I am a new pond owner trying to get more and larger Bass in the pond. Here is a list of things on the agenda for 2011
1. Thinking of making the pond larger.
2. Adding aeration system
3. trapping bluegill and sunfish to remove the over crowed pond
4. Adding large mouth bass in August.
Glad to be apart of Pondboss and looking forward to all the things I can learn.
Thanks,
-Dan
All of those things sound good. How big is the pond?
7 acres - could make it up to 12 if I get a good digging rate. Have to wait till June on that one.
I am a new pond owner trying to get more and larger Bass in the pond. Here is a list of things on the agenda for 2011
1. Thinking of making the pond larger.
2. Adding aeration system
3. trapping bluegill and sunfish to remove the over crowed pond
4. Adding large mouth bass in August.
Glad to be apart of Pondboss and looking forward to all the things I can learn.
Thanks,
-Dan
Dan,
First, welcome to Pond Boss.
It sounds like you have an existing pond with stunted bluegill. How big is the present pond, and what is in it besides pure-strain bluegill? Are there other sunfish types? Are there any predators, like northern pike or walleye?
Next, what part of the state are you located in? The northern third of Wisconsin has far different fish growing conditions compared to the southern third of the state.
Again, depending on what part of the state you are in, I'm not sure I would add largemouth bass in August. I think I'd want to have lots of forage for the bass before subjecting them to a long and severe winter. I guess it depends on the quantity of small sunfish/bluegill. If you have an extremely large forage base, maybe now is the time to add the bass so they can become fat before the ice forms. If not, you may want to think about adding a forage species like fathead minnows now, and adding the bass early next spring.
I'd also suggest you contact Pond Boss friend Bob Robinson in Prescott, WI (715-262-4488, sales@kascomarine.com). Bob knows more about Wisconsin pond management than anybody. If you are thinking about aeration, he should be your first and most trusted contact. The guy is an incredible resource for all-things-ponds in Wisconsin.
Let's see what others chime in with. Other ideas?
Ken
Pond Size - 7 Acres
Fish types - Bluegill, Green Sun fish, Black Crappie, Largemouth Bass - Caught a 12.5inch crappie last week.
Located in Central Wisconsin - middle of state - 1hr South of Wausau and 2 hours north of Madison.
Thanks - I'll Give Bob a call on the aeration.
There used to be more Bass - not exacly sure what happen. But want to get more of them and larger Bass.
Thanks for reading.
My guess is that somebody took out way too many bass, letting the bluegill, green sunfish, and crappie get out of control. Especially the crappie, but to a certain extent, the green sunfish, are probably taking out the year-of-young bass.
You probably have a couple of choices. None are quick.
One is to completely kill the pond and start over.
The second is to add a lot of large bass, but they may not be able to overcome large populations of crappie and green sunfish.
In your part of the country, is there any chance you could plant a small number of hybrid (tiger) musky? They won't reproduce, but they can do a pretty good job of cleanup on what is in the pond. You would just have to have a plan to get them out of the pond, or they will become the top predator, and you still won't have bass.
Definitely give Bob a call. I believe he can make some good suggestions on getting your fish population under control.
Your really in a tricky situation.. I think even if you stock a large amount of large bass (expensive time consuming) your still gonna have problems.. Crappie will compete with LMB and they will out breed anything in your pond so your not gonna get ahead.. If your planning on enlarging the pond I'd seriously consider killing off everything and starting fresh, sounds harsh but that way you get what you want and know exactly what you have..
Plover??
The suggestions are sound. The biggest problem is the crappie. They spawn before the LMB and the YOY crappie will eat the YOY LMB.
Personally, I would do a complete pond renovation and start over. The agony and headaches involved in trying to fix the problem will be worse than the patience required to start all over and wait for your newly stocked fish to grow. Plus, I believe it'll be cheaper to poison and restock rather than try to renovate the current fish population... This is predicated on the knowledge that however those unwanted species(GSF, BC) got in there, will not get back into the pond after renovation.
If you do not go the fish poison route, I would highly recommend you invest in a couple of fyke/hoops nets. These are the least utilized method of fish management but IMO the most efficient and effective in removing the exact fish you want and only those fish... They capture everything. However, you can release the species and sizes you want released and those you want removed can be taken out... There are several companies that sell them, if interested I can provide a list.
Relying on high end predatory species like large Esox(pike and musky) carries risks. They often don't want to cooperate by eating what they want to eat, not necessarily the species and size of fish you want them to eat. However, you have a large enough pond that they are certainly an option with proper management if you don't want to go the fyke/hoop net route.
