Bill and others: I have a friend that doesn't care for bass (believe it or not) and wants a pond that is a little different species wise.

I suggested possibly a walleye pond with yellow perch as forage.

Is this realistic? Bill I believe you do something like this in one of your ponds don't you?

I assume the perch will have no problems reproducing in the pond and may even become stunted which would not be a problem if they are primarily used for forage. However on the other hand will many outgrow forage size? Would it be possible to have a balance of the two species in a pond? What kind of stocking rate are we suggesting?

I realize the walleye will have to be planted regularly as they will not reproduce well in a pond, but at some point will it become a problem if they cannot be purchased large enough and the perch will eat them?

I also assume there will be some cannibilism of the walleye by larger walleye if the planted walleye are not large enough.

Maybe I should suggest hybrid striped bass or something else untypical.

Hey Cecil, I am doing something similar to this myself only with B-Gill, fatheads, mudminnows and shiners as forage. As with many species if it will fit in it's mouth... it'll eat it. There is some reproduction of walleye possible in ponds... fairly decent chance from what I have read and my suppliers info. Walleye if fed a rich minnow diet from young will grow surprisingly fast... they do better with live foods then pelleted foods to the point that a walleye fed minnows can easily double or triple the size of one fed prepared foods over the same time period. Perch likely won't grow fast enough or big enough with walleye as a predator to become a threat to the smaller stocked walleye.. of course they will eat some if the walleye manage to reproduce. From what I know stocking rates for walleye are about the same as bass. Walleye are great fish for eating. Note that they do like slightly cooler water then bass do. I think the combination you mention will work very well... certainly recommend a large program of stocking minnows first.

Cecil - Dave W. adds good additional info in his Dec 6 post below.
PREREQUSITES: Ready and dependable access to young walleye fingerling and or juveniles (5"-8").
Lots of variables with this one that are still being worked out. As with other stocking combinations things are not simple due complexness of the numerous interacting factors involved. Numerous things to consider with this fishery. Walleyes have not been very succesful in ponds in the past (journal articles) which is reflected in most everything one reads about them in ponds or small lakes.
Keep in mind that this fishery will be primarily a table food fishery not a very good aggressive, hard fighting, leaping predator based fishery. A disadvantage; I'm not sure, depends??
Y. perch and walleye are not as "fisherman friendly" as bass & bgill. Better combination (for several reasons) would probably be SMB or hy.stp.bass and perch; see below. I think minnows/shiners are also key to these fisheries; esp if rapid perch growth is desired. For minnow/shiner long term & brood stock survival I'm convinced that weed beds (refugia) of some sort are essential. I have preferences for submerged species. Sport fish populations are also enhanced by the weed beds.

Your ? #1. I currently think a walleye and perch combination is feasable in ponds in the northern states where cool water fish thrive. However, for it to be successful it is a fishery that requires high maintenance; in that the pondmeister will have to closely monitor the populations (predator and prey) and make adjustments when necessary. It is also important to keep in mind that in a pond or sm lake for good growth of yellow perch the system will need an abundant minnow/shinner food base. This could be very difficult to achieve with walleyes and another predator species in the mix; esp if the walleyes are very abundant! This is why I prefer to use perch in my pond that are 'trained on fish pellets', which minimizes this problem. Success of the fishery will depend on the knowledge & skill of the pondmeister; luck may also help in the success.
2?. Perch may, but will not likely become overabundant IF walleye numbers are correct; which is where population monitoring is very important. Strong year classes of perch should be monitored carefully, thinning with traps may be necessary if walleye stocks are on the low side. Trapping would also be a good way to quickly & temporarily thin a heavy perch hatch so they do not overeat the food resources. Strong year class of perch could be adjusted by stocking a few more YOY walleyes (5"-8") in the fall. Whereas low numbers of perch young and subadults suggests walleye should be thinned. Condition factors for walleye will also indicate if walleye removal is necessary. Currently I am suggesting harvest of all? walleye greater than 16"-18". This keeps the predators at the smaller size range which limits how big of perch they are eating. My goal is for me, not the walleye, to harvest the larger perch. Bob at RV Fin Farm tells me that the walleye in the OH DNR ponds always topped out at 3-4 lbs (19"-21"). He doesn't think they will get much bigger than that in small ponds with themselves as the only common(20-30/ac) & dominant predators. Probably right; esp w/ densities of 20+/ac. These large fish by themselves converts to 70 predator lbs /acre (3.5 lbsx20). I have seen ponds with high numbers of walleye / ac that grow slowly and keep perch recruitment to minimum after 9-10 yrs, yet the pond appears to have ample minnows and shiners that sustain their numbers.
? #3. Many of the yellow perch with adequate food could outgrow the forage size (9"-12")of medium sized walleye (16-20"). This is where harvest comes into the picture. One has to thin the perch adults (sometimes fingerlings) based on the goals of the fishery. We have had some problems with oldest/largest y. perch in a few aerated ponds dying during the hottest summer months (surf. water 90 degF). We are assuming genetic brood stock, excessive fast growth or temperature are primarily responsible. We are still researching this problem. One stocking plan could be use walleye as a random bonus fish with low #/ac (6-12/ac)and the pondmeister would be primarily responsible for controlling the perch numbers thru trapping & a fish pole.
4. "Balance" will be purely artificial since the walleye spawn usually will not survive at least reliably each year. Walleye recruitment (depending) will be at best very 'spotty' and prob. nonexistant. Wall. spawning is often no problem, but few ponds have proper conditions for the hatching of walleye eggs. Walleyes are NOT nesting, parental fish like bass and sunfishes. Restocking will be necessary (depending on proper balance & # harvested). Newly hatched and young walleye are real slender and easily eaten my many larger fish including perch. Once source I have says 1 in 10,000 walleye eggs make it to one yr old. NOTE - I prefer to not have the walleye eggs hatch in a pond. A successful hatch of walleye eggs would really complicate my management goals and my estimates of how many predators are present.
?#5. Stocking rate of y. perch & wall. will depend on fertility and fed vs not fed fish; similar to bgill. One will grow more lbs/ac of each if they are fed. I've read where walleye may not be as good at food conversion as say LMB. This may have an impact on numbers/acre. Generally I do not stock perch and walleye at densities those for bass and bgill since walleye and y.perch are both primarily fish eaters.
6. Walleyes may or may not need to be stocked each year. I'm currently leaning toward restocking predators every two yrs. This will allow me to better monitor growth. Number of walleye stocked will depend on perch YOY recruitment and # harvested. Try to maintain a proper "balance" which eludes many pondmeisters. Larger walleye (6"-8") are the preferred stocking size. Survival will be better. Larger walleye (& esp LMB bass) will also readily eat newly stocked smaller walleye, depending on the stocked size, amount of refugia and number & size of predators. Generally the larger the size of stocked fish the better the chance for survival

NOTE FYI: We are also using Hy stripped bass in combination with y. perch. Both readily eat pellets. This may be a much easier to maintain & manage fishery. Another easier combination is SMB and y. perch which are ideally suited together & occur naturally in many northern situations. I still maintain LMB were "created" or evolved to primarily live with sunfish - bgill. Thus I try to keep y. perch out of LMB waters.

