I'm about to make a post that makes me sad. It's going to be quite negative, and maybe some of you will encourage me to pull the post, but I need to have my say.

After years of discussions regarding Georgia Giants, and many conflicting reports as to "what they are", and "how they perform", I decided that the scientist in me would have to order some.

I contacted Ken Holyoke at Ken's Fish Farm, and his assistant Deb. Deb was very cordial and offered to help me in what would eventually be an article in regards to Georgia Giants.

I made a rather sizable order, and anxiously awaited their arrival.

I started with a brand new lined pond that was specially set up with a feeder, and aerator and a continuous fresh water supply.

When the fish arrived they were in awful condition. Probably 30 percent of the Georgia Giants in the tank were stone dead, and the other 70 percent were piping at the surface. We did our best to revive the fish, and the drivers, to their credit, tried to find the best remaining fish for me.

Like an idiot, I paid them, thinking that at the very least they would replace the fish if they didn't make it.

Following are some pictures of the 25 fish that survived out of the several hundred Georgia Giants that were delivered.






As you can probably see my Georgia Giant project was essentially a total loss.

Now here's where it gets interesting. Deb King, who I really respect and I believe did her very best, left information for the people at Ken's Fish Farms that they would need to replace these fish. But when I called them for replacement of the Georgia Giant hybrids a few moments ago they went on an absolute tirade, accusing me of making the story up, accusing Deb King of making promises that she shouldn't have made, and here's the very worst part..

"They said they could replace the Georgia Giants if I provided proof of their demise, but that they could only UPS fish (one inchers I assume) and that there would be a 250 dollar "handling and shipping fee".

I almost couldn't believe my ears. Here I am, trying to be totally flexible on the size of fish, and when I'd take delivery, and they're practically yelling at me on the phone as the lady, (will remain unnamed), is getting angrier and angrier as the conversation went on.

I ask you, is this the way to run a business??

If I would have paid the 250 bucks for handling and shipping, and gotten 400 1 inch fish, it would have been more expensive than hybrid sunfish should be at full cost!

I'm still a little stunned that Ken Holyoke runs a business so lacking in customer service, but I guess that maybe I shouldn't be. The Georgia Giant came in poor condition, looked an awful lot like a standard green sunfish bluegill cross, and came with disease and highly stressed.

I'd like to make the point that Deb treated me great and I got the impression that Ken's Fish Farm was using her as a scapegoat for their own greedy practices. I can see why Deb left them. I'm sure that she eventually came to realize that there was something fishy about their business. I wish her luck and hold absolutely no hard feelings towards her.

I know, I know...I was stupid for taking a chance with them. Many of you warned me that something like this could happen. But I thought I'd try to end the debate once and for all.

Ouch! But I don't blame you.

I've heard you can buy Green Sunfish fingerlings intended for bait.

C'mon Bruce, you know you want to. Or maybe you could join me in a FH/RES test...

Any of you who've read most of my nearly 5,000 posts know that I've got about 1,000 informative posts, 1,000 question posts, 2,000 goofy playful posts, and this one is the only upset post.

GW, any test that involves RES, you can count me in, baby!

Bruce:

Was this a recent Georgia Giant shipment or a shipment of Georgia Giants made some time ago?

Bruce, although I have not posted very much I've pretty actively monitored and enjoyed the benefits of your's and other's experience and advice here on Pondboss forum in building my own trout pond in New Hampshire.

But I felt compelled to respond to your above post, and speak to the "maybe I should not post this" observation you made.

Sometimes doing what is right doesn't feel good. But it needs to be done. I applaud and appreciate that you call attention to this bad situation.

Generally, PB Forums maintain communication standards that are all about positive and supportive posts, explanations, and encouragement. But at some points the community standards should extend to business ethics and standards, and violations thereof.

I feel like this post, and your own motivation in posting, is consistent with that spirit. Posts like these can be very, very valuable.

Best wishes from the frigid northeast.

These were the Georgia Giants that I had delivered in April, 2006.

NE Mason, thanks for the best wishes. It's been a little cold here as well. It was 55 degrees today and felt downright balmy.

