James Holt's thread about slot limits inspired me to post about a quick trip this weekend. I went out to my mom's place (east of San Antonio) on Sunday. The pond had the classic stunted LMB problem when I started managing it a few years ago. I've been culling LMB and adding large 5-8" BG, but it is a slow process as I cannot get out there as often as I'd like. The pond is 4 acres when full, but right now it's probably 2-2.5 acres.

With the water so low and with fewer places for the forage to hide, I knew I needed to take more LMB out. I know there are BG, RES, and either HBG or GSF--the ones I've netted were too small for me to tell whether they're pure GSF or not. We did not stock the pond. It also has 15-20 large (up to 15 lbs) CC that I'm trying to take out. The big ones are smart. If you catch one or two, the others get lockjaw no matter what you try. Unfortunately, I don't have time to chart the Wrs of the LMB and log my catches when I'm out there, but angling plus the "eye test" quickly tells me the state of the pond.

The results: The LMB are growing (avg. size is now 13-14" instead of 9-10", but they are still VERY skinny. I culled 25 of the average-sized bass in a full afternoon of fishing. Anything "filletable" (10" or so) up to 1.5 pounds that looked thin came out. I could not catch any CCs this time.








Reversing a stunted LMB population is a chore when you do not live at the pond and do not have a lot of help managing it, but it's a fun challenge.
I also caught two LMB with what I think is a deformity that causes a curved spine. Here is one of them:





That is probably the most pathetic-looking LMB I've ever seen.
It seems to be a genetic deformity, but could this also result from a lack of nutrition? Can it be a result of genetic and nutritional deficincies? If the genetics of the pond have not been altered in awhile, could this be the result of inbreeding?

Maybe the bent backs are due to injuries. But if they were identical in nature, I would have to go with genetics. Some fresh bass blood may be indicated in the future.

I wish I was close enough to help - as much for the uniform of the day (T-shirt and sunglasses) as for the fishing!

P.S. Those are skinny, even compared with the intentionally overcrowded LMB in my big BG pond.

Thanks for the tips, Theo. I also wish you could come help...catching them is a ton of fun! It was so warm Sunday you could've caught them on topwaters.

They are extremely skinny, but they're also getting longer. That is what confuses me. They aren't "truly" stunted or else they would all be the same size and would be 10" or so, right?

The vast majority used to be around 9", but now the vast majority are 13-14". I'm also starting to catch more fish of different sizes. They're definitely getting longer, but they're staying skinny...that's what I don't fully understand. If they were truly stunted, wouldn't they be growing in girth as much as in length?

The other bass with a bent back was much smaller (maybe 7") and was definnitely a younger fish. That's what got me wondering whether it was nutrition or genetics that causes the deformity (or both).

I want to introduce new LMB genetics, but more LMB is the last thing this pond needs. I guess I'll keep culling and stocking larger BG, and maybe eventually I can add LMB.

My skinny bass grow too. Really well fed ones (like DD's proverbial LMB that can go to sleep hungry and wake up full of forage) grow faster than yours or mine.

I figure instead of, say, 1000 hungry 9-inchers, you now have, say, 600 hungry 13-inchers. Progress.

SOP is, IIRC, adding new genetics after you beat your existing surplus down most of the way. Makes sense to me.

What's up with the beard?

His Wife must be out of town and his Daddy hasn't seen him lately. What is becoming of the younger generation?

Wow, Looks like you had a lot of fun. I have the same problem with my pond. Two years ago I had tons of skinny 10 inch LMB now after removing roughly 90 lbs of LMB I have tons of skinny 12-14 inch LMB.

Congrats on the progress with the pond. It's always nice to see a plan working out.

I caught one of those deformed LMB out of my pond about 2 years ago. I thought he added character to the pond so I threw him back. I haven't caught him since then.It's always suprising to me to see those genetically deformed fish. They must realy be some scrappy fish to survive with those deformitys.

Naww, he's just getting a 20-year head start on a midlife crisis beard.

Fish Wife has been putting up with my seasonal growth for 10 years, stating that it is immeasurably better than if I'd bought a Corvette and got her pregnant again.