ADDITIONAL NOTES:
A. Sunfish are not good forage to produce optimal growth of walleyes; assuming this is impt. Walleye & n. pike have big mouths but narrow throats and have difficulty swallowing larger sunfish as compared to LMB who have wide throats and easily handle/swallow wide bodied prey. Narrow throated fish prefer and grow faster with a predominance of larger sized, elongated forage. Larger walleye do better w/ slender prey and are forced to inefficiently eat the smaller wider bodied sunfish. Walleye, bass and bgill &/or y. perch and even pike seem to sometimes work in larger lakes that have a high diversity of habitats/niches. I don't think these numerous species combinations or diversity works very well at all in ponds.
B. Pottsy is on the right track with his stocking combination except I disagree with the bgill for reasons stated above in item A. Yellow perch would have been a much better suited panfish with walleye as primary predators. Abundance of mixed minnows and or shiners are very beneficial or maybe necessary for overall growth of perch and walleye. Perch can very quickly over eat their food source without a minnow based forage. Minnows/shiners also quickly get young walleye up to a size where they are efficient predators of the YOY and subadult perch. Shiners (golden 5-7") also grow to large sizes beyond the prey size for perch & sm walleye but not larger walleye (18"-20"). Another reason why I try to remove larger walleye. Presence of larger brood shiners helps insure a supply of annual small forage. (Generally: Brood stock shiners prefer open water away from bottom hugging walleye. Perch become inactive at dusk when walleye become active). We have seen instances where walleye seem to have slow growth up to 14" with only y. perch as forage. Not sure why this is happening; maybe a fluke; but probably due to a lack of minnow forage. HOWEVER slow walleye growth can be very good because the smaller walleyes are eating small perch which is the main group that needs to be thinned so remining perch have enough food for good growth.
C. I'm not sure where Pottsy got his info about walleye growing better on fish forage as compared to pellets. I partially believe this and most of the aquaculture data I've read indicate mixed results. I have never read anything in the literature to verify his statement. I'm not sure that Pottsy's info source performed a valid unbiased test, which would be pretty hard to do. Walleye are very hard to get onto pellets and I know of no source in the USA for pellet trained walleye that are available to the public. Ohio DNR raised sm. wall. for resocking and maintained some large 3-4 lb walleyes all on pellets until they abandoned the project.
D. I also think Pottsy would have had a better & easier to manage fishery, if he would have used SMB instead of LMB in his pond. I think he will have trouble getting good survival of supplimentally stocked 6"-8" walleye with LBM in the pond. Cecil, you know the cross-sectional shape of walleye less than 13"; basically a cigar and they will be PRIME food for a fairly long time for the 15-18" bass. Mouth/gape of SMB & hy.Stp. bass of 15-18" is a lot smaller compared to LMB of similar size. Plus I don't think the SMB are as "fish eating- aggressive" (esp if crayfish are common) as the LMB. Maybe wrong; just a feeling from experience of raising both and seeing what each does to a forage base.
I also think the walleye in Pottsy's pond will at times eat as many small bass as perch due to body shape of both types; abundance of each prey & cover will also be impt. here. His recruitment of LMB will be curtailed due to numbers of walleye and their predation of young bass. This may be okay depending on his goals.
E. Since Pottsy supplied the source of his info (thanks Pottsy), I will provide my opinions. Leonard's Hatchery looks like a good operation. I think they over emphasized their promo as a selling point. Look at the size range of YOY in the dip net for stocking. Compare that to the photo-example for pellet vs fish raised walleye. Definate bias between the two pictures.

As with most fishes, early growth can be quite variable depending on a lot of circumstances.
Walleye have been raised on pellets in Iowa to abt. 8" by fall of first yr. Others have reported growth from 5"-8" on pellets although 5"-6" seems to be the norm. I got some saugeyes from RV.Fin Farm that were raised on minnows to 7" by 1st fall. He often has 5-7" walleye in the fall that were raised on minnows. I've also often seen 3-4" walleye by 1st fall raised on pellets or minnows; crowding & adequate food seems to be the biggest limiting factors. Pellet raising walleye can be very tricky and results very variable depending mostly on culture conditions. The technology and genetics (ploidy & single sex) of walleye culture are still being developed.

F. I think if one relies on 16"-20" walleyes to thin bgill populations they will see excessive numbers of 4-5" bgills over time.

G. In smaller water bodies, I would not mix walleye in with LMB and expect to have a thriving walleye fishery. There is a major and direct PREDATOR BEHAVIOR conflict here. SMB would be a better bass for a walleye fishery; but here, you are again putting the pressure of two predator types on your forage base and one of them is dependably reproducing. This complicates the management of the fishery. The more sport fish species that are introduced into a pond the harder it becomes to manage so all species are successful. This is less true when talking about forage species; diversity of "appropriate" forage speices is usually beneficial for predator based habitats.

I hope this has provided some insight into walleyes for ponds. More needs to be researched, experimented and learned. BCody

Hey Cecil/Bill

In my case I have a few LMB in the pond as well so the B-Gill are primarily for their benefit, (I have only a few mature B-Gill). I figure the walleye will help with eating many of the smaller newly hatched B-Gill... long before they get too large to swallow.

The study on pellet trained vs. minnow fed walleye survival and growth was done in conjunction with a fish farm and the MNR, (Primarily our White Lake hatchery). Both of my suppliers as well as the MNR offer pellet trained walleye as well as minnow fed.

Leonard\'s Walleye...

Another bit of info to check out.

Cecil/Bill/Pottsy/and others:

"Food for thought", in talking with MNR in Ontario for my lake (now 16+ acres) I was told walleye should do fine and reproduce well if;
1. Create some riprap shoreline on the east side of the lake for the prevailing wind action (big wave action with 850' width) creating eddies etc. on the rock to attract the walleye to spawn among the shoreline rocks.
2. That the stock fish are orginally lake walleye that spawn in the lake as "the Bay of Quinte" where all/most the brood stock comes from for Eastern Ontario (Pottsy's area). If you use river spawn walleye your chances for successful reproduction may be reduced as the walleye that travel up the Thames River to spawn from "Lake St. Claire" near Detroit.