It's a really strange concept that you could ever run a business where your reputation was irrelevant.

http://www.crappie.com/

NE and others. There is a historical context about the GG threads here. Very acrimonious within and amongst the Forum members. Same with respect to Ken Holyoke and his business activities. We try very hard to stay fair and balanced about such matters. After much debate Bob and the Forum leaders decided to stick to the science. We requested data which was promised but not delivered. We did outside research and found little. Some experiments are ongoing with mixed results. While we all have our own thoughts about the fish , that does not excuse bad business tactics. Others have reported similar situations as that by Bruce. Those are egregious matters that Bruce reported and should be opened to the light of day. Everyone should deal with that outfit at your own risk. All - be careful in reporting about other people or their business principles or lack thereof on an open forum. Liable and slander are still actionable (you could get sued) but truth is an absolute defense.

I'm curious about delay in reporting this Bruce.

The phone call just occurred today. This was supposed to be the month that we arranged delivery of the fish for the 2008 season. They blew me off over and over again last year and didn't return repeated phone calls, until it was too late for me to stock them. Then Deb King told me that they would take care of me in 2008.

Thanks for reporting this Bruce, especially because I live so close to them.

Honestly the two things that bothered me the most.

1) The implication that I was lying. They even said that I never paid for the originals, and I'm sitting here with a cancelled check in my hand, and a copy of the personal message sent to me by Deb King stating that they would take care of the problem.

2) The fact that they felt they were doing me a favor by sending me some fingerlings for 250 dollars. It insulted my intelligence, and I suspect that they knew I would never do it.

It would be like if I placed a crown on somebody, and it failed, and then I told them that I would replace it, but it would take a series of forty appointments. Who's going to do that?

Sadly, Bruce, the fish business isn't the only place one can encounter those behaviors.

Hey! No politics.

Agreed.

The great irony in the situation is that I love big bluegill and panfish in general SO MUCH, that I honestly thought that I could raise these fish to giant proportions. Can you imagine the windfall of good business that they could have generated by simply treating me like a human being? Instead the lady acted like she hated my guts from the first moment of the conversation. She kept saying "What I'm offering you is...", then she'd repeat the part about the 250 bucks to ship these tiny fingerlings. C'mon now, couldn't they have maybe just charged me the actual cost? Maybe 100 bucks, or absorbed it themselves just for the good will? Geez, I'm such a pushover I probably would have paid half of the shipping, even though their so called "guarantee" of healthy delivery hadn't materialized.

I even told the lady that I had been excited to write an eventual article for a magazine about Georgia Giants, and that it would be hard to find a good way to end the story, but she yelled "You just go ahead, for every one person like you I've got ten people who love our product". I almost got the giggles after that.

Now that my ego has recovered from the original insults I'm not even really upset, but I think this thread should remain as a warning for others to step cautiously into a business relationship with any business that they don't know about personally or have first hand information on.

I think Deb King was a strength of this business, and now that she's gone maybe they are still in recovery mode. The lady I talked to didn't exactly sound like she knew how to handle a phone call.

Bruce that lady probably answers those type calls all day given the business practices !

Anyone want to guess what this is ?

Without revealing too much, Bruce, did Deb stay in the biz or did she go back to full-time Mom + weekend ghostbusting?

Last I heard she was using her biology training in a different field. IMO she got tired of the people she worked for doing to her what was done to Bruce..

The lady on the phone blamed Deb for the problems and stated that they were "cleaning up a lot of the mess" that she had made. To me that was the saddest thing of all; smearing Deb's name just so they didn't have to live up to their guarantee. Shame on them. Deb was the best thing they had going for them.

More about Georgia Giants

Any reputable business owner or business person knows that bad news travels faster and further than good news.

The whole Pond Boss forum and the Georgia Giants introduction to the forum were not good in any way, shape, or form for Holyoke.

As honorable as Deb's efforts may have been, she could not feed the same baloney to the forum here that Holyoke fed to the unwary clients who knew no better. While I believe Deb wanted to give as much information to the forum as she could, I firmly believe she was not allowed to do so by Holyoke; more importantly, I don't think she really knew much about it herself. Best of luck to her in whatever she does.

Sorry to read this Bruce.
If I owned the business, I would personally deliver Dr. Condello as many fish as he wanted within reason. When I pulled up to his pond, I'd get out with a big smile and hardy handshake, ready to get to work with him. I would document the whole thing with pictures, video and testimonials from Bruce. I would tell my staff that if Bruce calls, he should be treated like a rock star, and I would do everything in my power to see those fish reach their full potential. When they did reach that full potential, I would know that thousands of Pond Boss guys across the country would hear about it and be clamoring to get their fish.

