The lake chub sucker topic got me thinking (unfortunatly) about a second forage fish for my new pond. Idealy it would not compete with Bgill or Bass. Spawn well, maybe not to well, in lakes. The adults should be of sufficient size to not be easy prey, such that the population is self sustaining. One fish that has never been suggested is some species of sucker. I just wondered if this is a possability or if someone has had experience (bad or good) with these fish?

I wont take very many per acre to keep the water roiled up and muddy. Not sure they will spawn in a pond setting. I think most are stream spawners and need running water for successful spawns.

I would imagine they would quickly over populate......after all, there is one born every minute.
Sorry for that.

Unless someone tells me they have suckers reproducing in their pond (all sizes present) I do not believe they will reproduce in a pond. Also if suckers are reproducing I would like to know the species.

I have to agree with you Bill, ony ever heard or seen them spawn in streams, often in the lower sections in areas below that which trout make it to. I fear they would cause havoc on the spawning beds as well as have the potential to grow considerably larger then bass forage.

the only ponds I have found suckers in had large streams feeding the pond. I figure they strayed out of the stream into the pond. I remember one pond that had suckers and did not contain largemouth bass. Even in the absence of bass the suckers were few. I have heard stories about the infamous lake chubsucker but I have never sampled a lake or pond that was overrun with them. I have only personally seen two in my life. I have seen far more stoneroller and spotted suckers during my time sampling.

with the trend of catch and release running strong and the bass heavy populations that seem to result (at least around here) I wonder if lake chubsucker has met its match???

I decided to check a list of fish native to Minnesota and see if any of them would add to my forage base. The list of possabilities included shiner, golden shiner, fat heads, and white sucker. The white sucker is probably the most widely found fish in MN and spawns in lakes if no streams are present (so they say). But they do get bigger than bass could eat. The MN dnr data base makes it sound like the 12" fish are the exception not the rule, they also talk about what an important forage fish it is. Obviously they don't give a hoot how it works in ponds.
Would having more forage, other than Bgill and fatheads, give me more or bigger bass? Is there any benifit to having more forage species?

Fishes of Minnesota - white sucker

This is all I know about white suckers, if anyone is interested. I know that a prey item should be less than 1/3 the length of the bass. Will I be able to get any bass over 20" in MN? Obviously adult sucker are way to big, this would give them the possablity to over populate and out compete Bgill that I want to catch. But if thier is a commercial bait market for them maybe they could be trapped out for profit?
Sorry its late, Im leaving before it gets any worse.

Ty -- I would not recommend stocking white suckers in your pond. The big ones commonly get to 3 or 4 pounds, and no largemouth bass can eat them. Now, with enough predation on the small suckers, perhaps you could avoid a problem. However, I keep envisioning 300-500 pounds per acre of 18-20 inch white suckers. They would eat a LOT of insects that could be going to your bluegills and small bass. So, just a general sense that I would avoid introducing this species.

Dave

I think your right, the shear size of them is too much. But no one has answered my other question, is it good, or worth while, to have another forage species?

I think your question is alittle to broad to answer. It depends on what you want out of your pond. answers will vary depending on what species of fish you prefer to manage for, the size pond you have, where it is located and so on. Stocking a pond with additional fish like treadfin shad will be great for bass fishing, but watch out if you want good bluegill fishing. Just because you have a bunch of different species of fish living in the pond does not mean its a good fishery. they all compete for the same food. A pond will only hold a certain amount of fish, this amount is called its carrying capacity. Here in Georgia the carrying capacity for an unfertilized pond is 100 pounds of fish per acre. you can stock it full of bluegill, let them overpopulate for 2 years, drain the pond and you will have 100 pounds of skinny, terrible looking bluegill. Then stock the same pond with proper rates of bass, bluegill and red ear. give them two years to grow in a balanced fish population. drian the pond and weigh all the fish and you will still have 100 pounds of fish, but this time they will be fat, healthy fish.

I say this so you will understand that if you stock additional fish into your pond you are not increasing to your forage base. whatever fish you add will be taking away food from other fish in the pond.

there are not many fish that will produce more forage than good old bluegill. I would not recommend "playing" scientist with your pond and stocking fish to see what happens. Unless you are willing to drain the pond, kill all fish and start over.