Keep up the great info as I will stock 500 walleye fingerling next spring 2"-3" from Pottsy's area into my lake for growout and hopefully spawn reproduction. I will keep you guys informed. I guess I better get some minnows in the lake (Bill/others-any ideas for a good northern minnows that will spawn prolifically in my 10-15% weed cover) as I have a tremendous amount of perch already with recently introduced native bluegill that spawned very well this past year. I introduced some SMB this spring as a start to a predator fish base and they spawned very well and grew like crazy with the bluegill/rock bass/perch forage base. I also added approx. 20 adult LMB as I caught them elsewhere for spawning next year. I will buy approx 200 8-10" LMB next April as well to get that predator going as well. Only time will tell if the SMB/LMB and walleye will survive as predators and the perch/pumpkinseed/rock bass and bluegill can keep up or need to be thinned or both? I will look forward to your comments with this tricky Fish/pond management program. This winter I will be adding the structure to the lake for the LMB, SMB and bluegill (dense and loose structure) in the designated areas for optimum benefit per each species of fish (eg rock structure for SMB in semi deep area between the deeper areas and the shallows). Sorry for the run on but I am getting excited with this project and future results. I'm hoping with your input we as a group can benefit from this experience and I will share the growth, success and setbacks along the way as we move forward to a lake with these successful species living amongest their destinated areas of water depth and structures in my old gravel pit full of sand,gravel and clear water. Thanks

Rowly

I believe that I can back up several of the very good comments made by Bill Cody.

I live in SD, and walleyes are king up here. I really like to use smallmouth bass (for fun fishing) or largemouth bass (primarily as a good predator to create quality panfish opportunities) for our small impoundment management because both bass species will naturally reproduce (no more stocking).

However, because of the popularity of walleyes, landowners constantly ask for walleyes. Over the past 6-7 years, we have managed a 20 acre pond for a local landowner using walleye and yellow perch. Let me pass on our experiences, including some mistakes.

I was extremely worried about the yellow perch overpopulating and stunting in the pond. So, I'm afraid that we overdid the walleye stocking densities. We stocked for three years at 100/acre of advanced fingerlings. In years one and two, we used those more easily obtained 2-inch fingerlings. In the third year, we went to 6-8 inch fall fingerlings to avoid them being eaten. Well, we overdid the walleye density. The walleyes grew quite slowly, and the landowner was a little disappointed in us "professional fishery biologists." He wanted big walleyes and lots of them, which may not be especially feasible in small waters with a limited number of fish species (i.e., prey items). We actually had to do some thinning of the small walleyes just to get their growth rates up.

On the positive side, the intense walleye predation really thinned the yellow perch reproduction. As a result, we had phenomenal growth on the surviving yellow perch. The initial year class grew quickly, with quite a few even reaching 13-14 inches!! Truly amazing fish. Now that the fish community is more established, we don't see those trophies very often any more. We're primarily producing 10-12 inch perch, which are nice fish anywhere.

We started a second pond for this same landowner, and we are trying to keep the walleye densities to a lower level. I'll see how this goes. However, just as Bill said, this is VERY intensive management, with us adding, removing, netting, electrofishing walleyes. Such management strategies should not be undertaken unless people are really willing and able to pay close attention.

Finally, I am not very confident about walleye reproducing in small impoundments. I've learned never to say never. However, even when we see reproduction, it seems very limited, and I believe it would unlikely support sufficient future walleye density to control the reproductive potential of the perch. So, I tell interested pondowners to plan on stocking walleyes, and probably using 6-8 inch walleyes.

Hope this helps!

Dave Willis

Dave-- How big are the originally stocked walleyes in the 20 acre Lk after 6 or 7 years?
Is it six or seven yrs? I'm trying to keep data on walleye growth in small water bodies. Thanks BC

Bill -- the graduate students in my fisheries class turn in their management plan next week. It's saturday now, and they have all my files, this year's data, etc. I could guess for you, but why don't I just get the specific details. I'll have to checking my stocking records to see just how many years they have been there!! :-)

In general, the walleyes were still 12-13 inches after three growing seasons, so density was indeed way too high. We did some "thinning" that winter. Even so, I don't think that I've ever seen one over about 20 inches. As you might guess, they had high natural mortality, probably from living a pretty tough, competitive life, and there aren't many big ones there now. However, we were able to get subsequent stockings to survive pretty well.

A couple of years ago, we put together a statewide summary of sport fish growth in SD waters. SD Game, Fish and Parks doesn't use walleyes very much in small public impoundments. However, I did have age and growth samples from four such waters. The walleyes averaged 176, 271, 384, and 431 mm (total length) at ages 1-4. That's about the same or in some cases slightly faster than our statewide average for all waters, and I suspect it probably resulted from low survival of walleyes in the small impoundments. Most have bass/panfish communities, and stocking survival is often low. Those few that survive seem to grow pretty well.

Dave

Dave - Thanks for your info so far.
I saw the same over crowding thing happen in a small (1/2ac) pond when the guy stocked too many walleyes/acre. The guy was a "know it all fisherman" and said he could seine enough minnows to keep them and other newly stocked predators fed. First year walleye grew from stocked sizes of 5"-6" (250/ac) & 7"-8" (50/ac) to 1 yr growth in the pond of 9"-10" and 12-13" respectively. This wasn't too bad of growth considering how many he stocked. Second year no growth; same sizes. He had way too many fish of all species stocked. He would not listen to me initially but he's learning now. He did some thinning in 2001 and I haven't talked to him this yr to find out how things are doing and the walleye growth during 2002. It is frustrating trying to make recomendations to a guy that knows it all. Since he can catch them he knows all there is to know about them.

NOTE ON SURVIVAL: My experience has taught me that fish need a 'fair' amount of fat going into winter for high percentages of survial. With ample fat they can survive 4 -5 months in 39 deg water and not eat and be "healthy" at ice out. The other option is provide them with ample forage during winter ice cover. But if they are 'skinny' in autumn, forage is and was during the year in short supply, because they are currently thin. Thin fish (often hatchery raised) in the fall can often have fairly good survival during winter if they were restocked into a new system with adequate forage.
PS: Did you know the student Kent Werlin? I did some diatom identification/counts for his wetlands project of the Upper MO Rv. via SDSU?

Good morning, everyone.

Bill -- I dug out those growth rates for you.

AS I said, we first stocked this 20-acre lake with WAY too many small fingerling walleyes (30 mm fish at 250/acre!!) in 1997. So, we've had five growing seasons through this fall. In 1998, we stocked advanced fingerlings (155 mm at about 50/acre).