It's really not complicated.

Bruce - I was always suspect of "that operation" and your experiences reinforce those doubts. It is sad that they were in very poor behaviour for replacing obviously miserable fish that were originally delivered to you. Think of how good the business could be if they treated people fairly. It appears they will treat you fairly only if you don't have a problem with them. It is a very convenient way to do business for them but not the customer.

ewest, Your odd looking fish appears to be a genetically deformed HBG or GSF. It looks like the door was slammed in its face as a youngster. It also appears to be too narrow bodied for some sort of sunfish but the gill flap is a dead giveaway for sunfish genetics. Genetics could have also affected body form.

Based on appearances, it's Mother was a Goby, and it's Father ... smelled of elderberries.

Footnote - Cody - And those elderberries were probably fermented.

Then again, I would only do all that if I truly had confidence in my product.

I was curious about Ken's operation. Glad my pond is full of healthy "Quitman Giant's (ok not really giants but, good healthy bluegills). Boy did they put on a show at feeding time today. Some of the males' colors right now are absolutely beautiful. Deep red oranges and stuff. Plan to catch some this weekend.

Bruce sorry to hear about that....hate to hear about bad customer service from any company. I'll definitely remember this and warn anybody I hear talking about maybe getting fish from Ken's.

That is a pic of what the pond owner said was an F1 GG (2nd generation GG). It was born about 10 mths after the first fish (GG) went in to a new pond. There were also some normal looking GG and a few more like the one above.

I hope Bruce does not take on that appearence after getting the door slammed in his face by THAT hatchery.

My face felt like that fish's face looked, after I got scolded by Ken's secretary.

ya know, secretary's shouldn't have to deal with all the crap they do because their boss sells a bad product. I'm sure she gets tired of all the unsatisfied customers. Probably doesn't like her job. No excuse for treating sweet Condello like that though.

She definitely didn't sound like she's enjoys her job.

Sincerely,

Sweet Condello

Bruce, I have kept quiet long enough. I too was SCAMMED by them! I ordered fish and upon delievery water samples were taken from three ponds. I received a call from Ken himself and was told there would be no guarantee on fish due to water problems...mainly ammonia. He did talk me into $600.00 worth the chemicals. (Nothing like the warm fuzzys when stocking first ponds...) less than a month later Todd Overton was on site and did water test and showed me I had NO problems. The crap delievered was still at my office. Not a drop had been used. I called him, left several messages and finally spoke with a complete moron and was told Georgia law would not allow chemical returns. Funny thing is, when I hung up from Ken my gut told me this man is close to a carnival barker! I new it was a BS sale! Hell, I have been a USED CAR DEALER for 30 years...I can spot BS 6-7 miles on a cloudy day. There needs to be a place for this type info and the Moderators may have to step in. I have PMed a few about this but I am also happy to make it public. FWIW I also was billed $35.00 a bag for salt that was put in with the HSB...2 bags...
ps ewest are you licensed in Texas?

Bill notes

Welcome to the world of sales.
Probably a sale fish.

Looks like an MM (Mississippi Midget)...can I say that?

You need to be more politically correct. Try "Mississippi length challenged".

Ewest, I've got 3 or 4 fish exactly like that in my pond full of HBG. My largest ones are close to a pound now but look just like that except more hybrid in color. I always release them because I'd like to see how big the freaks get. I've heard that nutrition problems when young can do that to fish. Anyone know about that?

That fish may be a freak because of interbreeding too. I can't imagine a swindler who doesn't care about customer satisfaction caring much about his breeding program.

Being a little more involved in the industry than a regular pond owner, I heard the low down on Holyoke's so called Georgia Giants a long time ago. One supplier told me they were nothing more than green sunfish X bluegill hybrids and when he ran low they came to him for his hybrids even though Holyoke says they are something special. Everyone told me he could sell ice to eskimos and to stay the hell away.

thanks bruce (and al), great posts, great thread.

My heart goes out to Deb – she is quiet a lady.