That's funny, Dave. As "socially conservative" as ahvatsa is, he also grew a beard. We were hunting together, it was cold, and we decided to take the lazy route and not shave. We just kept being lazy after we got home.

I probably won't keep mine very long, but he's probably keeping his for awhile. My wife says she doesn't care and it's my decision, but we all know what that means.

Hey it means "shave your face because you aren't getting near me with that hair on your face" at least that's what it means in my family. Plus having an 8 month old doesn't allow for facial hair, she's to grabby at my face.

Those deformities are actually due to a malfunction during egg development. In most cases those fish don't make it very long they are a little slower and are a classic wounded fish that usually gets taken care of before they reach adult hood. Other than that they aren't any different.

Keep up your managment project. You have come a long way. Eventually you will start seeing real results. At the point that you are not catching fish at phenomenal rates then you might consider stocking additional genetics. Until then remove as many of those remaining bass as possible.

Damage to the blastula or embryo, like some cells knocked out (of alignment), Chad?

Dave, thanks for posting your progress. This type of info is great for novices like me who have just begun to learn. One day I will have enough knowledge to grow some big bluegill.

Thanks for all the responses, guys. Theo, Brett, Chad, and P. Buckley, I appreciate the words of affirmation.

It's a fun project for sure. I'm glad to see the progress, but this weekend told me I'm a long way from the goal. I'm actually o.k. with a bass heavy pond. The goal for this pond is to maintain good catch rates, not grow trophy bass. I would, however, like a little more variety in terms of fish size and age.

There are a few 2-3 pound bass, but it is rare to catch one. They're either 6 inches up to 1.5 pounds, or 5+ pounds. The largest bass I've caught in that pond was 8 pounds. From what I understand, a few very large bass (the ones that "made it" and can forage on the rest of the stunted ones) is common in a stunted bass pond.

My biggest concern is eliminating the large CCs. I don't mind a few of them, but they are wasting biomass and eating much of the available forage. I think getting them out will be a huge help. They're tough to catch anyway, so what fun is that?

Here's a pic of pond structure along the dam. The pond is VERY low.






You gotta take a break and have a little fun!

Is that Commander K-9?

Grow all the facial hair you want davatsa just stop bending your fish.

Some good eating, all those bass lined up! One fine looking dog too! Mine's laying by my side as I type this...

I don't really want to be the one to tell you this CJBS2003, but I think Satan has possessed your dog, the eyes are a dead give away.

What do you think your BG population is like during this time. You said your adding 5-8" are your buying them or transferring them from another pond?

How many bass do you think you average taking out per year?

I pulled out almost 200 out of a 4 acre pond a few years ago and it didn't make a difference. They looked just like yours and hit on every cast. This year im gonna add 1000 3-6" CNBG probably around May. I know its a little late but I'll still catch a few spawns and feel that it is more important to pull out a bunch of fish before I put in the CNBG then just dump them in around March and wonder how many original stockers got ate. Also I plan to have a floating dock in place with a feeder running by that time which would also help the BG along as soon as they are dropped in.

Only thing I guess I have going for me vs. your situation is from where I live I can hit my 4 acre pond with my driver and a decent swing. Plus I have a brother that can catch fish fishing with his eyes closed in the winter time.

good luck, Im right there with you doing the same thing your doing.

Hey Dave take it easy on the beards. http://www.lakework.com/photo_gallery/gallery2/v/Client+Fish/P1010059.JPG.html
At least davasta does not have gray in it like some of us.

Wow Greg, that bass is crazy big!

I remain highly suspicious that there are in fact two Greg Grimes. There is the scary-looking grizzly bear one often seen holding great big bass in photos at lakework.com, and the clean shaven one that can be encountered at PB Conferences, searching for sweet tea.

You see THeo I make Wendy happy this way. It is like having two men. This is probably davasta secret as well he just did not want anyone else to know about it.

JHAP that is the kind of bass davasta will have if he keeps up the harvest program. You can have them this big as well with a little more bluegil and little less GSF but as we say it is all about goals and I know your is to hold the world record GSF.

Wow a world record GSF, to even speak such words brings tears to my eyes.