When we sampled in fall of 2000, we considered growth essentially done for that year. So, the walleyes only reached an average of 194 mm at age 1, 256 mm at age 2, and 277 mm at age 3. I didn't know they could even grow as slowly as they did from 2 to 3. As you discussed, I'm sure it was a tough life, and we had some high natural mortality as well as our removals.

We sampled again this fall (2002). The largest fish we caught ranged from 47-52 cm, so we did have a few of those fish that exceeded 20 inches this year, after our removal efforts. Their numbers appear to be relatively low, but their condition factors are finally up!

I mentioned that we started a new pond for the same landowner. This one is about 18 acres. We stocked walleye fry in both 2001 and 2002. Then, in both years, the landowner allowed a commercial fish producer to trap out some of the walleyes. So, we don't know what is left, but we know we are trying to keep densities lower. We are doing better on growth in this situation. This fall, the 2001 fish ranged from 27 to 34 cm, with an average of about 31 cm. The 2002 fish ranged from 13 to 20 cm, with an average of 17 cm. These fish are still a little thinner (low condition factor) than I would like to see. However, growth is certainly better. The bottom line is that we have walleyes fishing their second growing season that are more than 2 inches longer than we got in the first pond. So, staying on top of things does pay off.

Yes, Kent was a darn nice guy. Unfortunately, the "wetlands" people are on the "wildlife" side of our profession, and there's ongoing "kidding" between those darn wildlifers and us highly regarded fish squeezers.

Dave

An interesting site including average sizes of 'wild' walleye in Ontario.

Walleye

Dave & Pottsy & Rowly: Thanks for the good information.

Pottsy, The average weights of Canada walleye are 20% to 40% heavier than the standard walleye of Fish Calculator program. Interesting. It might be that weights of Canada fish were gravid females?

Rowly: Talk to Pottsy about his minnow/shiner forage base. He has numerous Canada native 'minnow types' that he has stocked into his pond.

I think you may be stocking too many walleye per acre (500) in spring of 2003 especially since your water of the gravel pit is clear and lower in productivity (see my other Post below). I think the maximum number of predators your pond can support is approx 20 to 30 fish per acre. Keep in mind that you had a successful SMB spawn in 2002 and will get LMB & SMB spawns in 2003. If each predator of the 20 -30/ ac weighs and average of 2 lbs that's 40 to 60 predator lbs per acre which is hovering around or above the upper limit or carrying capacity of a water body similar to yours, esp without fertilization. Reconsider your spring stocking numbers. You may want to wait to see what populations, survivals, and condition factors are like next fall before adding more predators. Many pond owners nievely think their pond can contain more fish than it can actually support. You have to leave room for annual growth of fish mass if you expect the existing fish to get bigger.

You mentioned you had clear water; how deep water can you still see the bottom??

NO, thankyooooooooooouuuuuuuuu!

Thanks Bill and all for the valuable info.

Cecil

Bill, sorry for the confession. I would like to stock 500-1000 1 1/2" to 2 1/2" walleye fingerling next spring in total to the 16 acre (1000 @ 75 cents or anything less @ $1.50 each) lake for growout and hopefully future spawning? What do you think the success rate may be for these small fingerling to grow and survive predatation to 6-8" in length or by the end of the growing season with little LMB/SMB bass #'s yet? Would 50% survival be high? I believe I have enough weed cover and structure for them, I have a great small size folage base of perch and bluegill but my concern is, is there enough small plankton organisms to get and start them over the hump before they start to eat small fish in their young diets? What can I do to increase the plankton base, I'm very happy with the amount of small fish available for later consumption, if they can grow to that size before starving on a potential lack of plankton.

The water clarity is between 4-10 feet depending on the algae bloom and time of year. Weed cover is approx. 10-15% of total area.

I hope this helps in your evaluation for successfull growth of the very small walleye fingerling.

Thanks again, in advance for all the valuable advise from all of you knowledgeable pondmeisters.

Rowly

Rowly - The newly stocked 2" walleye will not starve due to a lack of plankton. The 2" to 2.5" walleye are not eating plankton at this stage, which is why the hatcheries get rid of them at this size. At 2" to 2.5" they are switching their diet to more & more eating fish. At 1/2" to 1" they eat mostly zooplankton w/ a few invertebrates ie insect larvae & occasional fish fry (1/4"-3/8") if available. 1" to 2" they eat largest zooplankton and more & more insect larvae and increasing numbers of larval fish if present. By 2" to 2.5" it is mostly fish diet and insect larvae whichever is most abundant and easiest to catch; "opportunists". Not much plankton anymore for these guys; they are now looking for meat and substance. Without fish at this size they basically stay at 2.5" w/ real slow growth. 2.5" walleye easily eat 1/2" to 1" slender minnow larvae. Your weed beds should be good hunting and hiding places for these fingerlings; traditional "PBoss structure" will not do much for improving survival of 2" -3" walleyes, they need weed beds. The 2.5" walleye may crop a lot of your 2003 bass fry. You should get your walleye fingerlings about the time the bass fry are separating from the schooling behavior, mid- late July. Bass spawn in your area around mid to late June; right?

I will do some 'on line speculation' or make some estimates about your pond to try and help you form some realistic ideas about fish poundages for your 16 acres.
Since your water is in the relatively clear range, I'm assuming you don't fertilize. If I had your gravel pit pond where you are located I would not fertilize because: 1. you should be able to grow plenty of fish and big ones for your needs in 16 ac without fertilizer additions. Fertilizer is not directly responsible for producing big or trophy fish; balance & proper densities are responsible. However fertilizer can help produce more pounds of fish or more fish that are trophy size per acre. I can explain if you do not understand this. 2. Fertilizer reduces water clarity. I think clear water "looks" better or is more appealing and is more 'appropriate'/aesthetic in your area. 3. Fertilization is costly esp for 16 ac. of water. 4. Fertilization hastens the aging process of a water body and pushes it to an earlier 'death'; esp if your pond is not easily drainable. 5. Maintaining a proper plankton bloom is tricky and often fertilization, when done improperly, leads to enhanced rooted weed problems or large filamentous algae mats esp in the northern US & Canada.
Without fertilization and based on your water clarity of 4 to 10 feet I estimate your pond's natural PREDATOR productivity at 10 to 20 lbs per acre and 120 to 180 lbs TOTAL fish poundage per acre. (Fish pellets will raise these poundages.) MNR will also give you a pretty good estimate or your pond's fish productivity if you ask them for the fish poundages estimated for similar natural lakes in your area. Ask for estimates of predator pounds and total fish pounds per acre for your 16 acres.

Another good way to estimate your pond's potential for productivity is to measure the alkalinity. Lower alkalinities result in lower productivities. Rowly do you have a alkalinity reading for your pond?? This is important if you decide to fertilize and expect to get a good bloom. The clearer the water the lower the productivity. Total fish poundages will be least when water has 8' to 10' visibility.