I have wished her well privately in her new endeavor, and now that this scam has seen the light of day, I want to thank her publicly for her kindness and support in my time of need, and wish her the very best.
George Glazener

As far as I can tell, before Al's confession, there were only three Pond Bossers who dealt with Holyoke. Two of them liked what they got, and the third had no choice but to buy from them and no choice but to be completely satisfied (you know, ulterior motives).

edit (not including Bruce)

I have no doubt, that IF you wanted hybrid sunfish, and IF the fish happened to be delivered in good shape, and IF you followed good practices of fish density and feeding, and IF you maintained good water quality, that you could end up being very satisfied with these fish.

I just feel bad for you if you have to deal with the current regime in a post-sale customer service matter. That's my main point. I wanted to find out some things about the fish themselves, but their poor customer service didn't allow me to.


http://www.crappie.com/gr8vb3/archive/index.php/t-16921.html

Guys I feel for Deb having had to work for them. I am so glad she achieved a safe extraction from that situation. When all this started I did some calling and checking and emailing non-PB sources. There are others here who have encountered Ken's but like Al keep quiet. Thankfully others who came here first avoided the mess. Most have a horrible experience if they follow his purchasing recommendations. Sometimes the fish are ok sometimes not. I don't want sometimes fish in my pond. Plus I don't want a repeat of what Bruce and Al encountered. Greg also noted that he had to go behind them on a # of occasions and fix the problems. I trust Greg from personal experience and his work on PB. It sure sounds like a pattern of problems to me. Most importantly it is critical that the science make sense - to much of theirs doesn't. Al not in Texas or Georgia as 3 states are enough.

Guys I think you know the back ground on how all this started with trying GG. Basically I was talking bad about them and I try to not do that. Some did not believe me and ordered them and posted here. I was not aware of Deb and she really tried and convinced me they might have changed. I think she was naïve actually as to what was going on.

I ordered some even for a handful of clients. I got a credit for orders I placed. I never got to use it b/c after a few stockings it caught up to me. The clients received a free water test. These were my clients that trusted me and questioned my intelligence. Ken said the water was poor that adding ag lime was a waste and they needed to order his water products asap. It caused me to have to give a pond mgmt 101 class to clients. They realized the scam but they had already wasted money. So here we are again this topic gets many hits just like it did back in 2006. I do with Larry would report some current results.

I wish Deb the best and think she meant well. Bruce sorry you had to go through this, but hope by posting others will not do the same.

Thanks for the information, Greg.

I think your last sentence really hits the nail on the head. What's done is done, and the point of this thread is not to bash Ken and his operation just for the sake of bashing him. The point is for those who have dealt with Ken to let others know the truth. Hopefully, then, no one else who reads or posts here will have to go through similar circumstances. It's all about not repeating your mistakes. That's one thing I love about this forum--No matter the topic, we're always sharing and learning from the experiences of others.

You don't need to explain anything to us, Brother.

When something smells, there is always a big steaming pile somewhere close by.

Extremely accurate assessment.

davatsa is a bright young man! Well done.

That ranks on my "I'm buying you three rounds when I see you in July" scale.

Thanks, Sunil! I don't think I'm anywhere near Fatty's "free round" total, but I'm workin' on it.

I don't care what anyone says...if Fattay partakes in the amount of rounds he has in the bank, he will, no doubt, be comatose the whole weekend.

Sunil that is one of the ten best truisms ever on PB !!

davatsa

"no one else who reads or posts here will have to go through similar circumstances. "

Sunil

"You don't need to explain anything to us, Brother.

When something smells, there is always a big steaming pile somewhere close by. "

ewest replies

I view our job as also being sure ,that to the extent we can, that none of our forum members step in that big pile.

Sunil that entitles you to a case on me - take a gold star.

Cheers to that my friend!

I've mistrusted Holyoke since the Hogzilla scam.

Glad Deb escaped.

If I recall correctly, I once suggested to Deb in a PM that she should hang with us on the forum simply as herself as opposed to a representative of Holyoke. In credit to her, it was in her nature to defend those who she associated with, and there was no way to be clean defending Holyoke.

She should never look back on that place.