Thanks for the input. I didn't know until now that the BC would kill off the Bass young. That sounds like what may have happen.
Thanks again for putting the killing/restocking option out there. I had thought about it...but didn't want to do it of course since it's 7 acres.
This is a tuff one. ....
I do have a bait trap that I am catching bluegill and GSF in, trying to kill off as many as I can.
So If I don't get rid of the BC I will always be playing the balance game with the Bass? I am guessing I can't over fish the BC since that isn't a reliable option for year after year?
I went to UWSP.
You are correct. It will take a LOT of fishing pressure to reduce the BC, and they will always be unpredictable due to their boom or bust spawning.
If the funds are there, I'd drain the pond down as far as possible, then kill it with rotenone and do a follow up with hydrated lime. That's the surest way to get back on track quickly. It may take years to get the crappie fished out, and you might never accomplish your goals.
Draining the pond as far as you can will reduce the amount of $$ spent on poison, and will help you ensure that you poison all the areas that fish are congregating in.
You could drain it down, and see if the fisheries dept at Point would like to seine the pond as a class exercise. Then you'd have even less fish to worry about killing.
I went to UWSP.
Nice - you know my area.
You are correct. It will take a LOT of fishing pressure to reduce the BC, and they will always be unpredictable due to their boom or bust spawning.
If the funds are there, I'd drain the pond down as far as possible, then kill it with rotenone and do a follow up with hydrated lime. That's the surest way to get back on track quickly. It may take years to get the crappie fished out, and you might never accomplish your goals.
Draining the pond as far as you can will reduce the amount of $$ spent on poison, and will help you ensure that you poison all the areas that fish are congregating in.
You could drain it down, and see if the fisheries dept at Point would like to seine the pond as a class exercise. Then you'd have even less fish to worry about killing.
Pond isn't seine able - the make up just isn't do-able, but good idea.
I am running a bait trap now - was hoping I could cut into the numbers this year. We all do remember this is a 7 acre pond right? That's a lot of water and it's spring feed. It takes almost a week to get it down 3 feet.
Your really in a tricky situation.. I think even if you stock a large amount of large bass (expensive time consuming) your still gonna have problems.. Crappie will compete with LMB and they will out breed anything in your pond so your not gonna get ahead.. If your planning on enlarging the pond I'd seriously consider killing off everything and starting fresh, sounds harsh but that way you get what you want and know exactly what you have..
I wasn't able to find adult LMB in my area - seemed that I had to get them from West coast and wait till August. What do you do in your parts? Are there more fish farms around?
Yeah, I know 7 ac is a lot of water. There are PTO driven pumps for some tractors that move a LOT of water, but it all depends on how much is coming in from the springs.
Have you tried keystone hatchery? They are just South of the Wi. border.
http://keystonehatcheries.com/largemouth-bass-0 All you need is LMB that are big enough to avoid predation from your other LMB in the pond. Say, 1/3 the length or slightly longer than the larger LMB in your pond now. You could stock smaller ones, but some will get eaten by the LMB in the pond now. 50 per acre would be a good starting point, depending on how many LMB per acre you think you have in there now.
Yeah, I know 7 ac is a lot of water. There are PTO driven pumps for some tractors that move a LOT of water, but it all depends on how much is coming in from the springs.
Have you tried keystone hatchery? They are just South of the Wi. border.
http://keystonehatcheries.com/largemouth-bass-0 All you need is LMB that are big enough to avoid predation from your other LMB in the pond. Say, 1/3 the length or slightly longer than the larger LMB in your pond now. You could stock smaller ones, but some will get eaten by the LMB in the pond now. 50 per acre would be a good starting point, depending on how many LMB per acre you think you have in there now.
I tired them last year - but they get them from a guy that sells his Bass to a different market and he didn't have any left from what I was told.
What about the BC in the pond. Won't BC eat 3-4inch bass?
My guess is that somebody took out way too many bass, letting the bluegill, green sunfish, and crappie get out of control. Especially the crappie, but to a certain extent, the green sunfish, are probably taking out the year-of-young bass.
You probably have a couple of choices. None are quick.
One is to completely kill the pond and start over.
The second is to add a lot of large bass, but they may not be able to overcome large populations of crappie and green sunfish.
In your part of the country, is there any chance you could plant a small number of hybrid (tiger) musky? They won't reproduce, but they can do a pretty good job of cleanup on what is in the pond. You would just have to have a plan to get them out of the pond, or they will become the top predator, and you still won't have bass.