Survival of 2" walleye will be dependent on numerous things. Primary will be number of existing larger predators esp bass and walleye. I think your survival rate will be a lot less in subsequent stockings (post2003) after your pond has existing populations of adult bass and walleye. My guess & it is only a guess is that the first stocking you will have about 30-40% survival at best. Later stockings you can expect 5% to maybe 15% survival if you stock 2" fish. In later stockings with a full range of adult predators, I think you will get more 'bang for your buck' if you stock the larger size 6"-8" fish or ever better 10"-12" fish if available. . The other thing that enhances survival is weed growth. More growth increases survival. Structure is not expansive enough to enhance fingerling survival. Structure is primarily for adult fish and "stupid" small fish which are soon food.

Back to your stocking numbers & pond productivity. Let's say you get lucky and have 50% survival of 500 to 1000 2" walleye fingerlings. Let's stock 600; 300 survive to one pound size which in Canada is an average of 12.3" or by the IBN fish calc program is 13.5"-14". For these 300 to get to 1 lb they will need to eat 3000 lbs of fish. Basically all predators need to eat about 10 lbs of fish to gain a pound. Granted this will take place for your 2" walleyes over a 2-3 yr period.

Your pond is 16 ac and I estimated its TOTAL productivity at 120 to 180 lbs per acre. 16 ac x 150 lbs/ac is 2400 lbs of total fish biomass. Total fish biomass is not just the forage fish; it is all fish. Rowly, your pond does not have enough total fish productivity, let alone enough forage fish at one point in time to grow 300 walleyes to one pound AND also support largemouth smallmouth and perch which also eat minnows. If I was correct in my above est. of 10-20 lbs of predator per acre,10-20 lb x 16ac =160 to 320 total lbs of predators. OR 160 lbs /one 3 lb walleye = 53 fish or 320/3=106 total walleye at 3 lbs. However, ideally you want your walleye population to be made up of several size classes (10'-20"). Consider a 20" 'healthy' walleye can weigh 4 lbs. Now ALSO remember you are putting LMB and SMB in this pond. Their weight must be included in the pond's total pounds of predators. Now we have to spread that 160 to 320 lbs of total predators among walleye, SMB and LMB. I think you should concentrate on only two predators not three;unless you accept the consequences.
All this theory changes somewhat if the MNR disagrees with my estimates. However the principles are the same just the numbers will be a little higher or lower.

Crowding too many fish into your system will result in slow, poor growth and less healthy fish. Keep in mind that the LMB & SMB will be spawning each year and adding more predators into the pond. Too many predators will and easily decimate your good forage base that you currently have established. Once lost the strong forage base will be hard to get re-established. Thinning and proper harvest will be important in managing the predators esp reproducing bass.. Hopefully you can keep us posted on your success with this pond. PS Save and print my recommendations and see how accurate my estimates were in 4 to 5 years.

Great info Bill, I understand what you are saying and have been actively gathering info from all directions. I believe your right and I have printed your thoughts for that 4-5 year timeframe! I recently have the "Ontario Bass Federation" on side now and they want to stock my lake with 200-300 mature LMB from their members ponds for future fishing rights-tournaments/interests/common goals in early spring before spawning, not a bad idea and great resources to be friends with. Bill Dance will be proud!!! HA!HA! Therefore, I will only stock the lake with LMB and SMB as predator fish for now. I will however create some "spawning reefs" for possible future walleye by bringing in rubble size rocks (2 1/2" t0 10" in size) onto the ice during the winter just off shore in shallow water, as the ice melts the rubble rocks will drop into place. Walleye eggs require both movement in a silt free environment and adequate oxygen from water and wave action (Cecil). I believe your total biomass numbers are correct and I will take it one step at a time. In spring I will add those mature LMB and SMB and let nature take its course for a while. Pottsy- what's your thoughts on a good forage base minnow to keep pace with my future creation? Thanks again Bill and others for your thoughts and knowledge. I will keep you all informed as this project moves forward and takes a live of its own.

Rowly

Rowly - I hate to keep throwing water on your fire but: since you are now moving towards a heavy LMB and SMB based fishery and adding "good" numbers of mature fish this spring I don't think minnows will do well for very long in your existing system with all those larger bass; esp those LMB's. Keep in mind what Bob L always preaches here and consider bgill &/or pumpkinseed sunfish as the main forage for these bass. I think minnows in your system with only 10%-20% weed growth will have a hard time keeping an adequate annual forage base for good bass growth. Bass, esp LMB, are foracious predators on minnows such as Pottsy is using. Bass eat them like Cheerios cereal. The adult minnows like Pottsy has are also small 2.5" - 5" which is very little substance for a 2 to 3 lb bass. They have to eat so many of them they waste all the nutrition and energy catching enough to fill them up each day, thus little growth results. If the 2.5 lb bass can expend only one swipe and get a 4"-5" bgill or 8" shiner or 8" bass or 8"-10" walleye, it "makes his day". One swipe and all he (even a 14"-16"er) gets a 3" minnow what a waste; he needs to do that all day long. They quickly learn that is 'not the way to go' unless absolutely necessary and the only thing available.
Rethink your plan. If possible ask MNR fisheries biologists or someone with good local experience for their forage species options for these bass. I am assuming you want good bass growth, numbers and decent sized fish 2-4 Lbs.
I am sure if you add the bass you've mentioned your existing minnow forage base will soon disappear; I've seen it happen numerous times. With 40% to 60% weed cover the minnows might now have a chance. As I've said many times before, I don't like mixing LMB and SMB in the same small water body. One will become dominate over the long haul & it is usu. the LMB. However it IS your pond and do what you are convinced is right and you too will learn over time. Experience is a great teacher!

Hey Rowly,

Bill is right, you would need lots of cover for minnows to have a fighting chance and get large enough to be a 'worthwhile' meal for the larger fish. I have a whack of cover, some weeded areas and many cover structures like old tire bundles, and pallets/skids in my pond to allow plenty of hiding area and spawning area for the minnows. I also have an area where I put in some rolls of old snow fencing, the wood kind. Makes a great place for them to spawn with tons of surface area. There are many varieties of minnow in my pond that have different habits, both in where they hide and when they spawn, some are slow... some are faster. I'll know in a year or so which ones fair out the best. To make a go with minnows as a primary forage I figure you would need to upgrade your hiding & spawning areas to give them a fighting chance. In my case I have tons of breeding areas in my main pond but I also have other minnow breeding ponds that I can draw from to restock as needed. If you don't have something similar it may be a costly and short term way to feed the fish.
As Bob and Bill say, B-Gill and pumpkinseed will probably be your best bet for Big bass forage and I think you already have some in there if I am not mistaken. of course if you can get minnows to last all the better.