I understand the concept of carrying capacity. I also realize that there are many diffrent species of fish becasue each one occupies a diffrent niche. I also know that Bgill are not benthic feeders (bottom feeders) and therefore do not utilize that part of the pond. My idea is that by diversifying my forage base I A. Will have prey fish spawning at diffrent times of the year, providing fry for young bass year round. B. If one population becomes scarce the bass will switch to the other forage (optimum foraging theroy) C. Take some of the pressure of the Bgill population so that we can harvest more. D. Utilize all the diffrent pond habitats to thier fullest to get the most fish out of my ponds. D. If the pond ended up over populating on a bait fish that we add, the bait fish might be able to be traped and for a profit.
I know that the best way to get big bass of big Bgill is to stock Bgill and LMB, feed, fertalize, and manage for one or the other. I'd rather have a pond that is self sustaining, I know impossible, but in that case diversity acts as a safety net. Lets say the first Bgill spawn gets disrupted by a freak accident, low water cool temps, and the eggs don't hatch. You might take comfort in having a plan B.

Not all species of fish have or occupy separate niches. Depending on the species, Many times the niches overlap, behaviors and competition occur esp in small habitats (ponds vs lakes). Sometimes fish will adjust their feeding habits and use another fishes' niche and competition occurs. The more fish species you add to the pond the more chances this will happen. The fittest, the most adaptable and the most prolific will be most successful. Some species will not be able to compete or spawn and relatively soon, be eliminated from the system.

You are dealing with adaptable live critters here that do not read the books so sometimes their behavior is not by the book and not what you expected. Pros and cons to this. It's your pond; experiment as you will, but as Shan says "you may need to start over if your "plan" does not work. The fish don't care what you think ought to happen.

I've seen big bass 20"-23" develop on just bgill and bass for forage but not a lot of them per acre. I don't think numerous really big bass can be produced per acre. But to get really big ones, the bass population has to be carefully manipulated to reduce competition at the proper times and bgill forage needs to be at the correct abundance and size as the bass grows.

My local fish hatchery guy (ex state hatchery assistant mgr. w/some college coarses) is convinced the best way to grow big bass in the north is to use goldfish as forage. However I'm not sure I completely believe this. Check out the biology and relative growth rates and sizes of goldfish. I can ask if he also recommends bgill with the goldfish. I can give you his name and website if you want to contact him. www.ridgeviewfinfarm.com Goldfish will compete w/ bgill for a lot of the same food items. Thus you may have fewer quality sized bgill when goldfish are present. Plus I don't think goldfish are very good table food and not much sportfish value except for bass food.

It will be pretty hard to find several fish that will not have overlapping niches in a small pond and not be a competitor with your main stocked or primary preferred species. Primarily because the pond is small and habitats are limited. HOwever if you want diversity for fishing variety then adding extra species is accecptable for your pond goals. You just need to keep the consequences of these additions in perspective and be able to deal with any negative results.

Fewer food sources are available in small ponds compared to larger lakes. Some lakes have higher fish diversity and a corrresponding higher carrying capacity which is due to the different species of fishes utilizing different or multiple niches and more different kinds of food sources. Carrying capacity of a pond is increased by fertilization, feeding, or stocking different species.

I understand the difference between a realized and possible niche. I was thinking that a bottom feeding fish like a sucker would not compete with Bgill or LMB the way blue cats fit into ponds well with them. Those three animals fill diffrent niches, I wouldn't consider stocking blue gill and green sunfish, thats too close. Part of my question is if there a point to this at all? I see most of you think not, and you are probably right.

TyW33

Just because bluegill are not classified as benthic feeders does not mean they dont feed on benthic invertebrates. Bluegill are well known to feed on everything that is available. thats what makes them such a great forage fish. It is for that reason that adding other fish usually will not "help take pressure off bluegill" (as you put it) Adding another species takes food out of the mouth of the bluegill, thus reducing the overall population. This is what BC is refering to when he talks about overlapping niches.

I have seen many bass over 10 pounds (the largest was 13) grown in bass/bluegill ponds. all these fish came from south Georgia where the growing season is very long. BC was right on the money when is said "there will not be a lot of them per acre". but it is possible to grow very large bass on a bluegill diet. I would love to talk to the guy who grows bass on gold fish, please forward that info Bill.

