colms. which are in half inch increments. BG are also on the link above at the end of the article.

RELATIVE WEIGHT (RW) TABLE
Largemouth Bass
Length Std. Wt.
10 - 0.5
10.5 - 0.6
11 - 0.7
11.5 - 0.8
12 - 0.9
12.5 - 1.0
13 - 1.1
13.5 - 1.3
14 - 1.5
14.5 - 1.6
15 - 1.8
15.5 - 2.0
16 - 2.2
16.5 - 2.5
17 - 2.7
17.5 - 3.0
18 - 3.2
18.5 - 3.5
19 - 3.9
19.5 - 4.2
20 - 4.5
20.5 - 4.9
21 - 5.3
21.5 - 5.7
22 - 6.2
22.5 - 6.6
23 - 7.1
23.5 - 7.6
24 - 8.1
24.5 - 8.7
25 - 9.3
25.5 - 9.9

Geez! And I thought you just put girly fishies with boy fishies and you get baby fishies and then they grow up to be supper! I'm a teacher, but I never got that logrithm stuff and I definitely don't know when to apply it in formulas.

We're fishing again this weekend - hoping to catch enough keepers for a meal and get rid of a bunch of little ones while I'm at it. I'll probably lose my fishing rod if I hook one of those two big bass we put in there. They were huge when they went in - now they are probably big enough to pull me into the pond!

Then we'll float around and read for a couple hours before dinner. I can't wait - this week has been hectic! I've been nursing sick goldfish in my aquariums.
(I know - I nurse fish at home and throw small bluegill into the woods when I camp. I'm a little conflicted. :p )

I didnt provide credit for data but this is the graph

[img]http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m166/cliffbrook/?action=view¤t=LMBSE.jpg&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch1[/img]

uhg, dont have photo figured out...
link instead
web page

OK, here's an update. I fished our pond yesterday and today and we got a big surprise. I caught 2 young LMB. One was about 4" and the other was 7". These are the first LMB we have caught, ever! Several years ago a friend put 2 huge LMB in our pond and about 15 years ago we put in 100 3". We think the little ones we put in got eaten by the larger bluegill or green sunfish, but that means that we were lucky enough to get one big female and one big male from our friend. I don't know what happened, but somehow, we obviously have bass.

If they have had lots of baby bluegill and green sunfish to eat, how old do you think the ones I caught today are??

Oh, by the way, I also caught ninety 3-4" bluegill and green sunfish and netted another 140 with a butterfly net. The net thing was really easy - took 20 minutes. I was floating around in the pond with a bucket sitting on a closed-foam mat next to me. I used bread to get the fish to gather and had the net under the water. When a bunch of fish came up to eat the bread, I just lifted the net up. There would be 8 or 10 fish in the net each time.

We're going to do the same thing tomorrow.

I forgot one more thing:
The two LMB that I caught were kind of skinny - is that normal for young bass? (As you can tell, I'm not real familiar with age of fish/size of fish, height if fish from stomach to back, or thickness of fish - at different ages)

yeah i know its kinda late...we had a fire here today and i'm still hyped up.....PB is helping me settle down.

you are my kinda gal Stormy.......your husand is a lucky guy. and for that matter.....there aint many women on this forum, so cheers to Stormy, Pondmeisteress.

i'll let the experts chime in on your skinny young bass........but my 2c. is that LMB have a fairly streamlined body til they reach 10-12-inches then if the forage is good they start getting real chunkey, otherwise they exhibit the big head, small body of a stunted population. i dont know how long it takes the average LMB to reach 12 inches, but probably at least 2 yrs.

OMG, Dave! I hope no one was hurt! and I hope the damage wasn't too severe!

I know how fires make you feel - some teenagers burned down the trailer and screenroom at our camping property where the pond is. (We call it the "Outback.") For a couple days we couldn't even go back - we had to work through the anger and frustration. All that was left was the chasis of the trailer - It's amazing how the entire trailer just burned and melted. It even changed the chemistry of the concrete patio blocks that were on the floor of the trailer and the patio - one bump and they fell apart. In the end, however, we ended up with a little nicer trailer and rebuilt the screenroom. As soon as I learn to post pictures, I'll post some pics of the pond, trailer, screenroom, and outhouse.

I haven't read what happened in the case of your fire, but somehow things will end up being improved in the long run.

Spend several days or even weeks making lists of what was damaged or destroyed - We are still remembering things now, and it's been 5 years. You know, little things like tools, and equipment that we forgot were in the trailer.

Thanks for the compliment - I love our Outback and try very hard to take care of the pond. I'm hoping to get control of those little 3-5 inch fish so we can enjoy swimming more and still have fish to eat once in a while. I only caught one "keeper" yesterday - an 8 1/2 inch - very fat - green sunfish. He is now coon food. I wasn't going to let him fertilize any eggs again,

I'll keep you updated on the fish - and soon will have a few more questions.

Thanks so much for your advice. I can't wait until we have enough bass to have a meal or two each year. Yummmm!