Pond Boss
Posted By: interplexr Stocking before full pool reached - 09/28/14 01:26 PM
I finished building a 1.5 acre pond about a month ago. It's steadily filling and has 4-5 feet of water covering at least 0.75 acres so far. It has another 5 feet to fill. I am planning on stocking bluegill, shellcracker, and largemouth. I will be getting some flatheads, shellcracker, and bluegill this week. I won't stick the bass till next spring. I'm wondering if I should stock more than 200 total fish since the pond isn't full. The water has turned a nice deep green and there are plenty of bugs but I was worried about food availability. Should I stick with my plan or add 500 or 750 total? I was going to stock 5 pounds of flatheads as well. What are your thoughts?
Posted By: snrub Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 09/28/14 05:00 PM
I'm not an expert, but I would stock the full amount. Think about how small the initial fish are. Unless you think there is some reason the pond will be unusually slow to fill, the BOW should grow with the fish.

I stocked forage in March at 1/3 pool and was planning on stocking predators the next spring, but the BG and FHM grew and reproduced so well, stocked LMB and CC late that fall. Pond filled normally through the year.

For what it is worth, my experience.
Posted By: Rainman Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 09/28/14 05:56 PM
interplexr, assuming you are stocking fingerlings, you can stock at your full pool rate, now, on the forage fish.

How many predators (LMB) do you intend to stock? Your overall numbers seem a bit low to me for your BG and RES.

As snrub said, your pond will grow as your fish grow.
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 09/28/14 06:37 PM
Myself I would wait until spring to stock any fish. I saw $600.00 worth of fish disappear in a pond because of turbid water. Granted you say your pond is clearing up but what if you get a gully washer and it becomes muddy? Most fish are sight feeders and a new pond rarely has sufficient ground cover to prevent muddy water if you get a significant rainfall event.

Everybody can't wait to get the fish going in a pond but is it worth the chance? Your fish won't be doing any growing in the winter anyway and they certainly won't be reproducing.
Posted By: fish n chips Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 09/28/14 07:54 PM
And a third opinion- I would stock the FHM (fathead minnows) now and let them be in there to kick start the forage base, then stock in the spring.
Posted By: snrub Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 09/28/14 10:04 PM
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Your fish won't be doing any growing in the winter anyway and they certainly won't be reproducing.


Good point Cecil. My stocking at partial full pond was in the spring instead of the fall.

As fish n chips pointed out, FHM would not be much risk, and they might some of them still spawn yet this year.
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 09/29/14 01:07 AM
Originally Posted By: snrub
[quote=Cecil Baird1] Your fish won't be doing any growing in the winter anyway and they certainly won't be reproducing.


Originally Posted By: snrub
Good point Cecil. My stocking at partial full pond was in the spring instead of the fall.


I saw that.

Originally Posted By: snrub
As fish n chips pointed out, FHM would not be much risk, and they might some of them still spawn yet this year.


True.
Posted By: CJBS2003 Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 09/29/14 06:33 AM
Where in VA are you? What are the goals for the pond? Big bass, big sunfish, a balance? Do you plan to feed/aerate?
Posted By: interplexr Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 09/29/14 11:31 PM
I was going to up my order to 300 BG and 200 RES and stick with the 5lb of FHM. I'm in central VA. Upstream I have about 30 acres of pasture. I was surprised at how fast things cleared. It started pretty muddy after finishing the dirt work but within a week things settled on down. A real nice green has settled in and visibility is a couple feet. I don't eat fish but have a neighbor that will gladly harvest to keep things in check. My goals are more a healthy balance. I don't plan to aerate. I do plan to drain most of my overflow through my bottom drain with the rest through a surface drain. I'm working on plantings now for all my OBL plants in the inlet. I covered with cereal rye across all the above water surfaces and rye grass a few feet below full pool to help seal in the clay. That's all coming in nice. I'm looking to plant a mix of native grasses and flowers suited for the various moisture zones. I'm looking for a nice native habitat. I was going to put in 150 or so LMB. I believe that was the rate I read.