Definitely give Bob a call. I believe he can make some good suggestions on getting your fish population under control.
How do people remove Tiger musky?
What about Walleye - Will they eat BG,GSF, and BC?
Maybe putting 200 of them in would help.?.?
Tiger musky(TM) are generally removed by angling. They show hybrid vigor and are often quite aggressive. Angling for them is fairly easy, especially in a lightly fished private pond where they do not receive heavy pressure. So it is possibly to utilize them as a predator to remove fish and once they get to a size where they start to cause issues, you can remove them via angling. Nate Herman a member on here seems to be using this method effectively, I think more with pike though, maybe if he sees this post he'll chime in.
Walleye(WE) will eat BG, GSF and BC. However, WE have fairly small mouths and are limited in the size of those species they can eat. I would not expect them to make much of a dent in any of those populations. If anything, they will be competition for food resources.
Tiger musky(TM) are generally removed by angling. They show hybrid vigor and are often quite aggressive. Angling for them is fairly easy, especially in a lightly fished private pond where they do not receive heavy pressure. So it is possibly to utilize them as a predator to remove fish and once they get to a size where they start to cause issues, you can remove them via angling. Nate Herman a member on here seems to be using this method effectively, I think more with pike though, maybe if he sees this post he'll chime in.
Walleye(WE) will eat BG, GSF and BC. However, WE have fairly small mouths and are limited in the size of those species they can eat. I would not expect them to make much of a dent in any of those populations. If anything, they will be competition for food resources.
Thanks for the post!
I never thought about WE mouth size, always figured they have large teeth they will eat lots. Good point, thanks!
I had a local fish guy tell me I need a fish to eat heavy year round - so Bass eat heavy june to oct then have walleye eat oct to may.
Also found out I have bullheads - removed 4 today - bummer.
Removed 206 total fish so far this year another 4,800 to go.
4,800? I think you need a lot of friends and a fyke net.
I'm using a "bait" trap to catch the fish. It's a lot cheaper than a fyke net. And we are fishing at least twice a week. Just got 36 fish this morning in the trap.
QUESTION: What is this fish?
To me it appears to be a LMB crossed with a GSF? Anyone else have any idea what this is?
I cropped a hand out of some of the pictures.
The pictures are of pure strain green sunfish. GSF.
IMO you should be looking for 6"-8" LMB - some 10" if they have them. Keep in touch with Keystone hatcheries and Nate Herman as to their status of larger bass (6"-10"), often avilability changes in the hatchery business. YOur pond could have had a partial winter kill or numerous spawning failures due to over crowded sunfish /BCrappie to the point of eventually eating all the bass eggs and fry during the past 4-6 yrs. Thus as LMB died &/or were harvested few if any new LMB were recruited leading to few bass and over abundant smaller fish. 7 ac is quite a bit of water to get back into shape - 'balance'. It will take a quite a bit of effort and expense to manage it back into balance. Expanding it to 12 acres will not make it easier to manage.
Bill those are pure GSF? I will have to post another picture in a day or so of another fish that is a sunfish of sorts and hope you can tell me what it is.
Thank you for all the information about the LMB. I called keystone last week Thursday and there was a waiting list. I will get on the list tuesday 1st thing. Only problem is getting them from IL to WI. I'll have to make a few tanks with aerators for the long trip.
In your guess after adding 160 8-10" LMB this year and 200 3-4" LMB this year - how long to see a turn around? 1 yr? 2yr?
Yes IMO those are pure GSF. YOur other fish may be some hybrid bluegill you are seeing? IMO and experience I would not stock any 3"-4" LMB until you are seeing numerous new sunfish 1" long. Until then the new fingerling bass will not compete very well with the existing larger sunfishes and smallest bass will have very poor survival due to lack of invertebrate food and competition from too many starving sunfish 3"-5" long. You will be much better off spending that money to buy more 7"-8" LMB, especially if you are catching in traps 2"-3" sunfish/BG.
Often the hatchery is delivering in our area / region and you can meet the fish truck somewhere.
How long to see a turn around? Depends on how you define a turn around. IMO significiant progress is when you see numerous bass fingerlings naturally produced in your pond. If numerous sunfish are not removed at the same time then turn around will be slower. Seven acres is a lot of water to get back into balance due to the tremendous numbers of over populated sunfish you are dealing with. One acre is one thing and 7 ac is a significantly greater task. I think your goal while supplimentally stocking bass should be to remove 300-400 small sunfish per acre (2100-3000). Balance will be achieved quicker if you stock another 60-80 6"-8" LMB next year (2012). Maybe now readers will better realize the value of 25-30 LMB per acre, esp when a pond is overpopulated with sunfish/BG.