Boy, this thread was timely for me. I have a 15 year old 1/3 acre pond that is out of balance and I called Ken's Fish Farm just yesterday. I recalled that the last time I researched them (years ago) some of the other fish guys, both locally and in these forums, did not speak well of his fish, suggesting that they were nothing more than regular hybrids just like they sell locally. To be fair, the lady that I spoke with at Ken's was very nice and took several minutes discussing with me ways that I might bring my pond back to life. However, it soon became apparent that it was going to cost a fortune to stock their fish in my pond, just North of Memphis. She suggested 500 of the larger GG fish (at $1.00 each) along with some of their minnows and bass. Because they did not ship the larger fish, the delivery charge alone was going to run nearly $400. She also strongly suggested that I first send them a water sample to determine if the water needed treatment prior to them delivering the fish. I could not help but feel that something would somehow be wrong with my water. It looks like I will be buying locally instead.

Given all of this negative coverage of GG bream. Can anyone out there suggest an proper alternative (shellcrackers, hybrids, coppernose?) for a pond between 1/4 and 1/3 acre? I do have a fresh water supply and aeriation

Darrell, happy to help. You can do quite a few things in your pond - and you're starting the right way with good water and aeration. Before anyone recommends anything, first question will be "what are your goals?" What do you want for the pond? How will you use it? Do you want to feed? What types of fish do you like to catch? Etc. Is the pond free of all fish now?? What is the history of it over 15 years? Nobody here will push a perfect strategy on you, it all depends on what you want to accomplish.

Having just one person saved from a scam makes it all worth while.

Wonder just how many innocent folks got fleeced when we kept our mouths shut about what was going on?

Good point george. The water test thing really burns me up.

Yup. Me too.

D Bright - Welcome to our pond advisory forum. Aaron summed it up well. Please take a little time and provide ideas to his questions about your pond and we can gladly help. Note. Standard hybrid bream (HBG), which can be a good and beneficial fish, do have their place in a small pond fishery. One just should understand the pros and cons of the fish they plan to stock then decide if those characters meet ones goals.

D Bright I sugggest that you put your answers on a separate new topic so the ideas and posts do not get buried in this thread. Maybe use the Forum heading of Stocking a New Pond then Types of Fish to Choose.

I have to wonder how many people turned sour to fish suppliers in general thanks to that outfit?

My Lucky day to find this forum. I too was almost suckered. At least he only got me for two gallons of Microb Lift. Ken is a slick talker. Sent my first water sample in. After two weeks of hearing nothing, I called and was told my water was poison. Am was up to 3.0. They were surprised my fisg were not dieing left and right. I purchased two gallons of microb lift and was told to send another sample in after two weeks. After reading the contents information, I decided to buy 4 more gallons locally. I sent another water sample back after two weeks. After waiting 10 days for a call, I contacted them again. I was told that the amomina was still 2.78. I pulled another sample and had a chemist at a local water plant test my water. Amonia was .54, ph 6.3, no nitrates or fecal matter. I talked with my pond guy yesterday and he agreed that all they want to do is sell me chemicals.
I'll deal with bring up my PH on my own. Has anyone ever used hydrated lime as recommended by Ken.

By the way I am still waiting for a reply to two emails sent to Ken in January.

Hydrated lime will raise the pH. BE very careful with hydrated lime it can react fast to raise the pH TOO fast and result in fish deaths. I suggest you talk to the chemist at the local water plant before adding hydrated lime to your pond. He should be able to guide you through this process if you decide to go that route.

Welcome to the forum SCSCUBA1!

That's a pretty significant differential between what the chemist told you and what Ken told you. That raises some interesting questions in my mind.

If I worked for "Sixty Minutes", I'd almost be tempted to send in four or five samples, and simulataneously send in that many samples to the local chemist or university.

I certainly didn't intend for this thread to be a "bash Ken" thread. I harbor no ill will towards him. I was just upset that his secretary felt there was no way to back up their product. I've never allowed them to test my water, although they offered to do so. I told them that I regularly test my water anyway.

Hind site is 20/20. I already put about 15 pounds in the pond this morning. I mixed the hydrated lime with water in a stainles steel container and then sprayed it over 1/2 of my 1/3 acre pond. Hopefully I have done no harm.

Bruce wrote:
"I harbor no ill will towards him."
_________________________________________________________________

I am biting my tongue here so hard it's BLEEDING!
EOM
edit
But, I DO believe...
What goes around comes around...