I'll try and post some pictures.
Posted By: interplexr Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 09/30/14 12:32 AM











Posted By: Caviler03 Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 09/30/14 12:48 PM
Interplexr - At what rate are you losing water?

I ask this because we are in a similar situation with our pond. It is 1.5 acres and has about 3 foot of water in some places covering close to an acre of surface area. We lose close to 2 inches every week. Im curious as to how "normal" this is due to the surrounding soil wicking and evaporation rates.
Posted By: interplexr Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 10/01/14 12:13 AM
We're pretty short on rain but I'm filling at a rate of about half an inch per day. I'm sure I'm losing water to saturation in the ground and evaporation but I'm not sure how much that is. I would guess the spring flowing in is probably 20ish gpm but that's just a guess. I don't see much seepage below the dam different than when the core was being put in and the stream was damned up farther back. You can see springs just feeding in all along the sides of the stream bank below the dam. I don't think I have anything going past the core. It was dug down 12 feet the entire width of the dam and back filled with good clay.
Posted By: interplexr Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 10/05/14 04:10 PM
I put the 200 RES, 300 BG, and 5lbs of FHM Friday. I've been adding some cover using rip rap, stumps and logs. I'd love some suggestions of additional things I could do. I just want to have a nice balance. The back end of the pond will be lilies and other water plants so should have lots of cover. I'm working on moving crusher run to the back as well to put in some of the flat areas the are a couple feet deep.

I've seen a few dead fish around which I assume is normal. I've only seen a couple BG or RES around the edges. Where do you think would be best to look for them? I'm guessing they might be hanging out at the big stumps in the middle with all the stringy roots?






Posted By: interplexr Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 10/18/14 01:50 AM
Thanks for all the replies!

Its been a couple weeks since I added the fish and its been raining quite a bit. The pond is up to just ender 2 feet below full pool now. Its back to muddy though but I suspect it'll clear up. The grass and cereal rye is coming in good now. It's averaging in the 60's during the day and down in the 40s and 50s at night.

I'm just curious now, is it normal to not see the fingerlings around the shoreline? I haven't really seen any fish since stocking. I saw a few here and there around the shore in the first week but nothing since. Is this common?
Posted By: snrub Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 10/18/14 03:48 AM
I put 100 CNBG and 200 RES in my sediment pond a few weeks ago and have only seen a couple fish in shallow water. This sediment pond is usually pretty low visibility water from recent rains and when it clears algae blooms.

I threw in a cast net a few times and came up with a few of the RES, so I know at least a few are still there.

Your fish are probably just fine.

I don't recall seeing a lot of the fish I stocked in the big pond last year in the beginning either.
Posted By: snrub Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 10/18/14 03:55 AM
If you will feed a small amount of food around the bank the fish eventually will get used to it and come around for the feed. Especially the FHM. Don't expect to see much of the RES. The BG will take a while longer.

Don't get carried away. Just small amounts till they get used to knowing what the feed is and where to get it. Once they get used to it, the FHM will go crazy over it and push pellets all over the pond. They are kind of fun to watch.
Posted By: esshup Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 10/18/14 04:43 AM
As the water cools in the fall, the fish will seek out warmer water, and that is usually not around the shoreline.

So, I'd say it's normal to not see fish in the pond this time of the year unless they are feed trained and still coming to the pellets.
Posted By: interplexr Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 10/19/14 03:10 AM
I was hoping they were all just out around the structure in more of the center of the pond where I just can't see unless I get out there somehow. Thanks!