In your trapping do you have any idea of the ratio of BG:Sunfish (non-BG) that you are catching. Separate, count, and determine the ratio. It will also help to categorize them by size assuming your trap has a 3"-4" high opening. Are you using a larger trap?
I have attached the other sunfish we have. Please let me know what you think these are.
I'll check on delivery but I am a long way from them.
Great - I was thinking close to 5,000 fish to remove so I am in line with your thinking. I'll see what I can get from Keystone for pounds of LMB Tuesday.
Yes - in my trapping my ratio is 1 BG for every 3 sunfish. So 1:3 That isn't counting bullheads I have a total of 34 bullheads in 4 days.
The trap is 2 foot square and 11" high. I modified the trapp to have 2 6inch openings and kept the orginal 4-3inch openings.
I have a 2nd trap coming that is larger all around.
I am keeping as much data as I can think of to help me in my process.
Thanks again for reading this! I am really on the right track now. I am at 373 total fish removed for 2011 and counting. so 1 of 7 ac done.
Your "other fish" is a warmouth... Another big mouthed competitor to young bass.
I'm so confused - If the 4 pictures I posted either are GSF and the "other fish" is a War mouth. I do a google images search and war mouth comes back as my 1st 4 pictures and I do a GSF google images search and I get pictures of the "other fish"
THe "other fish" picture is over populated - it's a sunfish - is this normal?
Well, no matter what Google says, the first fish is a GSF.
I can't tell from the pic what the other fish is. Travis, how are you identifying it?
Called Keystone - They think they are out. They wrote my name down in case something changes.
So any other hatchery that have 8 inch or better bass in the midwest?
Found This Farm:
http://www.roeselerfarms.comPhone:
920-696-3090
Wisconsin
He currently has 6-9 inch LMB. I got my order in, I am pumped. Can't wait to see those Bass start eatting.
I would like to see a shaper image of the other fish and maybe one that is a little closer of the head. Technically the upper jaw length of a warmouth should extend backward to the middle of the eye. I don't see that occurring in the other fish photo. Warmouth do occur in WI.
For the LMB, possibly Rainman will be making a delivery to WI soon or this fall. Also check with Nate Herman. They may be able to deliver you fish included in another order.
If you want second opinions of google fish identifications provide links. Beware of Google images.
Roeseler's fish farm appears okay. They have 6"-9" LMB at $2.00ea which is a decent price. I would contact them to see what they say about availability and delivery. Very good chance the LMB will be all close to 6"-7" and not 8"-9". Note their picture of a hybrid bluegill appears to me a female pure stain BG. Ask if you can get some 8"-10" LMB at maybe a higher price. Maybe they can grow you some larger bass 10"-12" for this fall.
Are you measuring any of the sunfish you are trapping? For LMB to eat them the bass needs to be at least 3 times longer that the sunfish. 2.5"-3" sunfish are eaten by 9"-12" LMbass.
I'll get a better image in a day or 2 I hope.
The 6-9 LMB are actually 3.50 each and that is the biggest he has.
He coming Thursday with 100 LMB 6-9inches. I know, I know I need more then that for 7 Ac but this is a low budget operation. I am going to contuine to trap and get smaller LMB later this month which are super cheap. This should maybe get me different age classes.
I also have to buy a pump for aeration so that cuts into budget also.
I'll start measuring the fish we remove. When we are in the boat there are 50 to 100 small 1 - 2inch BG/Sunfish next to boat just there looking at us. I hope the LMB eat LOTS!
Thanks Bill!
Let us know how big the 6"-9" bass are. Note how many are 9". $3.50 ea is a more realistic price in todays market.
Really? Measure all of them? What is that going to tell me?
I would have to put them in a tub/tank then take them out 1 by 1 and measure them, then release them into the pond. ? I guess I was just thinking dump them in?
No, don't measure every one. Look at them and pick out what appears to be a larger one to measure. This fish can even be removed from the hatchery / truck dip net. sometimes the driver will show you a larger one or the size range - just ask. You are the customer with the money, not them. Then just estimate what percent are that large? Are most 5.5"-6", a few 7"-8" and none larger OR are most 8"-9". I am just curious /nosey about what general sizes you are getting for $3.50ea. Very often sellers provide the smaller size in listed size range. There is quite a big difference between a 6" and a 9" bass. Nine inch bass will eat a noticably larger BG compared to a 5"-6" bass.