I like your thinking about diversity for growing large bass. I stock shad by the thousands for this purpose. but even the shad that is a filter feeder will impact the bluegill population so I dont recommend them for people who like fishing for sunnies (as you boys from MN call them)

There is another potential problem with trying to fill all of the niches. If you increase the biomass you might reduce the amount of DO available to all species and also increase the amount of manure to be absorbed by the water. My Farmer Grandfather once told me to "Think Like the Soil". In the case of a pond, I think you have to take a Holistic outlook and imagine yourself as the water in the pond. I remember Bill Cody once posting here to an owner of a large aquarium. He said "The fish are swimming in their own toilet" or something to that effect. I believe a pond is the same thing. Think of the water before you overstock or even fertilize to increase the carrying capacity.

The hatchery owner who declares and is convinced that the way to grow big LMB is to use goldfish for forage is Bob Hesterman. I think he must have used goldfish at the state hatchery to maintain brood stock or something like that. I'm not sure what his opinion is for using gizzard shad as big bass forage. I'm not sure where he learned goldfish was a method for raising big bass. Since he is in the northern Ohio do not know what he considers a trophy bass. Maybe his trophy LMB are 5-7 lbs? As I said earlier I'm not sure if he advocates also using other forage items in the pond or just goldfish. You can use my name if you want as a reference when contacting him.

It doesn't sound like I know much about his big bass raising method and you are correct. That is not one of my passions so I never really quizzed him about it. He just keeps telling me that goldfish will producee big bass.
His hatchery website is www.ridgeviewfinfarm.com. He has an email contact for the hatchery on the website.

I think that it is illegal to stock goldfish in MN. They are a very aggresive envasive species. Goldfish are well known to totaly dominate a lake. Some inner city lakes where people dump out pet goldfish have become goldfish only. They revert in a few generations to a natrual brown/bronze color.

I think almost every fish species can become overabundant or overpopulated and stunted if there are no or not enough check and balances present. Just about every fish you can think of can at times become a problem. Some fish definately do more habitat harm than others. This seems esp true with most invasive/exotic species but not all.

Tyw33: Are you telling me that if I live in MN and if I have a private backyard pond (say 1/2ac w/ no access to a stream) and if I put gold fish in it, that the state fishery boys or the local game warden will come and make me take them out? No gold fish, not even in private ponds?

Goldfish become overabundant in the city, metro, or urban lakes because all the yocals, excuse me locals, take out the bass who if present in normal densities would control and probably eliminate the goldfish.

Goldfish populations do fairly quickly become drab colored for two basic reasons. 1. A sizable percentage of goldfish offspring is drab or mixed color because drab is the dominant gene. 2. Colored offspring stick out like sore thumbs or neon lights and predators get them first.

Ditto on what Bill said about fish being adaptable and occupying overlapping niches. Think catfish and suckers are bottom feeders? Not necessarily. Back when I was a biologist aide Intern for a summer we routinely gillnetted channel catfish that were far up off the bottom suspended in a reservoir. I know of a natural lake near me where suckers are routinely gillneted suspended far off shore too. Here's the kicker. The suckers were feeding on plankton even though they had downturned mouths!

-In addition to Bill's comments on goldfish colouration, I have also noticed that environmental and diet factors play a role in colouration as they do to most other species.
Again, there is no reason with adequate numbers of varying sizes of bass that goldfish would overpopulate. Of course if there are no predators they will take multiply until the carrying capacity of the water body is reached, then as with other fish they overcompete for forage and stop growing very fast. Goldfish also feed heavily on their own eggs so there is a point at which their numbers will plateau. I personally don't see any reason why goldfish should be excluded as a potetial forage fish in private waters. (Those that have no outflow)

anyone ever seen Koi? They look like small yellow,black, and white carp. Thats because they are. Do you know what Koi are? Goldfish. Goldfish are very closely related to carp. When in a wild enviroment they grow larger and more aggresive. The hatchery manager probably used goldfish as a feeder fish, more like an aquarium. That makes more sense to me as goldfish are the most popular feeder fish in the aquarium trade.
I understand why goldfish revert to natrual coloration, I have taken courses in genetics, evolution, and right now in ecology. I realize that this does not even compare to the real life expereince that many of you have. But I do have a grasp of How fish feed, where they live, what they require, how they interact, and how thier populations change with time. Understanding these things has been of mine goal for a long time, and will continue to be.

Tyw33, After I read your above post, then your next goal should be to get a good fish anatomy /taxonomy book and read up on the differences between Koi and goldfish. After you have comprehended this information then come back and correct your post dated April 17,2003. If you don't understand the texts or if you need help I will explain what are the numerous differences between these two fish. Goldfish is NOT the answer to "Do you know what koi are?".