Chad,
To the best of my knowledge, there are BG, RES, and either GSF or HBG in the pond. I did not originally stock the pond and have not been able to have an electrofishing survey. The pond is also too deep (and steep) to effectively seine. That being said, there are a fair number of large BG and RES. The yoy are eaten quickly by the hungry bass. Post-spawn, the 13-14" bass will be full of 2-3" BG.

I have not caught any adult HBG or GSF that I'm aware of, but I did trap a yoy sunfish that had a very large mouth and the typical fluorescent "veiny" markings we see with GSF or HBG.

I have been transporting 5-8" (and bigger) BG and CNBG from another pond with an abundance of large sunfish (dad's BG pond about 1.5 hours away). I use an igloo ice chest with an O2 tank and stone diffuser to transport. I then acclimate and release the fish...20-30 at a time. I've probably added 100 fish over 2 years. Not a huge difference in a 4 acre pond, but it helps give me more spawners.

I estimate 15 pounds of bass removed last week. I've probably removed 30-35 pounds per year for the last three years. Not enough in a pond that size, but still enough to get the ball rolling. Water is clear and not as fertile as I'd like, but I'm weary of fertilizing because I cannot be there for an extended time to monitor the results.

If I could hit the pond with a driver and a Tiger Woods swing, I'd be in business. Slow and steady will alow me win the race (I HOPE!)

P.S.- JHAP, I'm no match for Sunil when it comes to brute strength, but I'll try to stop bending the LMB. Please, just don't call PETA and let them know.

Agreed, but you are now on top secret double probation.

Greg I just now saw your pictures and I whole heartedly agree with Jeff. Those bass are crazy big! What are those bass eating dogs and cats?

James when you do anything long enough you are bound to get lucky once in awhile. Shocking lakes since 1999 so got a few good uns along the way. Seriously it is not hard to grow big bass. You just have to do the right things in the right environment and follow a solid plan.

This is such a difficult topic because I like to catch lots of bass maybe even if they are stunted over catching only one big one. Is that just crazy?this is the typical size fish out of my pond it is three and a half pounds. Is that skinny for its length?

kinda hard to tell if 17 or 18 inches. if 17" 100% Wr is 2.7 lbs if it is 18" 3.2 lbs so 3.5 is excellent. If you have lots of 10-12 inch bass you would expect those over the hump to be healthy. Your on your way my friend to growing some big 'uns. Did he go back, if not send us the otolith and we will age him for you. I know you were taking notes when matt showed folks how to do that. Hopefully though he went back. His mouth looks small that is a good sign!

He did go back but what are you feeding your fish? The relative weights on those fish must be off the charts.

You bring up an interesting point James. Many Pond Meisters (myself included at least initially) set a goal of have a "Trophy Bass" pond. Yet I think many people (myself included) don't fully grasp the potential consequences of that decision. On several occasions it has been pointed out by many of the learned scholars of this forum that in order to have a true Trophy Bass pond you will by necessity have a relatively small number of large bass per acre of water. Ultimately you will be catching the same bass over and over and more likely than not that bass will become more hook shy and be more difficult to catch. So the pond meister has made a trade off of catching a large number of LMB per outing to the potential of catching a trophy bass occasionally. Quite a dilemma eh? A while back in one of the Pond Boss magazines there was an article about a gentleman that was primarily concerned with catch rates and not the size of the catch and this person stocked a large number of various species in his pond and intentionally let them be a little hungry. In this way he insured that guests to his pond would have the ability to catch any one of a multitude of different kinds of fish and catch quite a few of them. Over the past year or so I have decided that I am no longer interested in managing for trophy bass. I am more interested in catching a variety of fish. I already have LMB, GSF, BG, and RES in the pond and this year I'm gonna add Sacramento Perch. I have decided to follow the "Willie Nille" Philosophy of pond stocking. I don't know whether or not this will achieve what I want, time I'm sure will tell.

Oh and by the way your idea isn't necessarily crazy, on the other hand asking this group whether or not something pond related is crazy, well that's just crazy.