Ok, I understand now. I'll give details after the drop off.
Glad to hear - when I was handling them they were sure full of life. I was told that they are 2yr old Bass and some might spawn this year as a few had fat bellys.
It's hard to tell with the fish on a white background to see if the dorsal, anal and caudal fins have a slight yellow margin, but if I had to guess I'd say RES on the "other" fish. Both fish look like they are a bit under weight - large eyes for the body, and more elongnated vs. vertical body depth.
The other fish look like some sort of hybrid sunfish to me. I still can not get a good look at the upper jaw. Those bass will have to survive on and get 'going' utilizing 1"-2" sunfish-BG. I hope there are plenty of them for those bass to eat. YOur water appears clear enough for the bass to adequately see and catch small fish. if those bass get enough food they should be 9" by mid October. Catch a few then and check for growth.
The other fish does look like a hybrid sunfish of some mix. Which, I am not sure. Those bass look nice! I hope they produce the way you want them to.
Note: CJ and I are both strongly guessing without clearly seeing the fish and knowing what brood stock are in the pond.
I had to laugh - I would bet money I won't be able to catch a bass later this year. As soon as you put the hook in the water you have a fish on- yes with no bait. But I will try, I have little hope. And there just isn't enough Bass yet...
Here are a few videos. Since my picture taking hasn't been any good. 2 of the pond which I promised a while back, There is more pond to the left and right but not able to get it all from this viewing location. 2 of the "other fish" with 4 BG. Please let me know your thoughts. I hope I got all the angles of the "other fish"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOI5GF88D_I Pond - View 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTPPbdLIlKA Pond - view 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6agqI48dWB8Other fish close up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvcOesLDMuQother fish and BG
Got a call from Keystone today - they do have LMB left - 8-10" range is what I am told. I just got 150LMB - so not going to get any. Thanks to everyone that pointed me to Keystone, they are on my list for next year.
Any thoughts on the videos I posted above?
Those 8"-10" Keystone bass would do better job of eating the small size of BG in your video. The other fish in the video looked like a HBG to me. It would have been better if the camera was held still in one close up spot instead of panning all around. But IMO you have HBG.
Bill,Bill you are killing me. Can't do the 8-10" this year. Well next year maybe I can do the keystone route and have a larger tank to get 50 pounds.
Here are 2 pictures of the other fish - notice the top and bottom rear fins are yellow tipped is that a male female thing? Like all of yellow tipped are male?
Thanks for your input.
I don't want to interrupt Bill, as he is far more knowledgeable than myself, but the orange tipped fins are usually indicative of a hybrid sunfish of some sort. Both males and females will display this coloration to some degree.
From your pics, I feel you definitely have Hybrids of some makeup in your pond. To be honest, I am not sure what to make of those last pics. HBG can show a lot of variation naturally, so they may be "standard" MBG x FGSF. I think you could be looking at a backcross of some sort, or a generation/s removed from the original F1's.
Again, trust what Bill says... I'm still trying to figure out all of this HBG stuff as I go....
IMO from viewing the pics you have :
BG , GSF , HBG , WM , and a host of lepomis crosses (hybrid sunfish).
IMO from viewing the pics you have :
BG , GSF , HBG , WM , and a host of lepomis crosses (hybrid sunfish).
It must be common to get a lot of crosses when you don't have any/enough predator fish?
I think any time you have GSF you are going to end up with a host of crosses. And many FX gene pools.
Look at it this way, the hybrids should at least get bid enough to eat, or a few of them anyway, and they are tasty critters.
The other fish look like some sort of hybrid sunfish to me. I still can not get a good look at the upper jaw. Those bass will have to survive on and get 'going' utilizing 1"-2" sunfish-BG. I hope there are plenty of them for those bass to eat. YOur water appears clear enough for the bass to adequately see and catch small fish. if those bass get enough food they should be 9" by mid October. Catch a few then and check for growth.
I said in my post reply to your above comment I would bet money I couldn't catch a Bass. Well I was wrong, went out last night and caught 10 LMB. They had to be from the stocking last week. So I just donated $25 to Pond Boss.
Should I not be fishing with the stocking of the LMB? I really didn't think I would catch any.? Maybe not fish for a few weeks? or not at all? THoughts?
Update on removal:
Sun fish - 350
Bluegill - 24
Crappie - 157
Bullheads - 79
Total = 610