Sorry, I was unable to take ictheology this semester. But I will as soon as I can fit it in my schedual. I'm sorry I even asked this question. Every other thread, every one I have read, has been informational and mostly constructive. I feel that this thread has digresed away from the idea of more forage for bass and into making sure everyone here knows who is right. I now understand that the only thing to do with a pond under 50 acres is put in bass and bluegills and catfish with forked tails.
I wrote out an entire paragraph trying to explain why I think gold fish are dangerous to put in a pond and why I don't think it's legal too, such as you need a permit to stock and transport fish and goldfish are an exotic species.
Also I noticed that you are all defending this idea with gusto yet no one has said they tried it.
The point is we are bickering, thats not what this place is for, its for the co-operative exchange of information about ponds. We can all learn from each other, I have learned alot from the pond masters here, more than on any other website. So why are we argueing the diffrence between koi and goldfish? espescialy when we are all fishermen and women?

goldfish are illegal here in Gerogia as i undertand it. I dont think putting them into a backyard pond is going to get visit from the state DNR but stocking several thousand into a sportfishing pond for forage might. One post mentioned goldfishes tendency to eat their own eggs. if they eat their own eggs I'll assume they eat the eggs of other fish as well, which could cause fish population problems in the long run.

Tyw33, dont beat yourself up. your thinking is right on the money as far as growing trophy bass. you can diversify the food chain with non game fish and get very impressive bass growth. you can do it in ponds far smaller than 50 acres. I stocked several thousand threadfin shad into a pond yesterday for this purpose. but the pond owners objective is clear, grow the largest bass possible. he has no concern with numbers of harvestable size bluegill, bluegill to him are simply forage for his bass. when used in this context threadfin shad are great. they spawn like crazy, multiple times during the summer and dont get too large for bass to eat.

Many fish especially omnivorous types will eat fish eggs. Bgill and about every Lepomis (sunfish) will do it, many minnows will do it, trout do it, even humans do it. Any fish egg laid in a vulnerable position will probably soon get consumed by another fish, invetebrates and no doubt puddle ducks. Nest spawners are very defensive and defend the nest against most all invaders. Goldfish or koi in moderate numbers are not usually heavy predators of eggs of nest pawners. I've seen bgill bump and bite humans trying to get them out of spawning areas. Broadcast and nonnest spawners are usually adapted to lay more eggs to compensate for egg predation. Often egg laying location helps in success of the hatch and often helps in reducing egg vunerability to predation. This behavior trait brings into play the concepts of habitat diversity that is available in ponds vs lakes. Larger systems sometimes are better suited to sustain diversity of the fishery due to more specialized habitat diversity being available for successful spawning in the larger systems. Some species will not be able to succeed in small systems due to improper habitat or even due to unnatural crowding during various life stages. This brings us back to full circle of TyW33's original question; fish diversity for ponds. One might be able to stock them into a pond but will they be able to maintain populations against all forms of predation and competition? This may or may not be good based on the goals of the manager; it all depends.

Off topic. Threads often digress from the original topic due to the complexity of the aquatic habitats. Everything in the ecosystem is interconnected to everything else. It is hard to discuss one topic or change one item in the system without impacting something else that impacts another thing; food web; circle of life and all that stuff. Pond and lake ecosystems are not a simple food chain of one or several taxa.

Discussion about posts on this board:

TyW33 may call our discussions bickering but I do not. I call most of it questions and discussion sessions. Things usually get passionate when misinformation is delivered or perceived. Many of us deal constantly with mistruths from much of what we hear from the general public. We try to combat it in various ways.

If someone made the statement that koi are goldfish (or vice versa) or koi are basically the same as goldfish in a group of knowledgeable fishery people or in the college ichthyology classroom or even among a meeting of goldfish or koi fanciers do you think no one would bother to correct you just because you are a student or because you haven't yet taken ichthyology? You made what I perceived as an emphatic statement that was incorrect. I challenged you. Other casual readers could easily take what you wrote as factual. I basically asked you to prove yourself and additionally teach yourself the differences/similarities between koi and goldfish and then come back and edit your information. You could probably get all this info from various spots on the web. If your information is read by others who know differently from what you stated, then your credibility or reliability as an author/expert is tarnished or compremised.