I'm sure the experts can address this topic (trophy bass pond versus catch rates or put another way - managing a pond for catch rates rather that large size fish) better than I or even refute my entire premise as I could have it completely wrong. What say you learned scholars and pond meisters extraordinaire?

Thank you Jeff you made me feel better because I go back and forth and when it may take ten years to reach a goal of a trophy bass pond going back and forth every year between size and numbers makes reaching that goal of a trophy difficult. I know some people on the forum have the luxery of two ponds and can have seperate goals for each. However many of us that have only one pond try to have the two ponds together. This can cause a biomass crash because we have many large fish instead of just a few per acre and so each year someone has a fish kill. I really like George's idea of a fish ladder having different sizes of fish that can be caught. I wonder if it should be more like a pyramid with the smallest numbers of fish being the largest fish reducing the chances of a fish kill. It seems to do this would take a plan of managment and removal of certain sizes. Jeff what do you plan on removing each year to keep your pond from having a biomass crash?

I think the best answer that I have for this question is a little of everything but a lot of Bluegill. If I could teletransport myself back in time then I would not have added Bluegill. I would have added the RES and Sacramento Perch and therefore had a LMB, GSF, RES and Sacramento Perch pond. It's not that I dislike BG, they are fun to catch and very good eating, it's just that they are such a prolific breeder that I think I'm going to have to really concentrate on removing them in order to ensure any viable populations of the other species of sunfish. And by the way I have no idea if this is going to work or not. I do know that I would rather be able to catch a multitude of fish each outing. Fishing on our pond in 2008 was poor. We stocked our pond in spring of 2007 and then had a massive fish kill in summer/fall of 2007 (we had Elodea that had grown to about 70% coverage on our pond and my theory is that this ultimately caused an oxygen crash). The numbers of fish in our pond by late 2007 was significantly reduced. But in a way this was a good thing. In 2008 we embarked on an Elodea war and reduced to about 5% coverage, we allowed some american pond weed to claim some territory and now I believe have a reasonable amount of pond vegetation. We witnessed excellent recruitment of all of the fish species in 2008, we saw fry and young of the year in all species and I caught the largest LMB in 2008 that I have ever seen in our pond (four pounds and well fed, nothing trophy sized but it was fun none the less). I'm planning on adding Sacramento Perch this year (just because they are native to our area and grow to a decent size) and will continue on vegetation control. I just want to catch fish, they don't have to be huge and I'd like to be able to throw the line out and have the opportuninty to catch any one of a number of species. If that's crazy then I'm ready for the asylum.

Oh and here's a photo of the LMB that I caught on our pond in 2008. It's nothing compared to the size of the LMB that other pond meisters here have but it was a fun catch on ultra light tackle.

Good discussion, guys!

James, I agree with the pyramid theory. I think that's what many ponds would look like if you drained them. The smallest types of forage, added together, would form the bulk of the biomass. The pyramid would taper for each larger species (each type of predator). I think you hit the nail on the head with the "2 ponds in one" theory: it's difficult to have large numbers of trophy fish. The reason is because you'd have to keep FEEDING large numbers of trophy fish to keep them at a healthy Wr, and it is a rare pond that can sustain those sorts of populations.

That is why fertilization, aeration, etc. are important--they allow you to alter nature just a little to get more biomass. You can have a little bit of cake and eat it too.

Jeff, that's a pretty bass. At least you didn't bend it. I also like your multi-species idea. It sounds similar to what Norm Kopecky did, except I believe his method was put & take with almost exclusively predator species. I'd love to have a pond dedicated to growing trophy fish of choice, plus another pond with a hodgepodge of all different species and sizes of fish. If I could only have one, I'd rather have better catch rates with multiple species and try for an occassional trophy fish as a bonus.

There is nothing wrong with wanting 1 trophy LMB , or 2 trophy BG or 3 a balanced pond. Good review of the tradeoffs Jeff.

Here is why if I had one pond I would manage for a balanced pond. You might catch a trophy LMB or trophy BG or #s of LMB or BG or RES etc. A balanced pond is a healthy pond for all fish species. Often (not always nor necessarily) a trophy pond has one species that is overcrowded and thin (not the most healthy situation for that species as they are under stress). To much stress leads to problems. You can have a balanced pond population with bigger fish by feeding pellets. Notice I did not say it would be a trophy pond just fish a little bigger and healthier. But you have to watch #s and water quality.