SCSCUBA1: Using 15 lbs of hydrated lime in an 1/3 ac pond with a pH of 6.3 should not cause problems. Did the water chem guy do an alkalinity test for you? If your water has a decent amount of buffering which it probably doesn't then 50 lbs in a 1/3 acre should not kill fish. Before adding more hydrated lime go to a swimming pool place and buy one of their pH test kits. Use it to test for pH increase as you add the lime in increments of 15 to 20 lbs.

I assume that you plan to fertilize your pond. If you don't plan to fertilize your pond a pH of 6.3 will still grow fish if they are regularly fed fish food.

"What goes around comes around..."

Those are words to live by, although I thought it was "What comes around goes around."

Sometime next week, I may urinate in a jar and send it on over to Holyoke. Of course the risk is minimal seeing as they probably never even open up the samples.

Really though, it would be interesting to send over a sample of distilled water or something like that.

Sounds like a good idea to me, Sunil

The scary problem was the alk of only 4. I figure to deal with one problem at a time. If I get the PH up hopefully the ALK wiill also come up

I try to feed fish food several times a week. Water temp tonight was 70 degrees. My Pond guy wants me to cut back on the feeding. We'll see! I hate for the fish to go hungry. I guess I am just getting too old. Knocking on the 60 door!!!

Sunil,

Why not get more creative? Distilled water tinted with Kool-Aid or something.

That's what I keep trying to tell Bill Cody. But he says he doesn't believe in karma. He and I were done very wrong a couple of years ago by a fish farmer in R, C, Ohio. B H is his name and the farm is called the R F F. I came to pick up $600.00 worth of bluegills. The guy refused to come out. When he did he said he was, "I'm all out." Then he said let me rephrase that, "I am not selling any to you! And I want you two off my property immediately." I had no clue what I had done nor did Bill. Only thing that I could come up later was I had one of his competitors electroshock my pond. (Actually all they did was manage ponds, they didn't even sell fish).

Apparently this B H is paranoid of competiton and had it out for me for doing business with one of his competitors. Found out I was not the only one he had done this to. A fish supplier in Indiana was going to get fish from him. He backed out at the last minute and left her hanging.

What really honked me is the guy refused to tell us why.

I drove many hours round trip to buy fish for nothing. Unfortunately he doesn't have much competition (Imagine that with him being so paranoid) so it probably doesn't hurt him one bit. I still believe in Karma though. Just may take time. :-)

SCSCUBA1 Adding h.lime will increase the alkalinity and pH.

What is the reason that your Pond Guy wants you to cut back on feeding your fish. How much are you feeding to what types of fish? Also what type or brand of fish food you using? Does the bag tag list crude protein content?

First of all, thanks to all on this forum for recommendations about my pond. I will take some of my questions to another link. Before I leave this post though, I must say that it is pretty alarming that a field that is relitavely obscure, fish sellers, is so replete with dishonest or, at best, unethical people. I joined this forum about 15 years ago, stocked my pond, then left until this week. Unfortunately, it seems as though little has changed. I am not blaiming anyone here on the forums, your sage advise is greatly appreciated. However, some of these complaints about some of the fish sellers are not new. There were some bad things being said about the GG guy way back then and, even worse, there is another guy operating out of Arkansas who apparently still continues to offer the "Free Fish" scam, even as it appears after he has had more run-ins with the law (he was purported to have been in trouble with the law a few times 15 years ago too). I don't understand how these people can continue to operate year after year taking advantage of innocent, yet naive, people. Luckily for me, I managed to just barely escape doing business with these people. Thanks again to all of the honest guys out there.

What ever happened to the retired NASA guy in East Texas that had the GG pond, I been away too long and can't remember his name. Seems to me he had a very nice web site of his farm and was also raising HSB. Does he still give updates on his GG progress, did they grow to Bubba size yet?

Family, try this
http://www.meadowlarkponds.com/fish.htm

I'm not sure what is meant by "replete", but this forum is well populated with really honest and ethical fish sellers who I would trust with my money in a second. I think that, unfortunately, it is the few that are bad that get all the press and attention. It's too bad...and not fair.

I guess we're just like the media in general sometimes--we turn the bad things into headlines, but when someone like Todd Overton or Bob Lusk provides an amazing, thoughtful ethical service we just take it for granted and it never gets mentioned.

To second Bruce - yes, there are unethical people in the fish selling business, just like there are in any other. It has not been my take, however, that they represent more than a small fraction of the practitioners of this industry.