On another note, I have an 8" pipe through the bottom of my pond that I necked down to 4" with a ball valve and after that I'm planning to split with a 4" T and cap with a 1.5" ball valve coming out to allow most of my flow out through this pipe and my normal pool overflow to just make up the difference. I have a pretty constant 20 GPM or higher flow. It seems to drop down around 20 GPM after sustained low rain conditions and then goes up after rain. I figured I can at least pull some water off the bottom but the 4" ball valve is to big to throttle hence the T and smaller valve. I probably have 10 feet or so of head. What do ya'll do in the winter if you have water in the pipe? I figure the flow will be enough to keep it from freezing but do you cover/insulate the pipe in any way. I'm in central VA so we can get down pretty cold. We were in the single digits a few times earlier this year.....
Posted By: interplexr Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 05/17/15 05:35 PM
Update: Now that it's warmed up the fish I stocked last fall while filling are really active. FHMs are spawning like crazy and now have fry everywhere you look. The bluegill are jumping left and right. I haven't seen the shell crackers but I'm not sure they would hangout near shore. Tadpoles are a thick black mat and bull frogs are just lazily floating around. I've seen a green and blue heron fishing a few times. A couple mallards have already found the pond as well. Unfortunately, so have a couple geese....

Would it be wiser to stock the LMB this fall or wait till spring still? I figure the bluegill will start spawning soon as they are growing fast.


Posted By: sprkplug Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 05/17/15 11:20 PM
What size are your bluegills now, and what size LMB do you intend to stock?
Posted By: interplexr Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 05/18/15 12:57 AM
I would guess around 2 to 3 inches. I need to catch a couple and see for sure. I haven't thought about size for the LMB. I guess I would stock 100 fingerlings. My goals are still just a balanced environment. Does this seem reasonable. I assume you can't have to many minnows?
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 05/18/15 01:33 AM
Sounds like a lot of bass for the number of BG and RES you stocked earlier. Might you be a little light on their numbers? You don't want to stock LMB that are large enough to decimate the BG right off the bat.
Posted By: basslover Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 05/18/15 01:41 AM
Unless you love geese consider doing everything you can to drive them away and out ASAP.

Geese ... uffa!
Posted By: interplexr Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 05/18/15 10:07 AM
I was light on the bream and minnows. I'm ok waiting till next year on the bass to let numbers build. Would that make more sense then?

I'm doing what I can to deter the geese. I run them off every time I'm there but we haven't started on our house yet so I'm not there every day. I'm keeping the grass really high around to help deter them. I planted native prairie grass on the dam so there isn't much there yet other than seedlings and some tall cover. The ducks are scratching up piles of straw but that's ok since seedlings are coming up and the straw isn't preferred for a prairie planting. I was just concerned with erosion so it put it down with a winter eye cover last fall and oats this spring. The rye didn't come up well so again, concerned about erosion while my natives come up. If it works out it will be nice and worth it but at this point I'm wishing I had just planted grass.....
Posted By: interplexr Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 06/02/15 02:05 AM
Based on having stocked on the light side last fall (300 BG, 200 RES, 5lb FHM, I'm trying to figure my next move to finish stocking with LMB. It sounds like 100 is to many so I'm back down to around 50 for this 1.5 acre pond?

The FHM are spawning all over the place. I have not seen any BG spawn but I'm not sure I would know the difference. I do see a school of BG hanging out in the past couple weeks at the one corner of my dam. I would guess they are at least 3" if not bigger. I have not caught any to see. In the pictures above, its the corner in the bottom left with the lines of rocks. The water is up past the straw so I'd say the top of those lines are at least 3 feet under and not visible. My dog always walked in this corner and I have as well planting so there are all kinds of small round spots in the mud so I can't tell if they are nests. The BG dart all around and at each other in this corner. There are minnows closer to the shore from them. I couldn't decide if they were spawning or feeding.

I have been working on trying to establish lilies without a lot of luck so far (another post). I have had good luck getting iris, rushes, sedges, picklerweed, duck potato, swamp milkweed, and some other plants going in the back end but they aren't established well in the water yet for much cover. The back portion of the pond was kept between 1-3 feet for lots of vegetation. I have high hopes of for the view of all the plants and wildlife they attract and should provide good forage cover. That's my thinking anyway. The only other cover I have is the rock piles, lines and stumps in the pictures. I have some longer logs floating around as well. A little green heron loves the one.