James,

That's a nice LMB. Personally I would rather catch those all day long as opposed to searching for one big LMB. That size of LMB puts up a good fight. I was like you at one time also (I kind of still am). I cant decide whether I want to be able to go out and catch a bunch of decent sized LMB or just a couple realy Large LMB. I would like to have both scenarios available (imagine that an pondmeister want's it all :D) After a lot of thought a blanced pond with a good catch rate of healthy LMB is a more suitable goal for me (but I still have a dream of catching a 10 lb+ LMB from my pond).

Having only a few species is boring to me.

I love not knowing what is on the end of the line until you get your eyes on it.

Like last summer, I had a fish on, and it was fighting like a freight train. I told my care taker dude to get his camera ready.

I get the fish in, and it's this 15" HSB which BTW is the small for my pond. Most all of my HSB are 18" and up.

The caretaker is ready to take a picture and I was like, don't bother dude.

I thought I had a huge LMB or a channel cat on.

whatever the goal, the trick is maintaining yer ideal state of pond over multiple seasons....things change so fast, especially in small ponds.

JHAP, best not to stick fingers in gill area for fish intended for release......i'm guilty of that alot too but was recently reminded of this on my OTHER forum.

I agree with Sunil .... "thought i had a big LMB and it was only a 15' HSB ...
LMB are boring and a pain in th a** to control without making fun into work ... but what's a "SHARECROPPER" gonna do when his landlord loves LMB?

I LOVE SMALlIES ...

Jeff what was the rw on that fish it looks really fat?

I agree, I am the same way! A pond with only LMB, BG, RES and CC is nowhere near as fun as a hodge podge pond!

Beautiful lab by the way, CJB!

I don't know for certain. Unfortunately the day that I caught it I had a scale with me but not a measuring tape. The bass weighted just over 4 pounds. When I caught the bass I posted it on pond boss and the general consus was an rw of between 115% and 130%. I now make sure that I have a measuring tape in the tackle box at all times - at least I had a scale and a camera. Oh and by the way this was a MAJOR improvement of LMB rw for us. Prior to that we had been catching LMB in the 70% to 80% rw range.

I didn't know that. See there you do learn something every day. That bass was thrashing like mad. Ricki took a bunch of photos of it to come up with one where it was holding still.

Oh and as an also and besides, I caught that LMB on an Ultra Light rig with 6 pound test. It hit on a 1/16 oz rooster tail (I know super small jig) in very shallow water - I was actually fishing for GSF and BG at the time, it didn't occur to me that a 4 pound LMB would hit such a small jig, of course admittedly I am an amature fisherman at best.

This is what we are striving for. A balanced pond with decent relative weights (at least not skinny fish). Admittedly this might be difficult given the variety of species that we have. We are going to actively track RW during 2009 to try to make so assessment of the various species and then develop a culling strategy accordingly.




Feeding is not a option for us (absentee owners, the pond is 500 miles away). I guess the question is (at least in our pond) will it be possible to have a pond with a variety of species that have decent relative weights without feeding?

I realize that I have probably made my life more difficult in selecting a variety of fish but for those of you that know me, you know that if there is a way to get to a place and back by walking up hill in both directions then that is probably the route that I will take, it's just the way I roll.

Thanks davatsa, and no I did not bend it. I did however plunge my fingers into it's gills and have been properly reprimanded for that.





I'm going to have to look through my Pond Boss magazine collection and find the article. I didn't realize that he used exclusively predator species - OOPS!

Thanks! We love her and think she's beautiful too... HAHA

Guys great discussion. Keep in mind another thing, size of pond. Many folks on this board have smaller ponds say less than 2 acres. It is difficult to grow many large bass in pond this size. Most of the bass in my photos came from ponds/lakes 8 acres or more. We have many clients that have multiple ponds and I encourage exactly what you guys are talking about. It is so much fun to have a pond designed just for kids fishing, another for growing forage, etc.