Now this deal on the mature bass.... sounds kind of scary to me... not sure I would want to be giving away fishing rights to my pond/lake and the responsibilities etc that come with what they are planning. Tournaments, even catch and release could do a real number on your pond. Plus there is the issue of insurance/liability. Not trying to be negative, but I guess I am not sure on this idea... suppose it depends on your goals... long and short term.

Oh, and my thoughts on LMB and SMB in the same pond... have any crawfish? If not... get some in there... they will take alot of the SMB pressure leaving other food sources to the LMB.

Bill- Just wait until I finish my minnow hybridization plans and start pumping out 6" 1/8 pound mudminnows!!! I'll have everyone singing the praises of Pottsy's mutant minnows!

Pottsy: Consider this your first order for 6" mudminnows; Umbra limi I assume. I've occassionally seen 4.5"-5" specimens but not very frequently. How prolofic are they in a pond setting; you get much productivity out of them?

Hey Bill, yes they are Umbra Limi (Central Mudminnow). They are fairly prolific... by that I mean at least a couple of spawns with decent numbers. Nothing like the dace or shiners or their ilk though. Strangly enough despite their nature of being a bottom dweller and hiding in the mud etc. I have found that they are drawn to moving water. (When I opened up my damn in the spring they came pooring in from the marshy area below my pond, them and stiklebacks). In the spring I will try and trap some out of the main pond and see how/if they faired.

Bill and Pottsy: I'm getting a little ahead of myself and maybe I assumed to much in general. The primary forage base will be native bluegill and to a lesser extent pumkinseed sunfish. I stocked the lake in the spring of 2002 with a large number from various bodies of water (good gene pool base)and have a great number of spawn as a result. Example, in the fall if I approached a weed bed on the waterbike, the water would rain with activity, I could see large schools of these fish throughout the lake and growing good. The minnows, if added would be just a supplementary food source for the perch, larger bluegill and of cource some small LMB and SMB if required at their various growing stages. (I'm adding structure to the ice at this time both dense and loose form). Now I'm wondering if I would be adding to many species of forage fish to the biomass and what it can hold adequately (Bill earlier discussion with walleye)? Should bluegill, pumpkinseed and perch be enough of a varied forage base for all the fish requirements including the LMB and SMB. Do I need increased minnow fry and fingerling to promote a healthy environment for all or just let the bluegill spawn and create most of the forage base for the lake's requirements? My goal is to have a good fishing environment for large perch, bluegill and some big bass, but not necessarily trophy bass. Thanks again.

Rowly

Rowly - Currently you seem to be on a pretty good path to a decent fishery. Adding or introducing some DIFFERENT species of forage minnows/shiners would be okay in the spring. Thinning and predation from your existing bass and perch will limit the numbers in spring. New species of minnows/shiners may inhabit a niche/portion of the pond that is not being used by the existing species. See Pottsy, he may be able to advise or supply you with a different prey species since he raises some in separate ponds.. Competition will determine who the winners are based on the specific features of your pond.

I was just getting a little concerned when you started talking about next spring stocking excessive numbers of walleyes or the addition of numerous "adult type" LMB from the ONT Bass Fed. into your new well established pond. I would allow the existing fish some MORE time to grow and reproduce at least another season. Reexamine the conditions, the overall growth, and which species are doing best. Make a few minor adjustments if necessary. After a year or two, and then if you want or need some additional predators, add a few at a time and see how your pond system responds.

Always be cautious about adding lots of predators at one time. They can clean out and quickly damage a well established system in short order. Use a little patience grasshopper!

Don't jeopardise all the good work you've accomplished so far by getting in a hurry for lots of big fish. You will be surprised how fast the existing SMB & LMB will grow next year with an excessive amount of forage. That growth will be a lot less if you introduce too many more predators next spring. It's the rare pond that has too much forage. If you can get some pellet trained walleye next fall, I think you could safely add 80-120 in 16 acres. Give them a couple years and see how they "do" and compete and grow with the bass; they will be a bonus fish. Rowly, How big are your bass now? This will determine how big the added walleye will have to be.

Bill , again great advice and always making me think as my post grad professor did. The spawned LMB bass are 4-6" in length this fall. If this was your lake how many adult LMB would you add in the spring before spawning. Remembering, I have a good small base of 2002 SMB with the few #'s of adults added. My concern is I have a tremendous amount of established perch and now I have a few thousand adult bluegill with 1 year spawn with little predators but maybe the larger perch and all that spawning area. However, I still have many small perch but also various larger sizes up to 14". Hopefully, the weather will cooperate and I will get on the ice over Xmas and see what size perch I can pull out while icefishing?

My concern is this-sometimes I can look into the lake and it looks like a well stocked fish aquarium- good for an aquarium but how good for a lake with maybe not enough predators? Back to your answer BIG GRASSHOPPER -shouldn't I add some mature LMB to the equation (say 100 to 150) to help this out or still do I need to have patience for another year then maybe I can walk on those forage fish out onto the island?

Decisions/decisions but what an outcome if correctly done right the first time. Looking forward to your next twist. HA!HA!

Rowly

Pottsy, can you expound on Bill's comment on the type of minnow(s) that may exist in a niche area of the lake not habitated by my predator fish eg mudminnows, dace, creek chub, common shiner etc native to our area and climate.

Thanks in advance.

Rowly

Rowly - Post a summary of the all the fish you added since buying the porperty. I went back and scanned all your previous posts for what fish you have in the pond and I still don't have an acurate picture. Here's what I've got so far.
1. Original populations of y. perch and rock bass. With probably a few existing LMB that resulted in some subadults around 6"-8" in Sept 02; or tremendous growth for Ontario waters from 2002 hatch. Also numerous 3"-5" LMB definately from 2002 hatch. Added 20 adult LMB in spring 2002? Sizes? Can't imagine that the past owner/fishermen just stocked perch and rock bass. Some day large bass and possibly lg. pike
will show up in your catches.

2. Numerous young of year (YOY) bgill up to 3" from 100 adults stocked in June 02.

3. Lots of YOY yel.perch from original spawners some 12"-14"). Any number estimate of perch 8"-10" long? Ice fishing may help here. Should do a harvest of all perch caught 8"-11" long this winter. Stock your freezer.

4. Rock Bass estimates and sizes??

5. Smallmouth bass hatch in 2002. How many adults & what sizes were added?
6. Have you ever sampled the minnow populations and what types are present?. Pottsy could help with this next year.
7. No walleyes yet; correct?
8. Add anything else about fish sizes or types in your pond that may help.