Now, that kind of behavior can't stand facing the light of day. Presenting all aspects of fish, ponds, etc. is what we try to do here at Pond Boss, so in dealing with professional fish sellers, aerators, chemical folks, etc. here, one tends to see the better side of the business. So maybe I've got a somewhat unjaded opinion. OTOH, EVERYONE could just deal with professionals that willingly appear in the light of day here - evaluating and judging by the experiences and info we share on and with them - and we'd likely all have better experiences with fish sellers, etc.

This may not be relevant, but was this forum here (15) years ago?

Anyway, I think Meadowlark has been happy with his Georgia Giants, but one has to remember that ML didn't buy into the whole Holyoke scam. ML bought what he knew to be an appropriate stocking amount, plus ML was educated regarding ponds.

On a funny note I had a guy in the Aquaculture business, after I told him about the incident at the R F F tell me that all of the people in the industry are disfunctional. I wonder if this goes for pondmeisters too? I know it applies to me.

Of course I don't condone bad business practices or dishonesty one bit.

New to this forum and website so I am not sure how to get my questions (which are many) in a new thread so I am jumping into this one. We have just purchased a piece of property in Southern Indiana that has a 4-5 acre lake. This lake is approx 30 yrs old. I am told that it is 34 ft deep in places. I know absolutely nothing about managing a body of water. So where do I start and in what priority?
The fish we have been catching are large except for the bass. The majority of the bass are in the 12 inch range but the crappie are on avg 16 inches long and the blugill are about about the size of my open hand. There has not been very many small fish caught. How do I learn what is in the lake?

Welcome to the PB Forum Wyatt.

Start with this thread from the archives on population analysis.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92492#Post92492

Then look through the archives for common questions and answers.

Here is a link to pond mgt info in your area. It is dated info but has some good basics.

http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/publications/fsmgt/fishmgt.pdf

Welcome Wyatt. I think we can help you with improving your 'new' pond.
I created a new topic for you in the Forum heading of Evaluating and Managing an Existing pond. You can find it using this link (below) or go to the Forum List (tool bar above), click it, then scroll down to Managing An Existing Pond, then choose Evaluating & Adjusting Fish Populations. Look for your new topic title of "Help For Second Hand Pond in Indiana" and click on it.

link to: Help for second hand pond in IN.
http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=112578#Post112578

Bruce I see this forum working, maybe just in a small way, to help shut down these "bad" fish dealers. Folks always ask the question how does Ken's stay in business with these pratices? It is simple his marketing is a good as it gets. There are enough pond owners out ther who would like to believe it. Then even if it does not work there was really not many place they could turn to get the "right" info. This is where PB has stepped in and why I Love this site so much. It is a watchdog or sorts for the as Bob calls it a cottage industry. If I do something bad to a client then he has all rights to post it here, just glad i do not have too many disssatisfied customers.

Somebody type in "Georgia Giants", "Georgia Giant Bream", or "Georgia Giant Growth Rates" in google, and see what happens. I think a certain unnamed member of Pond Boss is having a very positive effect on Pond Boss presence on search engines.

Bruce,

I tried that the day this thread started without results. Now it is number 5 on the first page of results, that should get the word out.

Would that be Barnes?

Try this link on previous discussion on Georgia Giant Bream.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=13069&fpart=2

Be nice to me, Theodocious. I've been in a bad place lately.

Hey man sorry to read about the bad customer service thing. I am a buisness owner myself and thats why i cant have crews working for me. But if your down around myrtle beach south carolina way i can give you plenty like whats in your picture. @ inch to 10 inch. I have some pictures of them in update on my pond on types of fish to chose. No cost just have to make your way to the beach. Its my uncles pond and he has thousands of these Hbg and georgia giants.

That's a great offer!

Wish I got down that way--I'd do it.

There is credible evidence that Barnes is really DB Cooper.

and they just found the parachute!

I suggest this one instead.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=58934&fpart=1

or this one

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=13069&fpart=1

Geez sorry I was not around for this one!

Well, it's your own dang fault Grandpa. Where have you been?

Bruce, I'm late getting on this band-wagon, but, one thing for sure, Ken's Fish Farm needs to revisit how they do business. I for one, would personally handle the negative calls or displeased customer (and as noted by others), make good the bad product. Sounds like the lady on the phone went beyond, way beyond, what she should have been saying in conversation, she should have been polite and passed you on to the Owners/Managers. I have Georgia Giants I bought locally here in Indiana and mine were healty and are actually doing excellent (they're huge and healty--I am pleased with them).