Based on all this information in my rambling, should I stock LMB fingerlings this summer/fall or wait till next spring? I'm in no rush. I just want to make sure things stay somewhat in balance.

Thanks for all the input and thoughts. I don't know what I'd do without this forum!
Posted By: Pat Williamson Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 06/02/15 02:29 AM
I think based on what happened at my pond I would get a huge forage base going before adding the preds. They are eating machines and can decimate the fat head population in a hurry
Posted By: Bill D. Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 06/02/15 02:37 AM
I am a firm believer that FHM swim around with the old sign from the 70's on their backs that says "Eat Me"! Gotta love those old Hippie FHM thou.
Wait to stock the LMB and see if you can't add another couple hundred bluegill. If you bluegill are 2-3" I don't think they will be doing a whole lot of spawning yet. You might need to wait to stock LMB until next summer. The longer you wait the better.
Posted By: interplexr Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 06/02/15 09:11 PM
I have no worries waiting. I was worried about waiting to long and the BG getting out of hand. Will they do much to the FHM? I can always add more BG next time Fish Wagon is around. I was going to try and catch a few BG and see how big they've gotten. I just can't figure out what they're doing in that corner. I don't see them anywhere else except around a log or jumping away from shore, probably over the stumps. If I just waited until next year I should have BG spawning before the year is out plus more vegetation cover.
Posted By: interplexr Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 07/10/15 10:57 PM
I caught a few bluegills and they are in the 5" range. I tried to shoot a video. I think this is spawning behavior. What do you think?

[video:youtube]https://youtu.be/SoqnYkHX8Mw[/video]
Posted By: snrub Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 07/10/15 11:45 PM
Yep. Males guarding the nests they have prepared. They could be waiting for a suitable female to spawn with, or they could have already spawned and are guarding and fanning the eggs or guarding fry.

If you have a mask and snorkel, you can carefully slip into the water and observe up close. Just move slow and approach the nests slow. The BG may flee temporarily but will return promptly. Be prepared to get a nip or two from particularly aggressive males, trying to run you off.

Once you are there and hold still for a while, they will get used to you. Just pick a single nest to concentrate on, park your face about a foot or two from the nest, and lay there motionless. The male will dart away but will be back within a few seconds. If he does not come back, back off a little farther and he will. Then you can slowly advance as he gets braver with you.

I was snorkeling with a dive buddy at his vacation home in Cape Cod a couple weeks ago at one of the local glacier created ponds. We saw numerous Pumpkinseed on the nest, one with eggs in the bottom of the nest, and possibly another with fry. I could not tell if the one with fry belonged to the PS nearby or a LMB nearby. The fry were as small as knats. Aslo found a few LMB on the nests and one male LMB guarding a nest full of slightly larger fry. Were hundreds if not thousands.

Cool stuff. Get you a mask and snorkel and get right in there with them. Move carefully so as to not muck up the water. No need for fins cause all the action will be in water you can stand up in.
Posted By: snrub Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 07/11/15 12:09 AM
For anyone wanting to try the interaction with your spawning fish with a mask and snorkel, I have a few tips.

Be sure any mask you buy has a glass, not plastic, faceplate. Only the ultra cheap ones will be plastic and they are worthless. No way I know of to keep them from fogging up. If it says "tempered" it is glass.

When you get the mask home, take a tooth brush and tooth paste and scrub the glass. During mfg glass sometimes is left with a residue that will cause fogging. The glass needs to be ultra clean to not fog.