Keep in mind most of these bass are coming from lakes I consider quality bass not trophy. You can catch plenty of bass from them b/c they are larger and we are using techniques to grow as many lbs/acre as well.
Jeff you said you cannot feed? Whatcha talkin bout willis, that is what a automatic feeder is for. You are missing out on a big aspect to growing more fish in that pond especially with your goals by not feeding. It may not fit for other reason but if you visit once every 6 weeks or so might want to give that some more thought. Also not surprised by the Wr the bigger bass in the pond should be healthy they have the desired food they need. Run a Wr on the smaller 11 inch bass to see how they look now. Also invest in a measuring board vs. tape measure, you can be off by 1/2” or more and throw off the Wr quite a bit on smaller fish. Run the Wr on your bluegill and greenies also.

We started selling a pond mgmt kit with a good kitchen scale and ruler or this is what we have in our packet along with data sheets to track pond info. http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templa...rset=ISO-8859-1
With this in your arsenal you have the tools needed for DIY pond manager. Feel free to call us about the kit we will have on our website soon I hope but excited to offer it b/c we think it is what folks need.

Unfortunatly there are times of the year (like now for instance) that we cannot visit the pond for several months. I am sure that you are right that we could do much better with feeding however right now it's not in the cards.




Wow, interesting you show that Haug Trough measuring board, we have that exact measuring board - I just didn't have it on the boat at the time. We now keep it in the fishing duffle bag (we keep a medium duffle bag with all the fishing gear in it because it's easier to move around in the alum boat and kayak). I am going to track Wr (that seems backwards to me) on everything that I catch this year. I like your kit idea, I would have purchased that through you if I had known that you sold something like that. I would much prefer to go through a pond boss vendor than a big store outfit.

Jeff 10-4 you can shut down a feeder if knowing you would not be there for awhile. Most cleints do that anyway because of winter time temps. Jeff we just setup the pond kit this winter so no worries, thanks though. We had to negioate rates on the products. It is not a big money maker for us but should save clients quite a bit of money and hassle in looking up what they need. It will include that scale, digitial very accurate "kitchen type" scale, secchi disc, thermometer, clipboard, data sheets, Deluxe version will also have tag gun, 100 colored tags 100 numbered tags, alkalinity test kit. We have presold a few before it is even on the website.

Wr is scientfic way to abbreviate relative weight, I guess the weight part is more important than the relative part. I look forward to seeing your Wr postings this spring.

Man Jeff, don't quote me on that! (pun intended) That's why I prefaced my statement with "almost." Now that I think about it, I'm guessing he had forage species in there. But I do recall him saying that his pond was purposefully predator-heavy with multiple species. He treated it as a put & take--interesting idea.

By the way, the best part about culling LMB is the final step.

Here is what the LMB in the first post ended up looking like:




Add salad and taters, and you got yourself a meal!

(Drool)

Dang that looks good.

Let me tell ya...it was smack-yo-mama good!

Ahvatsa, davatsa, and our wives devoured nearly all of it. This means that ahvatsa and davatsa ate for 1.5 people and our wives at their usual (about half portion).

On a related note, my wife informed me that I need to lose a little weight before going on our trip in August. It appears that an excursion on the trip involves a helicopter ride with a 250 pound limit per person.

I told my wife that since she weighs LESS than HALF of what I weigh, it would even out. She's not buying it.

It's easier to lose it now than later.

shaving the beard you will lose 1/4 lb don't forget about that.

"Let me tell ya...it was smack-yo-mama good!"


That's one I've never heard untill now. Must be a texas thing.

I don't get the saying either Brett295, it seems to me that if your mom makes a delicious meal and then you slap her for her trouble, then there would be less incentive for her to repeat the meal preparation, ergo no repeat performance of the meal. Well unless of course you punch her in the gut for a terrible meal, then I guess it would somehow balance out. Texans are a funny lot.

I will not let TX take credit for that saying. It is a southern saying. No idea what it means it is just fun to say when you get some good food. In fact there are alot of things I do not understand that I do.

Don't feel bad Greg. You do a lot of things that I don't understand either.

***No mothers were harmed during the preparation or consumption of this meal.***