On the flip side, I must say I have bought fish locally and did have 100 of 700 die (bluegill) and they wouldn't make it good. You expect some to die but not that many. I won't name the supplier but yes, they made me feel like I was lying. Guess, bottom line it's money.

Hey Dave, Been busy keeping my head above water with this fun real estate market. Am going to start posting again.
Bruce as you know I am probably Kens biggest supporter on the board so I was disturbed to read how you were treated.We have never met face to face but your honesty would never be questioned.

It made me feel bad that they implied I was lying, but it made me feel a lot worse to hear that lady trash Deb the way she did. It's an old, and very poor business practice that I've seen before that when someone leaves an office that they are used as a scapegoat for existing problems.

I never really expounded on how much blame they were placing at Deb King's feet. She deserved better. She put a lot on the line for that business. Imagine how bad you'd feel if it was your wife or daughter that worked somewhere and then her name was dragged through the mud after she moved on.

They took me for a few hundred bucks, but that's a lot easier to replace than a reputation.

Thanks for this thread!!! I was waiting until next month and was actually going to purchase some fish from them. I dealt with Stephannie and she was very friendly and healthy. I have their catalog sitting on the table in the living room. Wow I can't believe this kind of shotty business is able to grow and keep stagging up unsuspecting people.

-RB

I actually bought some Georgia Giants two years ago along with other fish I put in our then new pond and quite honestly, two years later--they are doing very, very well. They are bigger and more aggressive and have surpassed the bluegill in size. I have read alot about the F1 and F2 and stuff like that so I know down-the-road I may have a correction to do in population. But in the interim, our pond is SO enjoyable and we are not disappointed in the Georgia Giants by far.

It is too bad that they handled this in such a poor manner. Ironically, they had a chance for a public relations windfall if they would have just honored their original agreement. I'm a positive person who likes to write positive stories, but this one was probably the worst I've ever been treated in a business transaction.

Mark, I have no question that hybrid sunfish can perform well if they have a good healthy start. I've seen it a hundred times. If you take a bluegill/green sunfish hybrid, and put it in a good pond with good water they'll take off like wildfire. It was never the fish I was disappointed in. It was the people who promised something to a customer, then backed out. Remember, the customer service rep for Ken's accused me of making the story up, even though I have the PM's and emails to prove her otherwise.

Guys have I ever showed you this GG ? There were more like this so I don't think it was an injury. I would never deal with that outfit on fish or mgt advice or service.



Mark I hope they keep working great for you. If you see any like this I would sure like a pic.

This "GG" = Georgia Gnat

Daaannggg!!! I just puked on my keyboard. That thing has the face of a goby. http://www.protectyourwaters.net/hitchhikers/images/gobylive.gif

Eric, did you see that fish first hand? Or in other words, did you order something from them?

No it came from a husband and wife who were new to ponds and ask for help after the fact. I had several pics from several sources and his and her written answers to a series of questions I asked wrt the pond. The fish had been in a new pond , about 3 mts IIRC from the source. The pics were new (1 day old) and did not appear to have been edited (size or appearance). The appearance of several of these type fish (see pic) is why they contacted me.

I did not order anything from them. I do have some horror stories that are unreported .

Whew! That's what I thought. But after Bruce and then ahvatsa ordered from these people, I started to wonder.

That looks like a Three Mile Island fish.

Bruce, When I first got my GG what was supposed to be like 2" were like minnows and i didn't suspect they would survive but did. I'll try to get some pictures for you when we catch some this weekend. None of mine looked like that picture you got beforehand--that's ugly looking/deformed fish--I suspect if there was one there were more like him.
I totally agree with you in the way you were treated, someone forgot that the 'customer is always right.' They need to suck it up that they (or even their employee) erred and make it right. I'm an honest rightheous person and I'd be extremely upset myself if someone indicated otherwise. You bet ya!

Wow, what a thread. Making a post just to bring it back to the top of the heap.

A bad thread, but I had considered trying GG's, have been on the forum a couple years, and did not know any of this. There are likely others in the same boat.

I thought all those type people had already gravitated to politics or international banking. Did not know they existed in the fish business.