When you get to the water, either take some commercial anti-fog drops you can buy in a dive shop, or do the old fashion way and spit in the mask. Rub the drops or spit around vigorously until the glass squeaks. This means the glass is clean. Give it one dip in the water to rinse the cleaner or spit off. Don't use gobs of mask defog. Its purpose is to clean the lens, not coat it. Mask defog will actually make fogging worse if it is not rinsed off. Perfectly clean glass is glass that will not fog. Ok, enough long winded explanation of such a simple but needed task. A foggy mask sucks and you can't see much.

Get a snorkel so you are not constantly having to lift your head for air. With a snorkel you can comfortably lay your head in the water and observe motionless. Motionless is the key. Fish will get used to you and may even start checking you out. Safety tip: wear a tee shirt. Nipples look like something to eat to a bluegill. A large BG can give you quite an unpleasant surprise when least expecting it. One grandson did not listen when I suggested he swim with a tee shirt. Snorkels are made anything from a simple tube to fancy "dry" snorkels. The reality? It does not make a lot of difference. They all work.

You can get a marginally decent silicone mask from the big box stores with snorkel included for probably 25-40 bucks. They are quite ok for an occasional use. A really good mask and snorkel that will last for many years from a dive shop will set you back $75-125. You get what you pay for, but for just wanting to try something out, the package sets at the big box stores are servicable and not a bad deal for the occasional use.

For those of you who like to swim in your pond and like to observe fish in your pond, by all means in the warm weather take advantage of a mask and snorkel and interact with your fish. You will be glad you did! Males on the nest are the easiest time to observe them. They are much more spooked at other times and are much harder to view up close. The small fish seem to be easy to find about any time and will be pecking on your mask, ears, hair and where ever if you hold still. Holding still and letting the fish come to you is the key. Trying to approach or find a fish by swimming at it is hopeless.

Hope this helps.
Posted By: interplexr Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 03/01/16 02:34 AM
I still haven't stocked the LMB but am still looking to do that this spring unless I should wait longer.

I've been reading more and more and now am wondering if I should be stocking more things. My goals are still to not have trophy anything. I'm just wanting a nice balance that supports lots of wildlife. My fingers are crossed the mallards and wood duck I have seen lately will stay around this year. I will harvest fish as needed, or let my neighbor do it.

Should I be looking at other types of minnows aside from the FHM that probably won't last after the LMB are in? What about grass shrimp or crayfish? Any other things along this line?

I know there was at least 1 large crayfish I dug up when the pond was first built by accident. I have no idea if there are anything in there now unless crayfish were responsible for cutting the leaves off my lilies! I never found the culprit but they quit getting cut towards the end of last summer. I wasn't paying much mind at the time but there were tons of crustacean looking tiny things around rock piles when the pond was filling. I don't see anything now. I'm not sure what those were.

I'm in central VA. I should probably stop trolling around on here and finding more things I should be getting into all the time around this pond!
Posted By: ewest Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 03/02/16 06:29 PM
You have had a BG spawn. You are a little north of some posting here so stocking is a bit different. I would suggest given your situation that you check reputable hatcheries in your area and look to buy 25 6 inch LMB. That is enough to start with. Be sure the hatchery knows you need about 50% males and females ie first stocking. IMO it is late given your situation and your area to stock 2 in LMB fingerlings. It could be done but the results would be highly variable. Not near as much risk at this point in stocking fewer but larger LMB.
Posted By: interplexr Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 03/02/16 11:02 PM
What are the downsides stocking the fingerling LMB? Will the BG just overwhelm them since they will really be spawning this spring?

Does anyone have any recommendations for a good hatchery around central VA?

Thanks!
Posted By: Bill D. Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 03/02/16 11:21 PM
Originally Posted By: interplexr
.....Should I be looking at other types of minnows aside from the FHM that probably won't last after the LMB are in? What about grass shrimp or crayfish? Any other things along this line? .....