Bill, here is the lake/fish summary;
1. Spring time bought property from a older lady who didn't like water or the potential for this lake-wasn't used-Lake naturally had many perch and rock bass in large quantities with all sizes but mostly small in the 3-5" range with a. 10-15% only in the large range. Didn't see any predator fish at all LMB or SMB but caught hundreds of perch and rock bass only. Later in the summer I saw some SMB 6-8" swimming in swallow water looking for YOY and YOY SMB first schooling then becoming predators and independantly swimming looking for fry and growing well from 1 1/2" to the 3-5" in late fall viewing. Caught many of these fish in a dip net and to my surprise they were SMB not LMB. (smaller mouths not extending beyond the eye). Lake was developed and started 12 years ago when they started removing the sand and gravel creating approx 1 1/2 acres per year of open enclosed water with no streams, just spring fed and ground water.
2. Thousands YOY bluegill up to 3" (late fall)from a few approx 100 adult stocked in May/June 02. Also bought 600 mature bluegill in fall that have the colour of the green sunfish in Bob Lusk picture you commented on elsewhere-very dark
3. Many yoy perch and rock bass as well. Estimate 10-15% large perch 8"+. I will harvest all perch 8"+ when icefishing. Should I return the extra large perch 12-14" for breeding stock as one would do with bass?
4. Many rock bass but not as many as perch. Again mostly smaller but 10-15% large 6"+. The kids caught one rock bass at 12". I am removing all rock bass when caught. Will I be able to control their numbers in time with this method and further bass predatation?
5.I added 14 mature (12-16") SMB caught elsewhere but had YOY spotted later in the summer as they grew and searched the shoreline for live food. Therefore, I believe there must have been a few mature SMB already in the lake before I added mine. Based on the fact I seen 6-8" SMB and caught a few in fall (probably 2-3 years old?)
6. I believe there is no minnow population in the lake, only YOY perch that shape and size similar to minnows. I caught and added a few dace and chub minnows from a nearby stream totalling 30 in the spring 2002.
7. Yes no walleye added, but I caught and added 30 mature LMB from another gravel pit from 12-16" throughout the late spring and early summer.
8. 10-15% weed cover from common pondweed mostly, concentrated in various areas on lake so not many batches but thick in those defined area, to provide a good cover for forage fish to grow and hide. I can watch very large schools of fingerling move from batches of weedcover to open water to other weedcover a short distance away. Thousands and thousands of YOY from bluegill/perch and rockbass.
I would like to control these quantities of YOY before they get out of hand but should I wait another year and another YOY for perch/bluegill and rock bass? If I were to add say 150 mature LMB in the early spring 2003 would this create major problems to the biomass? My goal is to have large perch, good numbers of various size bluegill for a forage base and some eating ourselves, the removal of the rock bass if possible or at least the reduction in numbers, the development of a good population of both LMB and SMB with some big but not necessarily trophy size. The introduction of some minnows to help feed the perch and other fish if required. In time adding a third predator fish, walleye say 200 6-8" fingerling to later catch and eat-maybe even reproduce???? Adding some structure this winter both dense and loose form by adding Xmas trees grouped 3-5 together and pallets nailed together forming a triangle- both will be weighted with a concrete blocks (to concentrate fish in desired areas for fishing). Already added some native white water lilly last fall in defined areas hoping they will not spread into deeper water greater than 5'for the LMB?

Thanks in advance to all and Merry Xmas and Happy New Year. I hope this helps Bill and sorry for the run on.

Rowly

Rowly - Length run-on is okay, it provides more details.
1. Your SMB seem to be "holding their own" so far with existing rock bass and perch. The SMB spawns at least in the last two yrs are a good sign. When panfish fish are over abundant bass nests usu fail due to excessive panfish predation of SMB eggs and fry. So indications are that rock bass and perch populations are currently not much out of balance. You probably are not catching adult SMB because they have ample forage.

2. Personally, I'm not sure about adding the extra 600 bgill in the fall of 2002. Positives and negatives for this one. It appears the 100 bgill added in the spring of 2002 provided plenty of small YOY bgill all summer and fall. I'm concerned about possible overpopulation of bgill next year from now 700 adults instead of 100.

3. Return all 12"-14" perch? If it was my pond I would return them for extra growth. . Some would remove them cause they are old and will soon die of natural causes. Myself I prefer 'dandy' perch to catch occassionally. A 14" perch can't grow to 15" if it is in the frying pan. Hopefully you can grow some to 15"-16" before they die. I think perch 8"-10" are easier to fillet than the largest ones who more quickly dull my knife due to scales and pin bones. Plus the smaller perch taste a little better. Bigger perch are also eating larger forage which is currently good in your case.

4.Rock bass are often considered a pest. They do eat quite a bit of small fish for their diet. If they are not "grubby", which they often are, they are pretty good eating. At least the ones I always ate from Canada were tasty. They are not encouraged in ponds because larger rock bass compete heavily with young bass for food items like small fish. Most pondmeisters want strong bass populations. R bass not all bad. I would rather eat rock bass than LMB. Smallest rock bass will eat lots of bass fry and compete with bgill & perch. I don't think you will ever get them severely thinned with just fishing and LMB predation. I don't think they are real prolific but I not sure. I will look it up. I don't have a lot of experience with their behavior, reproductive ability when in competition with the other fish species that are in your pond. You are on your own here.
5. AS I said above SMB seem to be doing okay since you have successful reproduction and fair growth. Numbers of breeding adults are the current question.
6. Dace, if they survived, will do you lots of good as a forage species. Doubtfull any survived due to all your predators of these small sized minnows. Only future sampling will answer this. Chubs, if they were truly chubs (species??), in my opinion were a mistake. They eat a lot of the same things (often small fish) as small perch, bass, and rock bass; just another direct competitor in your pond. You got them from a stream or moving water habitat. Chubs are usu not a successful lake or pond fish which is why they are most commonly found in streams. Most of them only spawn successfully in streams requiring special conditions. I doubt if they will spawn in your pond. Probably okay forage if they spawn. Shiners are a better choice than chubs; smaller mouths & less competition with panfish/yoy bass than chubs would be.
7. If the LMB were added in 2002 after they spawned elsewhere then you do not have any YOY LMB predator pressure on the large panfish hatches of 2002. A concern.