Asking a question is one thing, but when making a statement of fact be able to back it up if you are challenged. By starting your Apr 17, post with "anyone ever seen koi?" this portrayed or delivered an attitude. There are numerous fishery biologists, fish raisers, & fish lovers here that frequent this board, most all have no doubt seen koi. I was trying to get you to fix what I thought was a problem. After you studied the facts and you still felt you were correct about koi vs goldfish and could prove me wrong then I would stand corrected and fix MY post pertaining to what I said about your koi and goldfish issue. My major professor in college always said "show me I'm wrong and I will change your score". That is very fair. I try to help and teach on this board.

When I see what I understand as bad information anywhere I am participating, I will challenge it. When I am proved wrong I am always willing to change, adapt, and learn..

Suckers are great gamefish! They are every bit as good of fighters as catfish. They are also great to eat but because of lots of small bones, they can't just be fried as many fish are. Read the book "Fishes of Minnesota" to get some ideas about cooking them.

Also, don't let everyone talk you out of your ideas, they all have validity. Most people think that there are only a few gamefish species in this country. It is all in their minds!

Up here in MN white suckers are often sold as "Pike minnows" or "sucker minnows". People use them for pike and musky. And they fetch a fair price for a 3" minnow, ussaly over 50 cents apiece! Gollon Bros. sells suckers up to 20" for musky bait, I wonder how much those go for.
If white suckers do spawn in a pond with out water flow would it work to use them as a monoculture? In some ways it might be like free fish (after you pay for the pond), they wouldn't need to be fed or managed, just harvasted.
I was thinking a fairly small pond, maybe around an acre or two and deep enough not to freeze out, full of bait. It would be non-drainable, harvest would be done with a fyke net, cast net or siene. The ones that were to large for bait could be returned as breeders and the others used as bait.

In most culture situations, the fish are moved to different ponds throughout their lives. This helps ot increase hatching rates, growth rates, carrying capacity,cut down on diseases, and the design of the ponds makes it easy to remove them. I have seen the Gollon brothers system and the fish are hatched indoors and moved outdoors.

Thanks for the info. So if fish are going to be moved then the ponds should all be drainable. How does gollon get the suckers to spawn in tanks? Hormones? or some other trick?

they use indoor raceways and are dependant on water temp and I would assume photoperiod comes into play also. They bring the brood fish in when ready. They have a nice outfit there, almost worked for them. The ability to drain a pond is very important for maintenance, parasite control, and non target fish removal.
Robert B

They must have aquifers or some natural source of water. Chilling or heating that much water would cost a fortune, especialy a non-recirculated system. And recirculated systems cost a fortune too. I wonder if my pond plan, maybe with the addition of a drain, would be suitable for supplying one bait shop or for personal use?

We are really getting off on two different subjects here. One subject is raising fish for profit, suckers in this case. The second subject is adding diversity to our ponds. I would like to have someone else start a discussion about various methods of raising bait for sale.

That leaves this discussion to the subject of adding diversity to our ponds/lakes.

The first think I want to say to Ty is to keep at it! You force everyone to think and that exposes some of the nonsense we believe.

Pure BS: A pond will only support so many pounds of fish called the carrying capacity. It's astounding to hear so many professionals fall for this pure and total BS. Living things tend to greater diversity. There is a benefit to this diversity, energy and resources are used much more intensively. In simple terms, a low diversity fish pond might have a carrying capacity of 400 pounds. The same pond with a high diversity might have a 500 pound carrying capacity.

This happens because with a low diversity pond, each species is a generalist in using the resources of the pond. With a high diversity pond, the species are all specialists in using the different resources of the pond.

I just wanted to add an illustration to my comments about carrying capacity. Many people think that carrying capacity is a constant. Say this number is 500 pounds per acre. Some people think that if you have 4 species, each species would have 125 pounds. If you add a 5th species, each species would only have 100 pounds.

You can see that this isn't true by thinking of LMB. Using our illustration above, if you want to raise LMB, the addition of bluegills is just a waste. You could have 500 pounds of LMB and forget the forage. We use forage species because they use parts of the environment that LMB don't. That is true of every species we add, they are all a bit more specialized in using the environment than other species. The total amount of biomass increases. However, because of the increased competition, individuals don't grow as fast or get as big as they would without this extreme competition.

All of this is to say that in general, your idea of another forage species is valid. The point that Dave Willis was making is that white suckers are very good at exploiting this type of environment and may dominate this lake.

Dave recommended that I add white suckers to my 4 acre lake because I have such a preponderance of large predators. If you should add white suckers, make sure you have enough predators to control their numbers. It can be done.