IP,

I'm bumping this question that you had because I think it is an excellent one. IMO now is the time to do that, instead of later when you have LMB already in the pond. I see you have rock piles, so I would stock crayfish. I would also stock another minnow species that will be more likely to survive than FHM. I don't know which one(s) would be best in your area. IMO scuds and/or grass shrimp would also be good additions.

I am not a pro but, hopefully, one will jump in with some good advice.

Good Luck! Exciting time!
Posted By: interplexr Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 03/03/16 02:02 AM
Would the mix of snails, daphnia, and crayfish from Zetts be a good addition? I'm still holding out hope that painted turtles will show up on their own.
Posted By: ewest Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 03/03/16 10:37 PM
Originally Posted By: interplexr
What are the downsides stocking the fingerling LMB? Will the BG just overwhelm them since they will really be spawning this spring?

Does anyone have any recommendations for a good hatchery around central VA?

Thanks!


There can be several. They all have to do with the risk of an adverse situation arising from the stocking of 2 inch LMB (either to many LMB or to few even down to 0 surviving year 1). In northern ponds (you are likely in-between Northern and southern)BG tend to get ahead of LMB when stocked ahead which can lead to stunted BG populations or even no LMB recruitment as a result. If the BG are big they may even eat the 2 in LMB. In this situation the risk is high that you will end up not satisfied (either to many or to few LMB surviving to reproduce successfully). If you use larger but fewer LMB those risks are greatly reduced. A 6 inch LMB will likely survive while 2 inch you just don't know. If on the other hand all or most of the 2 inch LMB survive to reproduce you may quickly be overrun with LMB that are overcrowded.

Check on Dave Beasley here and tell him Pond Boss said call !

David Beasley
http://www.zoominfo.com/p/David-Beasley/1470201521
Posted By: interplexr Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 03/09/16 03:56 AM
What exactly is LMB recruitment? I'm not sure I understand the concept. I looked it up and found neat articles but I'm still not sure I'm fully understanding. Basically though, I gather it's a crap shoot with the 2" LMB. It might work out great or I might end up with BG preying on them till they were gone or all of them survive on the abundant FHM and grow fast which would leave me with to many LMB. My thoughts had been to stock 50 fingerling bass but I'll try and get a hold of Dave if I can figure out the link.

I just want balance with fishing to remove the right amount to help maintain balance. A natural habitat with abundant wildlife and plants to enjoy is the goal.
Posted By: Dave Davidson1 Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 03/09/16 11:43 AM
Essentially, to me, recruitment is the spawning, stocking, replenishment and growing process of any fish or other species. Beasley can probably say it better. A 2 inch bass can be prey for big bluegills and it's a crap shoot. But, some generally survive predation, injury, etc.

Think of this. 98+% of all eggs laid never make it to spawning size fish. If you put a bunch of bass fingerlings in a grow out tank, they will eat each other.

In Texas, our problem is generally too much lmb survival and we come up with ponds that are lmb heavy and forage light. If you stock 50 you might get a dozen spawning machines or just possibly none. Due to long growing seasons, we have to start and continue culling bass after the 2nd year on new ponds.
Posted By: Rainman Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 03/09/16 01:48 PM
As I understand it, "Recruitment" is the number of fish that survive to year 1 and beyond. If 1000 eggs hatch, but all the fry get eaten in the first year, that would be zero "recruitment". If only 10 out of the 1000 survive the first year, those 10 are the "recruitment".
Posted By: ewest Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 03/09/16 03:53 PM
"Recruitment" is simply one egg/fish living long enough to be an adult- reproduce (reproduction is an indicator of adulthood). It can be one year or longer (LMB up north) or shorter (a BG down south in some cases or tilapia). One fish living long enough to reproduce its own kind.
Posted By: interplexr Re: Stocking before full pool reached - 04/14/16 01:32 AM
I contacted Dave Beasley at Solitude Lake Management and they just delivered and put in 50 4-5" LMB. 50/50 male/female. They we great to work with! I appreciate the recommendation. I got good information along with some good looking LMB!
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