8. 150 LMB in 2003?? Since you seem to like LMB and since you've introduced bgill and want rock bass control I think you should add more LMB in 2003. The biggest question is what size LMB and how many to add?? Sample your largest 2002 year class bgill and multiply the length by 3 to 3.5. The answer is the proper size of LMB to stock. Example 3" bgill x 3 or 3.5 = 9"-10.5". I think you will find that it is sizes of 8"-10" you need to add. Try not to stock LMB much bigger than 10-12" because they will want to eat larger food items than 2"-3" bluegill or something else the equivalent width/body depth such as 5-6" perch. They may prefer the perch due to body shape & behavior. Numbers/acre??? If each lives which they should if handled properly, then 10-12/acre should be more than plenty for the 2003 stocking. Since your water is low productivity I would go more for 6-10/acre. Don't forget you have an existing unknown number of adult SMB which will also exert a predation pressure. The 160 (8"-10") LMB will eat approx 1000 to 1400 lbs of forage the first year; allowing for the shorter growing season. That is a large mass of forage fish being eliminated from your pond !! That's easily one-half ton! Do you need to reduce your forage by that amount? By adding 150 to 160 bass you should see a big reduction in small fish in the fall of 2003. Adjust this LMB number (150-160) accordingly based on how much forage you want removed. Your existing 30 adult bass from 2002 stocking will provide plenty of YOY bass in 2003 to control 2003 panfish spawns. Re-examine your forage density in the spring before adding the LMB. Your larger perch, rock bass and SMB can thin out quite a bit of small prey during late fall, winter, and early spring. You can also thin a fair amount of smaller fish by trapping. Keep in mind that you also should remove some fish by fishing next year; easily 40-60 lbs (2.5-4 lbs/ac).

Get yourself some minnow traps and use them regularly to monitor your small fish populations. Minnows/shiners, young perch, young rock bass, and yoy SMB will readily go into small mesh (1/4")baited traps. YOY LMB rarely go in traps. Traps are a good way to thin out small rock bass; they trap well.
Every fish species you add into your pond the more complicated this thing becomes.

Sorry I didn't get a chance to chime in sooner Rowly... been out of town.

In my opinion the best minnow choice for your pond and the one with the greatest chance of survival, (And great reprocuction rates), is the bridle shiner. Mudminnows inhabit a different type of area and may survive some predation... but in a pond that is spring fed and as clear as I believe yours is, the mudminnows woudn't fare so well.
Creek chub are kind of slow, certainly the larger they get, as Bill says they may or may not reproduce,, decent forage for LMB and walleye but I think they fit a similar food niche as the perch. Dace, promarily Red Belly in our area are a decent choice, though not always as effective a reproducer as I would like. I like most shiner varieties but certainly my best luck is with Bridle Shiners... spawn like mad and vary in size from 1/2" to 2.5" approx. and can provide feed for a few different predator species depending on their size. They do like pallets as spawning cover so try and release them in areas where they can have a chance. (Oh and new fry swim in vunerable groups for a few weeks... so you might see a sudden increase in Perch/R-Bass sizes)

The question about Rock Bass spawning rates... I don't have any specific information, just what I have seen in other lakes and I think Bill's hypothesis that they are not overly prolific is accurate.

Bill and Pottsy; Sorry for the delay but I took a few days off around the Xmas season. Thanks for the info and I will use it wisely over the next few months leading into the spring. I will indeed watch the small fish #'s before adding any 8-12" LMB. Looking forward to the warmer weather now!!!! I have been doing a little ice fishing in the lake but most of the yellow perch caught are small in the 3-5" range at 80% of the total catch but look healthy. Thanks again

Rowly

Rowly - Do you have the option of this spring and early summer of catching some 12"-14" walleye for transport back to your pond? Maybe move just 3-4 each trip for a total of 12-20. Haul them short distances (20-30mi) in 1/2 barrel or large cooler. Good excuse to go fishing often. I would rather see you put them in, instead of numerous 10" LMB. Maybe a combination of the two species. Both will clean up on the 3"-4" perch but adding walleye would be more toward your walleye fishery goal. You don't need a drastic thinning of the 3"-4" perch. But your ice fishing catches are telling us that the 3"-4" size group is a little too abundant. But if you add a few predators & the resident bass help thin and you thin a couple hundred by fishing and then several hundred by trapping, you should be able to get that size group thinned enough to produce some fairly normal growth from them in 2003. Then next Dec. they should be 5"-7" and then 7"-9" in Dec. of 2004 & getting ready to be guests for dinner.

Bill, some of the best river walleye fishing is less than 5 miles away in the Thames River. I'm told this site is one of the best on the river. I will try to catch a few walleye this spring and add to the lake a few at a time until I get around a couple dozen... The season for walleye shuts down between March 15 to April 15 each year to help with the walleye spawn in the river so maybe I will start in early February to see if they are starting to arrive for their spawn. Would you suggest I milk a few females and put in a small pucket then add the male sperm into the dry mix to see if I can help create fertilization, then add to the riprap rock along the shallow eastern edge of the lake for some westerly wind wave action etc. to see if they will hatch in the eddies within the small rock areas. At worst I may have some fun and later a few walleye fingerling????? I guess I better get my walleye jigs ready to go fishing. Thanks and looking forward to your next post.

Rowly

Rowly - That's great news. Good thing you live so close to the fishing grounds. I see no reason why the river walleyes will not adapt well to your pond situation. You mentioned something in an earlier post about river vs lake walleye but I see no problem with the river type fish in your pond esp for predation purposes. Back in the 80's I carefully moved some river walleye into my old pond and they did fine. If the law allows keep even some smaller walleye than 13" but you prob. will not get many of these since they are too small for the spawn run. 16"ers are also okay if you don't want to eat them. However they will be harder to transport. I would not transplant fish bigger than 17-18". The smaller wallery are the ones you want for eating those small perch/bgill. Be careful not to keep fish too long in your containers and donot crowd them for very long, colder air and water temps help here because colder water holds more oxygen. Important note, just because a fish swims away when released DOES NOT mean he will live. Many have latent death due to poor handling, crowding and the stress. Most often these do not float. Future fishing will tell the tale. You are much better off moving fewer fish on each trip than crowding more fish and them later dying.

River walleye are used to appropriate sized forage and will be happy among those small perch, rockbass & bgill. You can try stripping & fertilizing some eggs. Deposit them as planned and cross your fingers.

I doubt you will catch many in Feb. a few residents or some very early jacks. Mar 1 to 14 may get you a few but prob not any females ready to strip eggs. Take a smaller female home let her spawn naturally. They will do a better job spawning than your hand mixing anyway. If not this year then they will spawn next. During our walleye run some hatcheries get eggs/milt from the catches of fishermen. The river walleye run here does not do much till the water gets 47 -49 deg.

Bill, thanks for your post and I will keep you all posted. These river walleye are walleye that travel up from Lake Erie to spawn in this long river system before returning to the lake. Lets see when I can start catching these smaller walleye maybe the smaller ones will spawn later in the spring after the April 15 restriction from fishing but I will try in early March .

Rowly